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    Vladimir79
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    Arjun News Thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:04 am

    India will start testing a second version of the tank Arjun summer 2011

    Organization Defense Research and Development (DRDO) of India in the summer and winter of 2011 will test an improved version of the main battle tank Arjun Mark II, reports IANS. Test tank held a year after the government and the Ministry of Defence of India approved the establishment of a second version Arjun. Details of upcoming inspections are still unknown.

    Arjun Mk.II will differ from the basic version of the tank's ability to launch anti-tank missiles through the gun barrel. New laser-guided missiles are capable of destroying enemy armored vehicles at a distance of eight kilometers. In addition, the tank will get improved active-reactive armor, guidance systems and surveillance systems, night vision and communications equipment.

    Currently in service with Indian Army worth 124 Arjun tanks first version. In mid-May 2010, shortly after comparative tests Arjun and T-90 assembled in Russia, India's army has ordered 124 of the tank, which will also be delivered in the first version.

    Arjun is able to reach speeds of up to 72 miles an hour down the highway and 40 miles per hour over rough terrain. Tank equipped with laser guidance and night vision devices. The main armament of the tank is represented by 120-mm rifled gun. In addition, the tank

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:50 am

    Rifled gun?

    Even the British are changing to smooth bore aren't they?

    What sort of HESH round does India use?

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:54 pm

    Oh Gosh!
    Their Arjun will be the main competitor against our Al-Khalid
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khalid_%28tank%29
    & we use the 125 mm smoothbore gun!! with all kinds of modern self-stabilised rounds
    Last time if I recall the Indian army generals weren't at all happy with the suspension system of Arjun
    In 2007 the Arjun tank was fielded during the Ashwamedha exercise in the deserts of Rajasthan.[42] The army was extremely unhappy with the tank, citing 14 defects that included "deficient fire control system", "inaccuracy of its guns", "low speeds in tactical areas" and "inability to operate over 50 degrees Celsius".[43] "The Army is now faced with a troubling prospect: inducting a lumbering, misfiring, vintage design tank like the Arjun, and that, too, in large numbers".[41] This, after DRDO over-shot Arjun’s project deadline by 16 years — from 1984 to 1995, finally closing the project only in 2000 — and the cost over-run is almost 20 times the original estimate. This is the highest percentage over-run for any DRDO project.[4
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjun_%28tank%29

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    Arjun Mk2 ΜΒΤ

    Post  Austin on Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:46 pm

    Latest FORCE magazine has an update on Arjun Mk2 thats under development , posting it in full , thought it would be interesting to share

    Quantum Leap
    Arjun Mk2 will be more expensive with higher import content than its predecessor
    By Prasun K. Sengupta



    For all intents and purposes, the Arjun Mk2 main battle tank (MBT) — currently under development since mid-2007, will be more expensive and have a higher imported content than its predecessor, the Arjun Mk1. But in terms of mobility, protection and firepower, the Mk2 variant will come closest to what Indian Army HQ wants: an MBT with highly enhanced crew protection and maximum survivability in high-intensity, fire-saturated combat environments. To achieve this, the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Avadi-based Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) has roped in both Israel Military Industries (IMI) and Elbit Systems of Israel, with the former being responsible for improving the existing Arjun Mk1’s design plus mobility and fuel consumption, redesigning and modifying the various components of the MBT’s hull and turret, and providing consultancy for improving production-line processes. Elbit Systems, on the other hand, will enhance the MBT’s firepower and its accuracy, and provide survivability systems and air-conditioning hardware. The existing Arjun Mk1 MBT, which was formally inducted into the Army’s 75 Armoured Regiment on March 12, comes powered by a MTU 838Ka-501 diesel engine (rated at 1,400hp) coupled to a RENK RK-304A transmission, and can achieve a maximum speed of 70 km/hr (43 mph) and a cross-country speed of 40 km/h (25 mph). A total of 124 Mk1 variants are on order, and will be followed by 124 Mk2 variants, which were ordered by Army HQ on May 17 last year. The Arjun Mk2 will incorporate a total of 93 upgrades, including 13 major improvements. Rollout of the first prototype will take place by this June, and by 2013, the first 30 production-standard Arjun Mk2s will roll out from the Avadi-based, ministry of defence-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF).



