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    Would it be possible for Russia to acquire western ship engines

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    bolshevik345


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    Post  bolshevik345 Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:07 am

    I read that Russia has successfully bought Catherine TIS through Algeria despite EU sanctions without much problem. Would it be possible for Russia to acquire western ship engines the same way?

    From defencepolicyasia:


    Ever since Russia was sanctioned for their involvement in the Crimean war, France was bound by those sanctions to not supply weapons and technology to Russia. Joint developments between French and Russian weapon industries made Russian weapons more competitive in the market, without which Russian arms industry would slowly starve.

    French and Russian cooperation benefited the Russian arms industry that employs nearly three million people, and French industrialists seeking to ramp up against stiffening competition in the global market. Restructuring of several French defence conglomerates to remain competitive took place amidst new and powerful entrants from Israel, China, Russia, Brazil, South Africa, and other Asian powers. France is currently the world’s third largest arms exporter but they constantly have to juggle between political prudence and employment back home.

    To get around the sanctions, Russia went through a number of third party countries via joint ventures to have France supply directly to these third party projects rather than have these sensors assembled inside Russia, as such actions are barred by sanctions. The plan is to have the French install these sensors at the customer’s base when the Russian made vehicles arrive.

    The Algerian-Russian joint venture to assemble T-90s in Algeria is one such example. Thales, according to some reports, has agreed to supply components for these Russian made tanks only if they are assembled in Algeria. OJSC Peleng, a Belorussian company that makes fire control systems and sensors for the Russian military, have been in close cooperation with French companies to provide components for their sensors used in Russian made tanks for export. In all, the sanctions had negligible effect for armoured vehicle sales and were nothing more than a nuisance.
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    hoom


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    Post  hoom Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:55 am

    Thats describing T-90s for Algeria being assembled in Algeria.
    Are you saying that was fake & foreign components wound up in Russia?

    Similar scheme I think exists for Indian Su-30 production & the 11356es to be completed/built in India for India are supposed to be getting Ukrainian engines/gearboxes that were ordered by Russia but have been un-delivered post-coup.

    You might be able to use that kind of scheme for naval engines once maybe twice but not in any sustainable way.

    Better is domestic production &/or analogue replacement like the Chinese license-produced diesels being used on Buyan-M.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:09 am

    Marine engines are a technology Russia would benefit from developing and they have several competent companies that develop engines.... Saturn and Klimov leap to mind immediately that could have been making said engines for decades if there was no other company in the Soviet Union already making them.

    Engines are not trivial things and as problems with Chinese copies of German engines if you don't get them right they don't work very well, but that is just design and materials and experience.

    You need strong durable parts in certain places which makes them more expensive but it is worth it. You could make the entire engine out of such materials but that just makes it more expensive, but wont necessarily make the engine more durable... harder parts can shatter in some temperature conditions more easily than softer parts.

    I am sure the Chinese will get it right, but it makes sense for Russia to make their own engines and master development and production on their own... it will take time but it is worth it because a good family of scalable engines can be used at sea and on land including diesels and gas turbines.

    From what they are saying they should be able to make new maritime engines and gearboxes already... it might take a few years to ramp up production and get the design and materials right so reliability might be an issue, but that is normal, and at least when Russia pays for engines it will get them...

    The Russians were quite a bit behind in thermal imager technology because the Soviets focussed on low light level TV system like the EO system in the Su25TM and Ka-50 Shkval-M and Shkval-K... such technology is also used in autotracking systems in Kornet and Pantsir etc so it was valuable, but they bought thermal sights from all over the place including Sweden and South Africa and France.

    They now can produce their own models which are top quality world class systems... the new thermals for the Armata vehicles and new close in thermals for their helos offering 360 degree coverage for detecting targets on the ground and for landing and taking off show they no longer need foreign assistance there. Of course foreign countries might prefer French thermals because that is what they use.
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    bolshevik345


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    Post  bolshevik345 Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:02 am

    hoom wrote:Thats describing T-90s for Algeria being assembled in Algeria.
    Are you saying that was fake & foreign components wound up in Russia?

    Similar scheme I think exists for Indian Su-30 production & the 11356es to be completed/built in India for India are supposed to be getting Ukrainian engines/gearboxes that were ordered by Russia but have been un-delivered post-coup.

    You might be able to use that kind of scheme for naval engines once maybe twice but not in any sustainable way.

    Better is domestic production &/or analogue replacement like the Chinese license-produced diesels being used on Buyan-M.
    What about letting India buy the frigates and then purchase them back. It would be completely legal. Also, what are the differences between military ship turbines and civilian ones?

    Would it be possible to reverse engineer an MTU turbine? If not, then how was the Rolls Royce Nene, which is a much more complex engine based on physical principles, reverse engineered in the late 40s?
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    bolshevik345


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    Post  bolshevik345 Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:18 am

    GarryB wrote:Marine engines are a technology Russia would benefit from developing and they have several competent companies that develop engines.... Saturn and Klimov leap to mind immediately that could have been making said engines for decades if there was no other company in the Soviet Union already making them.

    Engines are not trivial things and as problems with Chinese copies of German engines if you don't get them right they don't work very well, but that is just design and materials and experience.

    You need strong durable parts in certain places which makes them more expensive but it is worth it. You could make the entire engine out of such materials but that just makes it more expensive, but wont necessarily make the engine more durable... harder parts can shatter in some temperature conditions more easily than softer parts.

    I am sure the Chinese will get it right, but it makes sense for Russia to make their own engines and master development and production on their own... it will take time but it is worth it because a good family of scalable engines can be used at sea and on land including diesels and gas turbines.

    From what they are saying they should be able to make new maritime engines and gearboxes already... it might take a few years to ramp up production and get the design and materials right so reliability might be an issue, but that is normal, and at least when Russia pays for engines it will get them...

    The Russians were quite a bit behind in thermal imager technology because the Soviets focussed on low light level TV system like the EO system in the Su25TM and Ka-50 Shkval-M and Shkval-K... such technology is also used in autotracking systems in Kornet and Pantsir etc so it was valuable, but they bought thermal sights from all over the place including Sweden and South Africa and France.

    They now can produce their own models which are top quality world class systems... the new thermals for the Armata vehicles and new close in thermals for their helos offering 360 degree coverage for detecting targets on the ground and for landing and taking off show they no longer need foreign assistance there. Of course foreign countries might prefer French thermals because that is what they use.
    At this point isn't the problem simply lack of industrial capacity and competent workforce pool, as we have seen with the failure to supply engines from Zvezda on time?

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