Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+8
Odin of Ossetia
GarryB
higurashihougi
Big_Gazza
kvs
ucmvulcan
Hole
Walther von Oldenburg
12 posters

    Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Walther von Oldenburg
    Walther von Oldenburg


    Posts : 1690
    Points : 1809
    Join date : 2015-01-23
    Age : 33
    Location : Oldenburg

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Sat May 25, 2024 9:12 am

    Not sure if this deserves a separate thread.

    What do you think should happen to the Ukrainian language after the SMO is successfully concluded?

    Should it be suppressed or allowed to exist? Or perhaps even supported (since supporting minority languages is a huge trend worldwide)?

    Any thoughts?
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 10953
    Points : 10933
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  Hole Sat May 25, 2024 11:14 am

    It´s not a language, it´s a dialect.

    xeno, Big_Gazza, kvs, lyle6 and ucmvulcan like this post

    ucmvulcan
    ucmvulcan


    Posts : 1201
    Points : 1201
    Join date : 2022-02-26

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  ucmvulcan Sat May 25, 2024 9:33 pm

    Y'all Ukrainian be like ebonics fo shizzle ma nizzle.  Seriously, its a bastardized dialect of Russian made extreme to accenuate differences .  I know of a "Russian specialist" historian who sort of told the truth while perpetuating the lie.  She said Ukrainian was "discovered as a unique [sic] language in the 19th century."  Basically it is its own language in the same way that Ebonics is its own language compared to English.  Actually, both were invented for the same reason.  In fact, Ebonics, Black Islam, and "Afrocentrism" has many parallels to Ukrainian and Ukranian Nationalism.* I think Ukrainian, like Ebonics, is an almost stereotypical dialect, and in a couple generations will join the Ebonics Bible and the Oakland, County Ebonics curriculum in the trash can of history. It will be seen as an amusing footnote.

    *By Afrocentricism I do not mean the very important and very fascinating understanding of the history of Africa and the African diaspora through the eyes of Africans and those of the African Diaspora.  I mean the bullshit that every single major historical figure anywhere in the world was black, that Blacks are superior to all others, and all the other crap that sounds exactly like the nonsense uttered by the Fascists in Ukraine.

    GarryB, xeno, Big_Gazza, kvs, Rodion_Romanovic and lyle6 like this post

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15332
    Points : 15469
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  kvs Sun May 26, 2024 12:31 am

    I think that Ukrainian is more real than Ebonics. It emerged over the span of a few centuries and I would not attribute it to political engineering
    in the last 150 years. The Rus living to the west of Kiev got colonized and assimilated by Poland and this process extended into the Austro-Hungarian
    Empire. Around the turn of the last century was when you had the emergence of Ebonics and Afrocentric style Ukr academia that laid down the
    fake history of Ukria. These scumbag academics have been going strong for the last 100 years primarily in the west. The really managed to shape
    Ukr identity and effectively in the post 1990 period.

    Academics have been key in foisting critical race theory and other degeneracy in the west as we can see with the woke spasm of the last 10 years.
    It took them from the end of the WWII, but they succeeded. They are now pushing pedophilia acceptance and the abyss is bottomless with these
    vermin.

    ucmvulcan likes this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4738
    Points : 4730
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  Big_Gazza Sun May 26, 2024 2:46 am

    Banderites will become extinct, so not sure why the dead will need a language....

    Firebird and lyle6 like this post

    ucmvulcan
    ucmvulcan


    Posts : 1201
    Points : 1201
    Join date : 2022-02-26

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  ucmvulcan Sun May 26, 2024 3:18 am

    kvs wrote:I think that Ukrainian is more real than Ebonics.   It emerged over the span of a few centuries and I would not attribute it to political engineering
    in the last 150 years.   The Rus living to the west of Kiev got colonized and assimilated by Poland and this process extended into the Austro-Hungarian
    Empire.  Around the turn of the last century was when you had the emergence of Ebonics and Afrocentric style Ukr academia that laid down the
    fake history of Ukria.  These scumbag academics have been going strong for the last 100 years primarily in the west.  The really managed to shape
    Ukr identity and effectively in the post 1990 period.  

    Academics have been key in foisting critical race theory and other degeneracy in the west as we can see with the woke spasm of the last 10 years.
    It took them from the end of the WWII, but they succeeded.  They are now pushing pedophilia acceptance and the abyss is bottomless with these
    vermin.


