Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

I thought the ka-52 does recon because of its radar.

In the case of the Mi-28N, the division into a gunner and an armament operator is rigid (unlike the Ka-52), duplication of their work became possible only in the recently created combat training version of the Mi-28UB. The Mi-28N also does not have an airborne radar (appeared only in the export version of the Mi-28NE and the upgraded Mi-28NM).

Flying at low altitude hugging the terrain a radar is not actually as much use as many might think... good for terrain avoidance, but so many things like ground shape means terrain and trees and other things get in the way of potential targets so you might not detect targets at useful ranges.

Targets hiding behind terrain don't appear on the radar display either...

In the current model Hind with the nose mounted chin turret the division of labour is similar, the gunner operates the guided missiles and the chin mounted gun turret while the pilot controls the rocket pods and any gun pods being carried obviously because to aim and fire them you have to point the whole aircraft.

As the author points out, the advantage of the Mi-28N is a much more advanced optoelectronic data processing system that allows you to automatically detect and track targets until they are eliminated.

This processing is also used on other Russian platforms to identify targets and track them, having a combination of hardware and software able to scan through a live video image looking for certain characteristics for specific targets is going to be widely deployed on their new armoured vehicles too, so the video game feature of cycling through all the visible targets in a radar map display to give a zoomed image of the target like in the aircraft sims becomes a reality.

Instead of scanning side to side looking for targets, radars or wide field thermals detect the location of vehicles or moving targets which the optics can then be zoomed in on for ID purposes. Sophisticated processing of MMW radars signals can also give information on the targets too.

To this should be added the onboard communication system KSS-28N-1, which makes it possible to exchange data, including images, in real time with other helicopters and ground control points.

Communications will improve to the point that Armata tank commanders will have access to data including real time images of nearby enemy platforms sourced from helicopters and aircraft (Su-25) and also drones. Obviously some information passed to an HQ will immediately be forwarded to nearby Grad units and even 2S1 or 2S3 vehicles which can immediately engage targets as they are discovered by air platforms.

In such a case the 2S1 and 2S3 don't need long range ammo, they just need to be in the loop and in a position to fire straight away with a shell that can be guided to impact by the platform that spotted the target.

From an Mi-28NMs perspective, spotting a target and sending the target location to a nearby friendly artillery vehicle for an immediate laser guided round to be fired at the target in communication with the Mi-28NM that spotted the target so as the round arrives they can paint the target with a laser spot for a direct hit.

Well that is the fastest kill chain you can have.

Ka-52 takes a little more weapons and can hit objects from a greater distance, including air targets. The Mi-28N, on the contrary, is better armored and has more opportunities to exchange information received onboard. Therefore, in many frames from Ukraine, you can see helicopters of both types working together.

They are different enough to make having both worth it.

According to the observations of the observer, the Mi-28N usually flies as a leader, performing the function of reconnaissance and sometimes conducting reconnaissance in force. This is facilitated by good armor and efficient operation of the gun in the horizontal plane. The Ka-52 usually flies a little behind, but at a distance that allows you to cover or provide fire support to the leading vehicle.

The same way two Su-25s will operate together... with the front one hitting targets, the one sitting back watches for ground fire and warns the front aircraft of any missile launches where a manouver would help better evade the threat...

The gun placement of the Ka-52 is not a problem as depicted in that comment... the 2A42 cannon is a very very powerful cannon, its dimensions are 30 x 165, or 3cm calibre and 16.5 cm long shell case containing an enormous powder charge for high velocity rounds.

In comparison the 30mm gun of the Apache is more of a grenade launcher than a 30mm cannon, at 30 x 113mm with a shell case that is not much bigger than 30mm calibre so it becomes like a grenade launcher firing a low velocity heavy bomb, much like the 23 x 115mm Russian round currently on Hinds and used in gun pods.

I thought the ka-52 does recon because of its radar.