    Work on developing the Arjun Mk2 began in the second half of 2007 soon after joint R&D contracts were inked between the CVRDE and the consortium of IMI and Elbit Systems. On October 31 that year, the CVRDE floated domestic and global expressions of interest for the co-development of a 1,500hp compact high specific power output diesel engine incorporating a state-of-the-art direct fuel injection system, digital electronic controls, turbo-charging, charge air cooling, safety controls and a pressurised multi-stage air-cleaning system; and for a hydro-kinetic automatic transmission with four forward and two reverse gears. Respondents to the CVRDE included Finland-based Wartsila (offering its V8X-1500 1,500hp hyperbar diesel engine coupled with either SESM of France’s ESM-500 transmission or US-based Detroit Diesel Allison’s X-1100-3B transmission), US-based General Dynamics Land Systems offering the EuroPowerPack comprising MTU of Germany’s MT-883 engine along with Renk’s HSWL-295TM transmission, UK-based Perkins proposing its CV12 Condor diesel engine coupled to with the ESM-500 transmission, and US-based Cummins offering a customised QSK-38 liquid-cooled, direct-injection engine coupled to the ESM-500. In late 2009, a combination of the QSK-38/ESM-500 powerpack was selected as the winner, following which Cummins India began customising this powerpack design. The ESM-500 automatic transmission, with five forward and two reverse gears, contains a planetary gearbox with shifting, steering and braking systems. It is also equipped with a hydrodynamic steering system, which allows

    different turning radii depending on engine speed and selected gear. The braking system contains of two stages. As a parking brake and for a speed of up to 35kph air cooled disk brakes are used. At higher speeds a retarder is used. In addition, the transmission is equipped with a power takeoff for the cooling fans of the powerpack. Also, a hydrokinetic retarder can slow the MBT down at a decelleration rate of 7 metres/square second (0.7g), which can be very useful at the last moment before it could be hit. Supplementing this powerpack will be an indigenously developed auxiliary power unit (APU), which will provide power when the MBT is on ‘silent watch’ for battery recharging and night observation, with full systems operating while the main engine is shut down.

    For ensuring MBT survivability, the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) — located in Kanchanbagh, Hyderabad — has developed a Mk2 variant of its Kanchan modular armour, which was made by sandwiching composite panels (ceramic, alumina, fibre- glass and nickel-alloy) between rolled homogenous armour (RHA) plates to defeat APFDS or HEAT rounds. At the same time, the DRDO’s Pune-based Composites Research Centre (CRC) and the Research and Development Establishment, Engineers [R&D E(E)], have developed multi-layered multi-functional fibre-reinforced polymer (FRP) composite hull/turret sub-structures at much lower weights in comparison with metallic counterparts. More than 40 per cent weight savings over steel hull structures have been achieved. Also developed for the Arjun Mk2 is co-cured composites integral armour (CIA), which comprises ceramic tiles and rubber sandwiched between two FRP composites layers. While the outer FRP composite layer acts as a cover and provides confinement, the ceramic layer provides primary protection against ballistic impact, and the inner FRP composite layer acts as the structural part as well as secondary energy absorbing mechanism. The rubber layer isolates stiff and brittle ceramic tiles from structural member.



    The CVRDE, with IMI’s help, has also redesigned the Arjun Mk1’s turret to incorporate modular sloped armour fittings, and has developed a slat-armour package to protect the MBT against anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) attacks. It functions by placing a rigid barrier around the vehicle, which causes the shaped-charge warhead (which uses a shaped-explosion rather than kinetic energy) to explode at a relatively safe distance. For protecting the Arjun Mk2 against tandem-charge PRGs and guided anti-tank missiles, the CVRDE and IMI have co-developed a lightweight non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) package, comprising tiles in which two metal plates sandwich an inert liner, such as rubber. When struck by a shaped-charge’s metal jet, some of the impact energy is dissipated into the inert liner layer, and the resulting high-pressure causes a localised bending or bulging of the plates in the area of the impact. As the plates bulge, the point of jet impact shifts with the plate-bulging, increasing the effective thickness of the armour.