    I agree with most of this, but when I read -in the Western press- that the friggen dictator of Ukraine didn't even start learning Ukrainian until 2019 I see it as a very artificial language like Esperanto or Ebonics. Now sure, Ukrainian may be 150 years old, but again, how much of this is a dialect of Russian that is naturally occurring and how much of the language is an artificial construct by intellectual elitists created just to sound different. After all, the first note of Ukrainian as a distinguishable thing emerged in the aftermath of the Revolutions of 1848 which sparked nationalist movements across Europe. I could see academics coming up with a new pronunciation of a word here, a switching out of a letter there (this is a Latin alphabet keyboard I am using on my laptop so "backwards N" becomes i) to say see our language is different so we are independent people. Then you take beautiful old legends that the apostles of the early Church sought refuge from Roman persecution in the caves near Kiev and you bastardize them much the way British Israelists base a lot of their British nationalism on Jesus' alleged sojurn in Glastonbury in His youth. In much the same way Foxes' Book of Martyr's gave English Protestants a cloud of Martyrs for an Anglocentric cult, Nicholas II and Alexander III's Official Russification policies and Stalin's crackdown of Kulaks and the Holodomor Hoax gave Ukrainian nationalists their martyrs for their Ukronazicentric cult. Having one's own language (the reason protties were obsessed with having the bible and church services in the local language) and one's own set of national heroes and martyrs, is the stuff that tugs on the heart strings and emotion that fuels nationalism.

    GarryB likes this post

    Walther von Oldenburg
    Walther von Oldenburg


    Posts : 1690
    Points : 1809
    Join date : 2015-01-23
    Age : 33
    Location : Oldenburg

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Sun May 26, 2024 7:17 am

    Ukrainian is recognized as a separate language by academic linguists. It's also recognized as such in Russia since it's one of official languages in Crimea.

    Ukrainian and Russian have only 65% lexical similarity. For comparison Swedish and Norwegian have over 80% lexical similarity and are still considered to be separate languages.

    I have seen ads in Ukrainian in Mariupol so I guess Russia is not actively supressing the usage of Ukrainian.
    higurashihougi
    higurashihougi


    Posts : 3170
    Points : 3257
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  higurashihougi Sun May 26, 2024 7:36 am

    People, please be reminded that the current Maidan fascist regime has nothing to do with preserving Ukrainian identity.

    It is Ukrainian human rights to have their identity preserved and respected. It is just that the fascist Maidan regime exploit ethnic sentiment as an excuse to enslave Ukrainian people for the US masters.

    It is the scheme of Western media to equalized Ukrainian culture and languages with Banderites, although in fact there are no relationship between them. Banderites are criminals and have nothing to do with Ukrainian people. By demonizing Ukrainian culture we are falling into the trap of Western propaganda. And we are also demonizing ourselves, because we act no different from the fascists.

    Walther von Oldenburg and ucmvulcan like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39450
    Points : 39948
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  GarryB Sun May 26, 2024 8:46 am

    The Russians don't ban languages... because nazi is not a language.

    If anyone wants to learn it I am sure they wont be stopped, but even most Ukrainians seem to prefer Russian, and after shelling and bombing Ukrainians in Eastern Ukraine it seems the majority of the voting public don't want to be Ukrainian any more...

    Here in New Zealand there is a huge drive for all New Zealanders to learn Maori, but I have two problems with that... first of all they only teach north island maori... yet they claim they are trying to preserve the culture. I speak English but that does not help be with understanding English people... or Australians or Americans or quite a few other English speaking groups. My second problem is that Maori represent about 15% of New Zealands population and many don't speak Maori either, so the energy and effort to learn a language spoken by 15% of a country with a 5 million population sounds like a bloody waste of my time.

    If I was going to learn a language I want hundreds of millions of people to understand me not rather less than a million.

    Big_Gazza and kvs like this post

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15332
    Points : 15469
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  kvs Sun May 26, 2024 1:45 pm

    By 150 years I meant the "modern" geopolitical engineering of Ukraine (the Galicia region) by western powers.   Half my family comes from western
    Ukraine and the language (dialect if you will) is real and not some Ebonics construct.    Like I said, it goes back to the period after the Poles moved
    into the territory of western Ukraine after the Tatar-Mongol horde's influence began to wane.   This was in the late 1400s and 1500s.   The Grand Duchy
    of Poland and Lithuania controlled a lot of real estate.   Unlike the Russian Empire they did impose assimilation policies both linguistic and religious.   Poland's
    anti-Russian obsession is pure hypocrisy.   The Russian Empire was very soft on Poland and the only reason that Poland got incorporated into the
    Russian Empire was because it was trying to colonize Russia.   This includes installing a proxy czar in the 1600s.  

    Polish treatment of Ukrainians (actually Russians by origin) was very brutal.   Genuine literature and not stooge academic fakery covers this.  The
    current (waning) love affair between Ukraine and Poland is grotesque.   Banderites exterminated Poles during WWII partly for these historical reasons.  
    Not that I support their genocide.  

    BTW, Zelensky should be classified as a Russian Jew.   He is not Ukrainian and would never had reason to speak it.   The Ukrainian language is distributed
    where it emerged and not in the whole of Soviet Ukraine.   The Bolsheviks tried to impose this language on their engineered republic but it failed.   Ukr
    nazionalists claim that lack of the mova in central and eastern Soviet Ukraine was due to "Russification".   This is a blood libel lie.

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Mv28022201

    LMFS and lancelot like this post

    Odin of Ossetia dislikes this post

    Odin of Ossetia
    Odin of Ossetia


    Posts : 897
    Points : 986
    Join date : 2015-07-03

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  Odin of Ossetia Sun May 26, 2024 8:27 pm



    Those Polish enclaves shown on the map, these do not exist.