Technically it does... it is looking for targets with superior sensors and longer ranged missiles... the Orcs send vulnerable weak conscripts forward and watch for the firing positions of the Russians which they then try to deal with, the Russians appear to send hardened protected helicopters forward to hit targets and reveal the positions of other enemies trying to shoot them down... the equivalent of sending in a tank and shooting at everything that responds to it.

The difference is that the Havocs are much safer playing this game than those Ukrainian conscripts who will generally get massacred by artillery and cannon fire from tanks and BMPS and BTRs.

Most helicopters have thin canopies... the front canopy will often stop light cannon rounds, but the curved side canopies often wont stop pistol ammo.

I remember in the 1990s US fanboys saying the tiny windows on the Havoc were a problem, which was funny when Apaches got shot down from the side through their side windows which are made of plexiglass to reduce weight... they were penetrated by AK fire from 300m or more.

In fact I will post the video on the Mi-28 thread...

Here: https://www.russiadefence.net/t517p475-mi-28n-havoc-news#409421

It is also interesting to note the new optics balls equipping the new Mi-28NM appear to be the same as those fitted to the Ka-52M which means the Ka-52 with superior optics and Mi-28 with superior comms, would it be safe to guess both now will get the best optics and the best communications systems?

Funnily enough it was the Ka-52 that was billed as a reconnaissance-strike helicopter initially

If in practice the Mi-28N is better suited to the role, then it should be the model equipped with the most optronics and comms means.

While the Ka-52 can fulfill more the role of a 'tactical bomber' in helicopter terms; i.e. as a strike platform with a powerful radar and larger payload, including long-range stand-off munitions such as the Izd. 305, and be capable of receiving data directly from Mi-28Ns ahead. Hopefully the Ka-52 will be integrated with launchable UAVs sooner or later, which can scout out ahead in place of the Mi-28N in some situations.

I thought the ka-52 does recon because of its radar.

It was always meant to, and indeed its rapid turning ability was probably regarded as an advantage as well for recon missions

However if the Ka-52 hangs 1-2 kilometers back, then that's not that much difference for the radar anyway, so it can still do radar reconnaissance just fine. Radar is expensive and you don't want to equip it on every helicopter, or the ones most likely to shot down.

As mentioned in the article the division of labour is different in the Hokum... and the Hinds with the twin barrel fixed 30mm cannon.

In the Mi-28 the gunner operates the gun which is in a chin mount and does not need the aircraft to steer where you want to shoot... the gunner also controls the guided missiles.

The pilot controls the aircraft obviously but also aims the gun pods or rocket pods or bombs which are directed by manouvering the entire helicopter.

In operational terms that means the pilot moves the aircraft around the place and can launch a volley of rockets at targets, but most of the time he is focused on flying the aircraft around the place and getting from way point to way point safely, while the gunner is looking for targets and threats and both are listening to the aircraft they are operating with warning them about ground fire and threats or new targets.

The gunner engages targets with the gun or the missiles at extended ranges like the tank gunner focuses on killing targets while the commander looks for threats and new targets... except the gunner on the helicopter uses the aircrafts sensors to find new targets for himself... his target finding sensors are better than the pilots.

The point is that the Kamov uses a nearly fixed cannon too which is aimed by the pilot so the gunner only operates the missiles.

That shift in duties means the pilot is more likely to use the gun for close in threats and targets while the gunner uses the missiles at extended ranges, but it gives the pilot more work and leaves the gunner with less work to do.

The extended range of sensors and missiles of the Kamov make it probably better at the recon or target finding mission because it would probably find more targets out to greater distance, even if it didn't have enough ordinance to kill them all, putting them on a combat map is useful for other platforms to deal with.

The Hokum is also probably better to operate with a drone and as Fp points out... in many ways they are using the Mi-28 as a heavy armoured drone anyway.

It is interesting that the Hokum was always billed as the more high tech model with better sensors and longer ranged missiles, but it seems the Mil is better able to coordinate its work with ground forces and HQs and other aircraft...