    For ensuring fool-proof protection against new-generation anti-armour guided-missiles, the Arjun Mk2 will incorporate both multi-threat warning sensors and an active protection system (APS). The former, supplied by Elbit Systems, comprises four E-LWS sensors that can detect, categorise and pinpoint laser sources, including rangefinders, designators, beam-riders, and infra-red illuminators. E-LWS also enables direction indication for all threats, as well as audio and visual warnings. It is immune to reflection, gunfire, lightning, fire and self-electro-optical operations. The Iron Fist APS, being supplied by IMI, uses two fixed radar sensors to detect potential threats and measures distance and trajectory for providing the APS’ fire-control system (FCS) with data for calculation of engagement plans. The FCS uses two ELTA Systems-built conformal, distributed radars and an infra-red sensor called Tandir, developed by Elbit Systems. When a threat is identified as imminent, an explosive projectile interceptor is launched toward it from either of the two twin-tube rotating launchers housing fin-stabilised launch cannisters. The interceptor, shaped similar to a small mortar bomb, is designed to defeat the threat even when flying in very close proximity. Iron Fist can handle multiple targets simultaneously with different intercept methods, including multiple countermeasures fired at two simultaneous threats at the same sector. Unlike other systems, the Iron Fist uses only the blast effect to defeat the threat, crushing the soft components of a shaped-charge or deflecting and destabilising the guided-missile or kinetic rod in their flight. The interceptor is made of combustible material, and is fully consumed in the explosion. Without the risk of shrapnel, the Iron Fist APS thus provides an effective, close-in protection for MBTs operating in dense, urban environment. Finally, a mobile camouflage system has been developed and integrated into the Arjun Mk2 in collaboration with Sweden’s Barracuda Camouflage Ltd to reduce the vehicle’s signature against all known sensors and smart munitions.

    For enhancing structural survivability and firing accuracy, the Arjun Mk2 will do away with the existing electro-hydraulic turret control system (which is susceptible to impact damage and can cause a fire hazard) and will instead use a totally electronic modular electric gun and turret drive stabilisation (EGTDS) system supplied by Elbit Systems. The EGTDS uses azimuth/elevation motor drives with extremely rapid response time, low-voltage power, stabilised modes of operation, and manual back-up drives in both elevation and traverse. A motor drive-control unit transforms the power supply into two 3-phase systems. These supply and control the servo motors for alignment, stabilisation and slave mode of the turret/wea­pon according to the input signals of the sensors, control handles and active sight. The system assures increased safety since it eliminates the need for the hazardous, highly flammable hydraulic fluids. In addition, it offers smooth tracking at all speeds for very heavy turrets and guns and at extreme turret gun positions, while low power consumption leads to low infra-red signature as well as low-noise levels.

    The Arjun Mk2 will also incorporate a brand-new Elbit-designed Commander’s panoramic sight (CAPS) — a dual axis stabilised line-of-sight, remote-operated, periscopic system for independent target acquisition, battlefield surveillance and main gun firing in a ‘hunter-killer’ auto-track mode. The CAPS will use a SAGEM-built Matis-STD thermal imager that operates in the 3-5 micron bandwidth, while the gunner’s sight will employ a THALES-built Catherine-FC thermal imager (operating in the 8-12 micron bandwidth. The Arjun Mk2’s turret will also housed an integrated battle management system (BMS) designed by Elbit Systems (and licence-built by Bharat Electronics Ltd), which provides rapid communications networking between the tactical tank commander and his subordinate units. It will enable the tank commander to plan missions, navigate, and continuously update situational awareness. The system will also record data for operational debriefing by using a digital data recorder, which will record and restore sight images and observation data collected during missions. This data can be shared with other elements, using the same network with the BMS, to report enemy targets. Such a concept is rapidly becoming an essential part of the digitised land forces integrated battlefield concept, combining MBTs, anti-armour teams, and attack helicopters in combined arms operations.