    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov


    Posts : 3743
    Points : 3723
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun May 26, 2024 10:03 pm

    This question heavily depends on how the SMO ends

    but a safe assumption will be however much of Ukraine they control, they wont care if you speak it but Will probably require russians in anty governmentish official capacity work

    GarryB and Rodion_Romanovic like this post

    Krepost
    Krepost


    Posts : 723
    Points : 725
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  Krepost Mon May 27, 2024 4:19 am

    A more complete image (Languages in Ukraine and Belarus).

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Ukrain10

    xeno and kvs like this post

    Odin of Ossetia dislikes this post

    avatar
    Firebird


    Posts : 1758
    Points : 1788
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  Firebird Wed May 29, 2024 12:43 pm

    My view now is **** them. **** them sideways with a pitchfork. A rusty one. With AIDS on it.

    The Nazis wanted to be part of America so much, they can **** off to America.
    Pukrainian was always a device to divide the Russian world, and then to ethnically cleanse Russians from their homeland.

    Let's face it Pukrainian is a bastard dialect of Russian mixed with some Polish and German and rural inbred fuckwitisms just to annoy Russian people.

    GarryB likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39450
    Points : 39948
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  GarryB Wed May 29, 2024 2:16 pm

    A perfectly valid viewpoint as well... a lot of people were outright murdered because they wanted to speak Russian.

    Lots of people were persecuted because their religion was based in Moscow... and even after splitting away to become Ukrainian the Kiev government still accused them of being too pro Russian... or in reality not anti Russian enough.

    Lots of trials and investigations need to take place to root out the criminals and enablers, but of course plenty will escape to the west and continue like they did nothing wrong.

    This needs to be done thoroughly and right.

    Firebird and kvs like this post

    Walther von Oldenburg
    Walther von Oldenburg


    Posts : 1690
    Points : 1809
    Join date : 2015-01-23
    Age : 33
    Location : Oldenburg

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Wed May 29, 2024 2:52 pm

    Just in Europe there are two examples of very successful multilingual countries - Switzerland and Belgium.

    I can't see why Russia can't follow their example.

    More diversity is generally a good thing. If people (at least in Western Ukraine) want to speak Ukrainian, let them.
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 2508
    Points : 2675
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed May 29, 2024 5:16 pm

    Possibly they need to split it into 3 different groups of dialects/languages.

    Krasnorussian (Lvov dialect)
    Malorussian (Poltava dialect)
    Surzhik (every other mix between western Ukrainian and Russian which is typically spoken in the Ukrainian countryside, and which is not standard, as the surzhik spoken in central/western Ukraine will be different by the surzhik spoken 30 km away from Kiev, and even more to the one spoken  in the current north-center Ukraine).

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surzhyk

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Surzhy10

    As I wrote in other posts in other threads, the "official" Ukrainian language statistics consider as Ukrainian speaking all surzhik speakers, even in the eastern part when it is mostly russian with some Ukrainian words.

    Anyway:

    The future should be that Russian is the official language everywhere, with other regional languages recognized as additional official language in that specific oblasts:
    Hungarian in Zakarpatia, Krasnorussian (Lvov Ukrainian) in most Nord - west regions, Malorussian (Poltava Ukrainian) in the central regions, Greek near Mariupol, etc.

    The regional official language should be able to be used without problems, as long as every official is also available to speak Russian if requested.

    As far as schools, they should organise some bilingual nursery and primary schools (Russian and regional language).

    And high schools should be mostly in Russian with the regional language as  possible second or third language to be chosen (in alternative to other languages like Polish, Hungarian, Romanian, German, French, Italian, Greek, Turkish, English, etc).

    Of course Math and science classes in school should to be teached only in Russian, and all universities should be russian only (except possibly for some limited specific topics for Malorussian or Krasnorussian culture and language).
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39450
    Points : 39948
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  GarryB Thu May 30, 2024 4:51 am


    I can't see why Russia can't follow their example.

    More diversity is generally a good thing. If people (at least in Western Ukraine) want to speak Ukrainian, let them.

    The situation will resolve itself...

    Those regions that join the Russian Federation will be Russian speaking... if you want to speak Ukrainian you can, there wont be any laws against it, but those regions that choose to be neutral will be obligated under the peace treaty... or should I say the surrender treaty not to oppress people who choose to speak languages other than Ukrainian... and that does not just include speaking Russian but also other languages like Hungarian etc etc.

    If there is demand for Ukrainian schools then they can be funded but Ukrainian schools will not exclude Russian language... and will be monitored for extremist ideology...

    Beware the creatures who will scream human rights abuses if they can't use the language of their choice, but will happily burn down buildings and burn to death people in that building if those people choose to use a language these human rights heroes don't approve of.

    Like in the US... not sure of your gender today?

    That is OK, you are a victim of biology.

    You are Russian... your biology is warped, but it is your geography that is the problem you monster trying to damage our children and society...

    Sponsored content


    Ukrainian language after the SMO Empty Re: Ukrainian language after the SMO

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Jun 25, 2024 6:47 pm