The ideal situation would be for a Ratnik III equipped commander on the ground to be able to click between link feeds of Hokums and Havocs and Su-25s and Su-57s and Su-70s and various drones showing him radar and IIR images in real time of the targets in front of him allowing him to zoom in and select targets for the various platforms to engage, or for artillery to deal with in real time.

The ka-52 shot down in gostomel was gifted to the ukrainians and was lifted up and being sent to the americans for analysis. Now the americans know every single thing about the ka-52, its radar, the vikhr ATGMs, and the vitebsk system. This will provide NATO with valuable information on how to counter everything about the ka-52.

https://t.me/warhistoryalconafter/76848

There is nothing to learn about any of the systems you mentionned. Go on wikipedia and you will know everything about them.

Only comms are at risk but they probably destroyed them when they landed.

But it was dumb to let it untouched and they had plenty of time to destroy it.

However that's weired because I rememver they bombed that ka-52 in Gostomel at one point after its pictures were on twitter for some time. Just vefire they retreated from Kiev area. This could be a fake or a destroyed ka-52 they maked up for the picture.

Na they definately left one Ka-52 intact

And how hard could it have been, to evacuate it, considering they were there for over a month?

Compromised weapons normally lead to investment into massive and extensive upgrades like the the MiG-25PD.

There is nothing to learn about any of the systems you mentionned. Go on wikipedia and you will know everything about them.


That is some level 14 Youtube comment section statement.

If that was the case, why was Turkey seeking a tender candidate soley with a contract in mind to produce a licensed version with possibility to implement their own modifications and production line in Turkey? We are talking here about a A-129 Mangusta helicopter. They would buy even AH-64 or Mi-28 or Ka-52 if they would have given a license for domestic production and modification.

There is a good reason why countries poor millions and billions into studying and developing systems. Certainly nothing super informative to find on Wikipedia.

Wikipedia is garbage when it comes to anything outside STEM (excluding biology today).

Obsoleted already with the Ka-52M. Whatever.

You are talking about industrial transfert of technology and stealing know-how.

Russians have a bad experience with su-27/j-11 story. That's true.

But here, US have their own designs. They aren't interested by ka-52 design. If they get it they won't learn anything that can help counter it. You can learn about the helicopter online pretty easily. Rockets are rockets. Vikhr are atgms. The optics are optics like any other optics and the radar works as any other radar. Maybe they could learn about its freuencies but even then it's not used for air to air but to detect tanks that have no Radar warning receivers or radar jammers. So who cares if they get their hands on it.

It's like US army annalyzing an ak-12. They will know it better but that won't help them at all. Bullets coming from it will still kill US soldier if they are touched.

Fighters on the other side have more sensitive stuff like comms, radar, EW, missiles system, datalink... that uou don't wabt the enemy to have and annalyze.

Regardless of everything it was good and prudent thing to do. Destroy your equipment, so it doesn't go to your enemies hand. Damn thing was sitting at the same place for more than a month. One Krasnopol was enough for the job.

But here, US have their own designs. They aren't interested by ka-52 design.

You really have some simplistic believe what such complex systems are or how they work let alone the money and work went to in such projects to make them work for military purpose.

The US lacks the co-axial rotor technology completely. Especially for military purpose. With the limitations by rotoray winged aircrafts it is important to increase the capability and diminish the negative effects of retreating blade.

A complex system like a helicopter is not an assault rifle otherwise every nation could produce them.

US have decided to go with the tilt rotor helicopters. They won't change all their industry because they get their hands on a russian ka-52.

And Sikorsky has 4 or 5 projects with coaxial rotors. US never intended to use that technology and they have studied it. It's not a ka-52 that will change their mind.

Coaxial tech is just the signature of kamov. If it was so good over traditional helicopters, Mil would be using it too. But even kamov don't use that in their last ka-60/62.

There is nothing to learn about any of the systems you mentionned. Go on wikipedia and you will know everything about them.

Only comms are at risk but they probably destroyed them when they landed.

But it was dumb to let it untouched and they had plenty of time to destroy it.