    The Arjun Mk2’s loader will be able to load the 120mm rifled-bore main gun from a fully automated, fire-proof magazine, which will accommodate up to 10 ready rounds and deliver up to four types of ammunition types to the loader. In addition to APFSDS and HESH rounds, the Arjun Mk2 will make use of IMI-built APAM munitions designed to neutralize — especially in urban built-up terrain — tank-killer squads lurking with lethal anti-tank weapons. The APAM uses the proven concept of anti-personnel munitions based on controlled fragmentation. It deploys sub-munition shrapnel at defined intervals, covering a wide lethal area against soft targets. Each fragment is shaped to have enough kinetic energy to penetrate conventional body armour, or other materials. Also going on board the Arjun Mk2 is the laser-guided LAHAT anti-armour/anti-helicopter round, whose Israel Aerospace Industries-built target designator will be integrated with the MBT’s fire-control system. The tandem warhead-equipped LAHAT has a range of 8km when launched from a ground platform, and up to 13km, when deployed from high elevation. The missile has a 0.7 metre CEP when hitting its target at an angle of 30 degrees. Using the semi-active laser homing guidance method, LAHAT can be designated by the MBT’s gunner or through external designation from ground, mobile, or airborne observers. Firing the round requires minimal exposure in the firing position, and can be directed through the CAPS by only maintaining line — of-sight during missile flight. The missile’s trajectory can be preselected for either top attack (against MBT) or direct attack (against helicopter) engagement.

    For improving crew comfort, the Arjun Mk2 will incorporate an Elbit Systems-supplied individual crew and equipment cooling system (ICECS), while will provide cooled and dried air from a special air conditioner to air-cooled overalls or vests. The air will naturally cool the upper torso of each crewman. Also being acquired from Elbit through a transfer-of-technology agreement for the MBT crew are regular/fire-resistant air-cooled overalls, NBC protected air-cooled overalls, and air-cooled compact vests. AS for tank tracks, the Arjun Mk2 will, just like the Mk1, make use of Germany-based Diehl Remscheid’s DST 570V tracks, whose basic components, like the track links, sprocket wheels, guide wheels, running rollers, support rollers, running pads, traction aids, connectors, bolts, mono block-body with integral centre guide, rubberised track pads, and grouser, are all being licence-built by Larsen & Toubro.

    Training Aids
    CAE of Canada will design and supply a comprehensive suite of Arjun Mk2 MBT training systems enhances combat effectiveness by offering systematic training in a real-time environment through advanced simulation techniques. Earlier, in 2009 CAE had developed and delivered the initial suite of Arjun Mk1 training systems to efficiently and cost-effectively train the driver, gunner and commander. CAE’s suite of Arjun Mk1 training systems currently offers standalone training for the driver and gunner; turret-level training for the gunner and commander; integrated MBT-level training for the gunner, commander and driver; and troop-level training by networking Arjun Mk1 simulators to rehearse troop tactics, movement and joint operations. The Arjun Mk1’s driver trainer provides ab-initio driving and procedural training to individual drivers. Mounted on a six degree-of-freedom (DoF) motion platform, the driver trainer emulates the MBT’s interior cabin with all driver station controls. CAE is also developing a desktop-based Arjun classroom trainer for procedural and familiarisation training. CAE has also developed a comprehensive suite of Arjun Mk1 gunnery training devices to train personnel as they develop gunnery skills and rehearse for target identification, tracking, lasing, and firing drills. CAE’s suite of gunnery trainers includes two separate types and levels of training devices. The desktop gunnery procedures trainer, also called the Agastya simulator, supports initial training in handling the gunner station and firing procedures. The trainee uses MBT-specific controls just like in the actual MBT for familiarisation and procedural training. The turret simulator replicates the interior of the gunner’ and commander’ stations of the MBT. Mounted on a six-DoF motion platform, the turret simulator features a 220-degree by 40-degree open-hatch visual display to provide trainees with the high-fidelity visual cues required for gunnery training.