However that's weired because I rememver they bombed that ka-52 in Gostomel at one point after its pictures were on twitter for some time. Just vefire they retreated from Kiev area. This could be a fake or a destroyed ka-52 they maked up for the picture.

This is such a stupid take, based on hopeful ignorance.

Do you think russia would learn a lot of important useful classified info if it captured a tigre HAP with intact PARS 3 ATGMs?

Now NATO knows exactly how well the arbalet radar and vitebsk jammer works. Now NATO will be able to mass produce DIRCMs for its helicopters, but also design missiles that reduce DIRCM effectiveness.

Why did the USSR shoot adoplh tolkachev instead of patting him on the back if giving classified radar tech to the enemy is a nothingburger?

Regarding vikhrs, now NATO knows exactly what kind of alloys and geometry its shaped charge has. Contrary to popular belief, chaped charges differ in perfomance massively against slightly different composite arrays and alloys, and depending on the alloy of the shaped charge itself. The rpg-29 penetrated the lower armor of the challenger because western composite armor was vulnerable to russian chromium allow shaped charges. Now NATO will build tanks with composite armor arrays that perform much better against the vikhr, and will know exactly how to jam its laser beam.

West has already DICRM. Thry didn't wait for Russian tech.

The radar is used for air to ground mapping so no one cares about how it works. Tanks and ground vehicles don't have RWR or jammers to counter it.

Vikhr pentrates 900mm from the top. No vehicles can be protected against it unless you have APS. Only tanks on the frontal area have a chance but that's not how it works with vikhr since it comes from the top and doesn't hit at 0°. You overestimate tank protection. Against atgm only a small portion of the tank is protected.

It's laser beam can't be jammed because like any russian laser atgm, the guidance kit on the missiles faces the launcher and not the tank.

The jammer is at risk I agree but that's not the jammer of a fighter but a helicopter. So not a big matter. They can always update the software and install a better variant on future ka-52.

Also it crashed. Pilots probably destroyed sensitive stuff when they got rescued.

Do you think russia would learn a lot of important useful classified info if it captured a tigre HAP with intact PARS 3 ATGMs?

Nothing useful. It is a IR guided so passive missile. You can't detect it from a tank even if you know how it works.

You got some chance to see it on your thermals and launch flares but you don't need to analyze the missile for that.

Like I said it's like knowing how an ak-47 is made and thinking it can't kill you anymore. That's dumb. Know it or not it will keep being as dangerous as it was designed.

Why did the USSR shoot adoplh tolkachev instead of patting him on the back if giving classified radar tech to the enemy is a nothingburger

Fighter radars when known can be jammed. Very bad for air detection and air to air fight. If it compromised, it won't be useful at all.

Ka-52 radar detects tanks and vehicles as well as terrain for terrain mapping. Ground vehicles don't have jammers or rwr so you don't really care if it compromised. At worse, you can just update the software as a safety. You can keep using it.

Regardless of everything it was good and prudent thing to do. Destroy your equipment, so it doesn't go to your enemies hand. Damn thing was sitting at the same place for more than a month. One Krasnopol was enough for the job.

Maybe they are watching to see where they take the aircraft and bomb that building instead...

US have decided to go with the tilt rotor helicopters. They won't change all their industry because they get their hands on a russian ka-52.

And Sikorsky has 4 or 5 projects with coaxial rotors.

Coaxial rotors are hard, but have clear benefits especially in regard to high speed helicopters... no problems with retreating blade stalls.

US never intended to use that technology and they have studied it. It's not a ka-52 that will change their mind.

The engines are rather more powerful than US equivalents and they would be very interested in the gearbox the helicopter uses.

Coaxial tech is just the signature of kamov. If it was so good over traditional helicopters, Mil would be using it too.

Kamov traditionally made naval helicopters... on a deck of a ship a helicopter holds position by pointing its nose into the wind and nodding its nose to counter the wind to remain in position... a turning ship or shifting wind direction means turning the nose... imagine what that does to the tail rotor on a helicopter... very very dangerous...

Coaxials have smaller main rotor sizes and no dangerous tail rotors... the west has tried notar and finesrian (spelling) tail rotors to deal with the problem but not really with great success.

The Ka-60/62 was a conventional layout helo because the requirements did not allow for the tall coaxial rotor design to be used.

The new replacement for the Helix, the Minoga will be coaxial and the new Kamov and Mil high speed helicopters will likely be coaxial too because of retreating blade stall issues.

Do you think russia would learn a lot of important useful classified info if it captured a tigre HAP with intact PARS 3 ATGMs?

Learn how fragile and over priced they are? Yes, but I rather doubt they would bother trying to copy them... they already have better systems in production.

IR signatures would be recorded and radar signatures would be captured for EO system and radar system identification purposes...

Now NATO will be able to mass produce DIRCMs for its helicopters, but also design missiles that reduce DIRCM effectiveness.

HATO already has DIRCMS and the companies that make them will be too arrogant to take any ideas from a Russian system... they will say it is inferior to theirs and that nothing can be learned...

Why did the USSR shoot adoplh tolkachev instead of patting him on the back if giving classified radar tech to the enemy is a nothingburger?

Because the cost of replacing the compromised technology was money they otherwise didn't want to spend, and probably would not have spent... so effectively the Russian military get a weapon upgrade... a good thing for them.

The MiG-25PD which resulted in the compromise of the MiG-25P was a useful upgrade.... the R-40TD missiles are still seen on MiG-31s occasionally and would have been ideal for shooting down SR-71s.

Regarding vikhrs, now NATO knows exactly what kind of alloys and geometry its shaped charge has. Contrary to popular belief, chaped charges differ in perfomance massively against slightly different composite arrays and alloys, and depending on the alloy of the shaped charge itself. The rpg-29 penetrated the lower armor of the challenger because western composite armor was vulnerable to russian chromium allow shaped charges. Now NATO will build tanks with composite armor arrays that perform much better against the vikhr, and will know exactly how to jam its laser beam.

Well the joke is on them then isn't it because the Vikhrs the Russians were using would have been optimised to kill the tanks the Ukrainian tanks had surely, so if the west changes its armour arrays then the warheads the Russians plan to use against HATO tanks should continue to work just fine...

The jammer is at risk I agree but that's not the jammer of a fighter but a helicopter. So not a big matter. They can always update the software and install a better variant on future ka-52.

They are in the process of introducing the new Ka-52M very shortly so the replacement is already close anyway...

And Vikhr is soon to be replaced by Hermes officially though I suspect Vikhr will continue in production... we have seen an Mi-28 with Vikhrs fitted too.

Fighter radars when known can be jammed. Very bad for air detection and air to air fight. If it compromised, it won't be useful at all.

Agree, the frequencies Radar and IR systems operate in are well known and each frequency has advantages and disadvantages in different roles against different targets... MMW radar is good for high definition but lacks range and is not good in heavy moisture.... which is why it is used for weather radars to detect rain clouds and fronts, while CMW radar has much longer range... the MMW radar on the Ka-52 might spot tanks to 15km or so but it could detect bridges and large buildings and ships to about 30km, but it is not going to see very much very much further away than that, which is why the Ka-52K naval model has a CM wave AESA radar so aircraft and ships can be detected at hundreds of kms.

@GarryB
Maybe they are watching to see where they take the aircraft and bomb that building instead...

Or maybe they planted the bomb in the chopper to blow it up when it arrives in US.

Capturing and reverse-engineering a weapon system does not magically make it ineffective.

Sure, NATO could decipher the weaknesses of the captured Ka-52's electronic warfare complex, but its missile production is a cottage industry producing a handful of products every year so its a moot point anyway.

This is your brain on reddit.

Capturing and reverse-engineering a weapon system does not magically make it ineffective.

Sure, NATO could decipher the weaknesses of the captured Ka-52's electronic warfare complex, but its missile production is a cottage industry producing a handful of products every year so its a moot point anyway.