    All Arjun Mk1 training systems can be networked to provide initial and continuation training to the commanders, gunners and drivers at the individual-, crew-, and troop-levels. Along with developing individual skills, the driver and turret simulators create a team environment to support the development of crew teamwork, coordination and tactical skills, decision-making and planning, and crew communications. Through effective training and rehearsal of these skills, the crew can thus improve its proficiency in working as a team and as part of an entire troop during combat operations. The MBT training systems include CAE’s Medallion-6000 visual system with a detailed and realistic external environment view of actual MBT operations, sound simulation system that produces sounds heard during MBT operations and in synchronisation with the motion and visual cues in the training device, simulation host system for software management and software sub-systems that simulate MBT behaviour in real-time operations, content rich geo-specific databases, instructor stations to conduct training exercises and offer evaluation solutions, interface electronic units (IEU) that provide links between MBT crew controls and simulation software, and networking to connect the Arjun Mk1 driving and turret simulators. The training systems provide instructors with an intuitive, easy-to-use interface that enables the set-up of lesson parameters and trainee exercises, monitoring of the progress of the exercise, and full exercise control. The instructor can select the scenario (including target designation), insert malfunctions, and record and replay the exercise. Furthermore, the instructor is able to access the same views as the trainee, such as control of own and enemy tracks. Gunner’s training exercises can be conducted both in plains and desert terrain to include bore sighting, calibration, static tank to static target, static tank to moving target, moving tank to static target, moving tank to moving target, and moving tank to moving target firing practices. The Arjun Mk1 training systems can also be fitted in air-conditioned ISO containers that can be easily transported to different training locations or in-theatre. They can also be modified with minimum adjustments for use with any infantry combat vehicle (ICV) gun, self-propelled artillery, present day tank guns and normal field artillery. The DRDO, meanwhile, has developed a software package called Visualisation with Enhanced Digital Elevation Model and Soil Profile Analysis for MBT Arjun Simulator (VEDSAR) to simulate the MBT’s performance in different kinds of terrain. It uses data from ISRO’s Cartosat-1A remote-sensing satellite, and will help in building a new project named Vehicular Interaction with Soil for Trafficability Assessment and Route-decision Aid (VISTAR), which will provide the army with information on the shortest possible distance between two points, and the kind of obstacles present on the terrain.

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  adyonfire4 on Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:26 pm

    The Arjun is said it to have higher number of imported components in the Mk-2 Version many French and Isareli Components will be used making it one of the top tanks but thats going to increase the cost to twice. study

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:41 am

    Are they licence producing the parts or just buying the parts and fitting them?

    Licence production of parts is expensive, but at least at the end of the day you are making the parts yourself in a factory you own so with the experience new parts can eventually be made of your own design in the same factories.

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  nightcrawler on Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:11 pm

    Don't know if its credible link
    http://www.forceindia.net/featurereport2.aspx

    it mentions all the latest armaments that are going to be fitted in Arjun; most like French contractors of LECREC

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    To digress from topic first pictures of Arjun Mk2 is released

    Post  Austin on Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:17 pm

    To digress from topic first pictures of Arjun Mk2 is released

    http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/2564/imgarjun2crop2.jpg

    These are i suppose initial version lacking all the features of Arjun Mk2.

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    FMBT replaced with Arjun

    Post  suryakiran on Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:53 am

    Army proposes to scrap Future Main Battle Tank: instead build successive models of the Arjun

    The indigenous project to build a Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) is being quietly buried by the army. Instead, the army’s tank directorate has proposed keeping faith with the home grown Arjun tank, while incrementally improving it into the future backbone of the army’s strike forces.

    Senior army sources tell Business Standard that the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which oversees the army’s tank force, has formally proposed that the Arjun be gradually improved through successive models --- Mark II, Mark III, Mark IV and so on --- rather than attempting a major technological leap into the unknown, which is what the FMBT would be.

    Full article

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:20 pm

    Came across this on youtube

    Failed Tank Series

    The Arjun Part-1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5aDMvZbTWY
    The Arjun Part-2 http://youtu.be/CxG0heg-TU4

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  dberwal on Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:40 pm

    Arjun MBT is not all that bad as it is made out to be but it has come very late for Indian Army and without the so called indigenous levels

    Producing a indigenous MBT is core to a country like India and Arjun is the first step in that direction. The inception of Arjun MBT programme and its first designs are a story of evolution form Vickers design to Leo design, with some components designed in-house, some sourced from US and Europe. With the sanction on India in 99 the US and European components had a BAN in place. This resulted in all the US components getting replaced by either new Indian or Israel components, surprisingly European components did not suffer from BAN as much as US ones did, if we leave out the germans.

    What has India gained by this project as of 2015. (My view)

    - The FCS and Gunners main sight of Arjun is atleast better than T-90 if i wanna compare (I am not saying T-90 sign is inferior), plus it is one component which is indigenous 100%. ( even a candidate for T-90 upgrade)

    - Suspension system and ride of Arjun is better (compared to anything in IA) and 100% indigenous, and it has already seen a design evolution in MK-II version

    - GUN is very accurate and 100% indigenous

    - Armour is 100% indigenous and comparable to best in the class.

    - Radio/ comm equipment is Indian

    - Wind and other sensors are Indian

    - APU is Indian

    What has India not-gained by this project as of 2015

    - Engine is 100% imported with and Indian turbocharger
    - Transmission is 100% imported
    - Panoramic sight is 100% Imported as of now

    With a engine and transmission imported from Germans and which can be susceptible to US presser and already seen that situation in 99, plus Germans are not reliable partners strategically just because of their susceptibleness to US pressure.

    The main reason Arjun will never go into mass production is its engine and transmission. No country will be fool enough to mass produce a vehicle (leave alone a AFV) who's engine and transmission is susceptible to outside pressure.

    Main reason that T-90 is the main battle tank of Indian Army is that it is not  susceptible to outside pressure.

    From an Indian perspective main thing is they have learned to design an MBT. The knowledge thus gain is very important.
    - They have learned to design and build a HULL even if influenced by western
    - They have learned to design a turret and turret systems with heavy influence of Leo 2.

    I am more interested in what is the next MBT design form India if any, but the Waite is gonna be 8-10 years.

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:52 pm

    dberwal , Good to have you on Russiadefence thumbsup

    Good Summary considering you have served the Indian Army and have some insight on how things work.

    As far as engine goes they can do lic production build from Germans but that will come at a cost with low production build but Germans have their own views on human rights and other issues , atleast a French engine would have been better.

    T-90 FCS being not as good as Arjun is granted because the T-90 FCS are 90's ones when IA actually bought the T-90 and lic built it and since then never upgraded any thing on the tank.

    For that matter the T-90 Bhim we build till date is mostly a early 90's product barring the Thales TI system. Even the Gun is early model 2A46M type.

    Most Russian T-90A compared to bhim have more modern FCS and Gun 2A46M4 types.

    The T-90MS has the most modern FCS of T-90 series with very high probability of hit 21 shots is what they mentioned of the 22 they fired hit the target compared to older gen having probability of hit of 15 for 22 hits.

    T-90MS under the skin a new tank with old designation , much like Su-35 is to a flanker what Su-27SM would be in its first avtar

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:08 pm

    T-90A has 2A46M5, the M4 is for T-80U's.

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:10 pm

    Werewolf wrote:T-90A has 2A46M5, the M4 is for T-80U's.

    I read the indian ones are 2A46M1 for T-90

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:14 pm

    Austin wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:T-90A has 2A46M5, the M4 is for T-80U's.

    I read the indian ones are 2A46M1 for T-90

    Most probably, haven't heared anything of 2A46M5 being exported to india nor any license production, so probably the first mod of the gun.

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  dberwal on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:22 pm

    Austin wrote:dberwal , Good to have you on Russiadefence  thumbsup

    Good Summary considering you have served the Indian Army and have some insight on how things work.
    I have not served in IA to be very clear but i did have and opportunity to see things over generations at a very close.

    Thanks Austin for making me join RD.


    As far as engine goes they can do lic production build from Germans but that will come at a cost with low production build but Germans have their own views on human rights and other issues , atleast a French engine would have been better.
    well if lic production was possible it would have happened, cost is not a matter when one is building national strategic capability.

    I believe Germans/ French/ US  are not ready or even part with this technology. Otherwise even chinese would have had it.

    T-90 FCS being not as good as Arjun is granted because the T-90 FCS are 90's ones when IA actually bought the T-90 and lic built it and since then never upgraded any thing on the tank.
    there is a generational gap in FCS, some would call it more fancy

    For that matter the T-90 Bhim we build till date is mostly a early 90's product barring the Thales TI system.  Even the Gun is early model 2A46M type.

    Most Russian T-90A compared to bhim have more modern FCS and Gun 2A46M4 types.


    The T-90MS has the most modern FCS of T-90 series with very high probability of hit 21 shots is what they mentioned of the 22 they fired hit the target compared to older gen having probability of hit of 15 for 22 hits.