This is your brain on reddi

kontakt 5 ERA was rendered useless after NATO got some modules and developed the M892A2 and DM-63 APFSDS. Israel modifioed the trophy APS to defend almost entirely against multiple  kornets fired at the same time after they captured kornets. Meanwhile the soviets modified their T-72 to T-72A standard to be better protected against 105mm NATO APFSDS because they captured the hetz APFSDS. Without it, the soviets had no idea T-72s could be  easily penned by 105mm APFSDS from the 70s. The F-35 wouyldnt have been possible without lockheed stealing detailed design infop of the Yak-141 powerplant.

Just a couple of examples.

Dumb exemples.

Even first Apfsds can easily go through m1a1 from the side.

ERA keeps evolving. Kontakt 5 is still very good against single shaped charges. Just like anti tank weapons evolve. Against apfsds it is far less protecting than heat. If you want to stop apfsds you need more armor.

Israeli didn't need the kornet to know how their trophy works. Korbet is just a target moving at 300m/s. Vikhr is moving at 600m/s. If trophy can shoot down target moving at 600m/s then it can shoot all russian atgm. And they don't need kornet to know how many missiles it can shot down at once. They tested it with their own missiles. .

Kornet is used by nato forces. Doesn't mean it is useless.

Or maybe they planted the bomb in the chopper to blow it up when it arrives in US

They could probably fit a small nuke in the fuel tanks...

GLONASS system to ensure it is either in Brussels when it explodes or in the continental US...

kontakt 5 ERA was rendered useless after NATO got some modules and developed the M892A2 and DM-63 APFSDS.

Kontakt 5 is effective against every western APFSDS except for two... sounds like a good system... plus it would act as spaced armour for all the HESH rounds the British still use.

And it is still effective against HEAT rounds which it was also designed to defeat... TOW and Javelin would not penetrate it from the front...

Israel modifioed the trophy APS to defend almost entirely against multiple kornets fired at the same time after they captured kornets.

Did it work? Or are they just making claims? Kornet seems to be a very effective system, have not read of any situations where Trophy made their tanks 100% safe.

The F-35 wouyldnt have been possible without lockheed stealing detailed design infop of the Yak-141 powerplant.

The information to make the F-35 was bought, it was not stolen... I rather suspect the Russians approved that sale because look at what a dog it has turned the F-35 programme in to. They bought the thrust vectoring nozzle technology that would work with an 18-20 ton thrust engine with full AB... not any nozzle can divert such thrust 95 degrees...

If you want to stop apfsds you need more armor.

Later models of ERA were designed for APFSDS rounds... contakt 5 was mainly to stop HEAT rounds, especially from ATGMs, it was the first second generation ERA that effected APFSDS but was never considered to be the definitive solution.

Israeli didn't need the kornet to know how their trophy works. Korbet is just a target moving at 300m/s. Vikhr is moving at 600m/s. If trophy can shoot down target moving at 600m/s then it can shoot all russian atgm. And they don't need kornet to know how many missiles it can shot down at once. They tested it with their own missiles.

The problem for the tank with Kornet is that it is laser beam riding with no wire so you point your laser at the target and launch a missile and then straight away launch another missile so you have two missiles flying down the same laser beam flying towards the same target... if they are half a second apart the APS system on that tank has half a second to reset after defeating the first missile to try to deal with the second missile... they didn't need Kornet for that... they could have used fixed mounted RPG launchers to have two threats arriving at nearly the same time to test the system and adapt its design so it can cope with the two threats that are too far apart to be dealt with as one threat.

Kornet is used by nato forces. Doesn't mean it is useless.

Kornet is amazing... they were selling them for $5K per missile and that is the export price...

Beware of fake news, fake photos and propaganda.

Here is what happened to that famous Ka-52:

Posted by Fighter-Bomber:

https://t.me/fighter_bomber/10168

Well they managed to get ahold of a Ka-52 in pretty good condition from somewhere, after Russia withdrew from the Kiev region and others