    T-90MS under the skin a new tank with old designation , much like Su-35 is to a flanker what Su-27SM would be in its first avtar

    T-90 in indian service is called Bhishma and not Bhim.

    Bhim is T-6/G-6 turret on Arjun chassis. One of the best Tracked Howitzer ever made till date.

    In Indian History Bhishma vs Arjun is an epic battle. (both master is its class, Bhishma being the grandpa equivalent and Arjun being garndson)

    Bhim being equated to 1000 elephants in power.

    Indian weapon names only indian can relate to Smile

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:30 pm

    Indeed bhishma just slipped my mind.

    FCS of T-90 Bhishma would would almost half or full one generation behind compared to T-90 considering the time lag between the two induction was almost a decade and India had access to more modern FCS for Arjun.

    Considering we are in for an upgrade for T-72 , T-90 and even Arjun Mk2/Mk1 . it would probably be about 15 plus years we might see a new type in Indian Army.

    Unless we end up buying some fancy few 100 Armata or get FMBT done before it though its low probability for both

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:33 pm

    Arjun is a complete pile of lemons in every way.

    But the main thing is what India's learned from it all; India should scrap the program (actually it should have been scrapped looooong ago), accept the loss and take home the lessons and indigenous technologies developed, and advance with their next-gen tank program.

    dberwal has outlined all the individual good features and quality parts.
    Which may all be true, but it means nothing if the sum of those parts is a banger. One of engineering's many sins, making something bad out of so much good. Happens all too often unfortunately.

    Arjun's come as far as it can. They've got the prototypes, they can keep trialing and learning from those.
    But as for actual acquisition and serial production, their money would be far better spent with more T-90s.

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:49 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Arjun is a complete pile of lemons in every way.

    But the main thing is what India's learned from it all; India should scrap the program (actually it should have been scrapped looooong ago), accept the loss and take home the lessons and indigenous technologies developed, and advance with their next-gen tank program.

    dberwal has outlined all the individual good features and quality parts.
    Which may all be true, but it means nothing if the sum of those parts is a banger. One of engineering's many sins, making something bad out of so much good. Happens all too often unfortunately.

    Arjun's come as far as it can. They've got the prototypes, they can keep trialing and learning from those.
    But as for actual acquisition and serial production, their money would be far better spent with more T-90s.

    Maybe or maybe not. I would say a T-90 indian variant of their own upgrades would be ideal. Iran has been learning and produced at least working models of their Zalfagar tank. I imagine India would easily do the same. They could opt for a T-90 variant of their own. Their own turret, their own armor package and optics/FCS system. I would really like to see this.

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  medo on Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:27 pm

    How this is possible. Arjun is practically Leopard 2 tank with Israeli FCS, but at the end it is not really impressive tank.

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  dberwal on Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:15 pm

    Arjun FCS is part of Gunner Main Sight Complex

    The GMS is the key sub-system of the Integrated Fire Control System, used in MBT ARJUN Tank to engage ground targets. GMS is an integrated Day cum Night sight,Consisting of Day sight, Thermal Imager & Laser Range finder. The GMS system is coupled to a Fire Control Computer (FCC) and a Gun Control System (GCS) thus enabling the tank and the gunner to engage ground targets, irrespective of it being stationary or moving, by day as well as night with the tank itself either being stationary or on the move.

    (check bel-india website)

    Gunner Primary sight if from OIP Sensor System (Belgium) now manufactured by BEL India
    FCC Fire Control Computer id Developed by DRDO and The Strategic Electronics Division (SED) of Tata Power totally indigenous
    Gun Control System (GCS) is Developed by CVRDE a DRDO lab totally indigenous

    Israel has nothing to do with FCS of Arjun.
    - Only part they have played is during integration of code for Lahat missile.

    Israel contribution is there in Arjun MK-II by providing:
    - CPS (commander panoramic sight) - TOT and co-development with IRDE - a Drdo Lab
    - BMS (Battle Management System)

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:50 pm

    Austin wrote:
    As far as engine goes they can do lic production build from Germans but that will come at a cost with low production build but Germans have their own views on human rights and other issues , atleast a French engine would have been better.
    no it wouldnt either. the engine for Leclerc performs badly in tropical, and dusty conditions; they had the export 'tropicalized' Leclercs fitted with the German MTU diesel engine instead. the Mistral saga also casts doubts on the reliability of France as a supplier.
    Austin wrote:
    T-90 FCS being not as good as Arjun is granted because the T-90 FCS are 90's ones when IA actually bought the T-90 and lic built it and since then never upgraded any thing on the tank.

    For that matter the T-90 Bhim we build till date is mostly a early 90's product barring the Thales TI system.  Even the Gun is early model 2A46M type.

    Most Russian T-90A compared to bhim have more modern FCS and Gun 2A46M4 types.

    The T-90MS has the most modern FCS of T-90 series with very high probability of hit 21 shots is what they mentioned of the 22 they fired hit the target compared to older gen having probability of hit of 15 for 22 hits.

    T-90MS under the skin a new tank with old designation , much like Su-35 is to a flanker what Su-27SM would be in its first avtar
    i suppose all the T-90S would receive upgrades to elevate them to T-90MS standards if they havent started doing so already.

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Militarov on Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:57 pm

    "The upgraded version of the series of Arjun Mark-II tanks are undergoing trial at the Indian Army core level excercise at Pokhran field firing range. The tank, Arjun Mark-II, is being tested for different parameters here. The first test will examine its missile firing ability, while the second one will look into tank's automotive aspects, that is, its running, especially with added load. A defence source said successful testing will pave way for the production of upgraded Arjun. In all, 124 tanks of the first series have been produced so far. Indian Army has two armoured regiments, both deployed in western desert sector, which comprise of Arjun-I tanks.

    The tank is produced by the DRDOs, combat vehicles research and development establishment near Chennai. A major modification involves equipping the new version of the tank with missile firing capability. The DRDO aims at firing missiles accurately up to a range of 2,000 km. The missiles, fired through the tank's main gun, are primarily meant for targeting armoured vehicles and fortifications over extended ranges. Sources said, the automotive trials will test the new suspension of the tank designed to handle weight up to 70 tonne. The engine will be from the same German parentage. This testing trial has been taking place as part of army exercise since the last one month.

    It is said, the upgraded version has 89 improved aspects over its predecessor. These include long-range missile firing capabilities, panoramic sights with night vision, enhanced weapon penetration, digital control, better hunter-killer capability, improved auxiliary power unit (APU), better communication equipment and navigation aid. The tank will have frontal explosive reactive armour (ERA) to protect against incoming missiles. Source revealed that the ongoing trails of Arjun Mark-II in Pokhran field firing range will mainly focus on 19 parametres after army's recommendation. A successful trial at Pokharan firing range would give a green signal for building 124 Arjun Mark-II tanks at the Heavy Vehicles Factory in Avadi. These will supplement the 124 Arjun Mark-I tanks already in service.



    Source said "The major upgrades would be missile-firing capability against long-range targets, panoramic sight with night vision to engage targets effectively at night, containerisation of the ammunition, enhanced main weapon penetration; additional ammunition types, explosive reactive armour, an advanced air-defence gun to engage helicopters; a mine plough, an advanced land navigation system and a warning system which can fire smoke grenades to confuse laser guidance. Other upgrades are an enhanced Auxiliary power unit providing 8.5 KW (from 4.5 KW) and an improved gun barrel, changes in the commander's panoramic sight with eye safe LRF, night vision capability including for driver, digital control harness, new final drive, track and sprocket." Defence spokesperson Lt Col Manish Ojha said upgradation of weapons and equipment through trial is a constant and ongoing process, but at present, no information about Arjun Mark-II tank trial has been provided by the army."


    Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/jaipur/Upgraded-Arjun-Mark-II-tanks-undergoing-trial-at-Pokhran/articleshow/49927519.cms

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Pinto on Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:30 pm

    Arjun wont be inducted in big numbers, India might order more T90 MS and in couple of years might look for Armata tanks

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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Militarov on Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:24 pm

    Pinto wrote:Arjun wont be inducted in big numbers, India might order more T90 MS and in couple of years might look for Armata tanks

    Contract for 354 T90MS is already signed, they said its last order of T90 however that might change due to again growing issues with Arjun MK2.

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