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    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #6

    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:37 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    There are ways. I guess I am just sad we will likely not see 3m long penetrators because gato are too dumb to design armour that would require them.
    We won't see them anyway because the longest penetrator designs around are 800mm long.

    A 3000mm penetrator also implies the presence of similarly absurd levels of protection. Neither of which are physically possible to implement on a practical vehicle.

    The closest you can get to that level of protection is the Object 490B and it had a ludicrous 2000mm RHAe against subcaliber projectiles. It was also a retardedly expensive and complicated vehicle to maintain an operate since its uses an articulated chassis with two sets of powertrains.

    runaway wrote:
    Yes the Hunter/killer mode isnt such a big thing after all. The main role today of the Tank is to support the Infantry it seems, as they are easy targets for Arty and drones.
    Though we might see some big armoured fist coming in the near future, i doubt it.
    As good as the Armata probably is, if the main role is to support Infantry, the T90 does the job as good. Still, T-14 will make an official debut in the near future, but it will not be a game changer.
    No, its not. The MBT's main role on the battlefield is to be the most lethal and survivable close combat asset. That's a given against infantry and everything else.

    No, the T-14 would likely not be a gamechanger, but that is mainly due to the Russians being ridiculously good at taking down armor anyways and low level coordination is as tight as an be.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:58 am

    As good as the Armata probably is, if the main role is to support Infantry, the T90 does the job as good. Still, T-14 will make an official debut in the near future, but it will not be a game changer.

    The most significant factor regarding Armata is that it is all new and is the base for an entire family of vehicles.

    It is relatively expensive, but would be very powerful in the role.

    The turrets and electronics and weapons and systems for each Armata vehicle is repeated in the other families... so the MBT will have the T-14 turret and 125mm main gun and sensors and optics etc etc, the BMP will have the turret and missiles and equipment etc etc etc.

    The unification of tracks and wheels and vehicles and means much better standardisation for the fleet and better future growth potential with new modular armours and engine upgrades and new guns and missiles etc etc.

    No, the T-14 would likely not be a gamechanger,

    A T-14 would be no more capable of ripping through the entire HATO armed force than a Leopard II or Challenger or Abrams or Leclerc would be capable of ripping through Russian defences and be in Crimea in time for tea and scones.

    The very idea is stupid.

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    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #6 - Page 13 Empty Russia could deploy T-14 Armata tanks in Ukraine as soon as 2024

    Post  lyle6 Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:16 am


    According to posts on Russian social media on September 11, 2023, Russian military analyst Viktor Murakhovsky made statements regarding the T-14 Armata tanks, indicating that once the electronic systems of the T-14 Armata tanks are finalized, serial production is expected to commence, potentially leading to troop deployment as early as 2024.

    However, it is important to remain cautious, as practical deliveries to the Russian army may not occur until the 2025-2026 timeframe. This 2025-2026 timeline for integration is seen as a plausible one, as suggested by Viktor Murakhovsky. He believes this is the likely timeframe for the serial deliveries of the T-14 Armata tanks to the Russian army, which contrasts with various timelines proposed by different commanders and experts.

    The pace of this integration process may be influenced by the evolving military situation on the Ukrainian front, similar to other projects such as the T-72B3 Sturm unmanned tank, or the 2S43 Malva and the 2S18 Pat-S 152mm self-propelled howitzers.

    The process of introducing the T-14 Armata into the Russian military has been meticulously planned, with Russian sources sharing more details. For example, the Kazan Tank School received simulators for training tank crews in the fall of 2020. On August 5, 2023, the Army Recognition editorial team reported the presence of a T-14 Armata main battle tank near this school. Simultaneously, schools in Omsk and Novosibirsk acquired equipment for training technicians and commanders in the same year.

    A report from a Russian newspaper indicated that the first batch of cadets, destined to operate the T-14, was planned to complete their training in 2021, with graduation expected in 2025-2026. This aligns with the expected timeline for the actual integration of these advanced tanks into the Russian military.

    On August 24, 2023, the Army Recognition editorial team reported that the T-14 Armata tank is entering its finalization phase, where development, design, and production enhancements will prepare the vehicle for operational deployment.

    During this phase, the T-14 Armata will incorporate lessons learned from its involvement in combat operations as part of Russia's battlegroup South's participation in the Ukrainian conflict, as confirmed by Viktor Murakhovsky. Additionally, he revealed that the expected modifications to the T-14 Armata tanks will primarily focus on enhancing their electronic systems. Specific details about these modifications remain undisclosed, but their objective is to improve the tank's performance and capabilities, ensuring its effectiveness in modern warfare scenarios and paving the way for mass production after multiple delays.

    Initially, the Russian Army had plans to acquire 2,300 T-14 tanks between 2015 and 2020. However, these plans faced significant setbacks. By 2018, a combination of production and fiscal issues led to the postponement of the expected delivery date of the T-14 Armata until 2025.

    These challenges likely included budget constraints and logistical difficulties related to scaling up production to meet the initial targets. Furthermore, in July 2018, Russia announced the apparent cancellation of the main production run of the T-14 Armata, raising doubts about its future deployment.

    Despite these setbacks, as of 2021, there were renewed efforts to move forward with production. The Russian state-owned TASS media agency claimed that the Armata was expected to begin serial production in 2022, with a test batch intended for delivery to the 2nd Guards Tamanskaya Motor Rifle Division. However, the tanks were planned to be officially transferred to the army only following the completion of all state tests, which is a time-consuming process involving rigorous testing and evaluation.

    Even after the commencement of serial production in December 2021, Rostec, the Russian state conglomerate, stated that "more than 40" Armata tanks were anticipated to be delivered to Russian troops after 2023, indicating further delays in actual troop deployment.

    The 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine had a significant impact on the planned expenditure and resource allocation. This could have further complicated the production and deployment of the T-14 Armata as resources were diverted to address more urgent needs arising from the conflict.

    Technical challenges also played a role in the delays. The T-14 Armata is a highly advanced tank with innovative features, such as an unmanned turret and advanced electronic systems. Addressing technical issues, such as problems with the tank's engine and thermal-imaging equipment, further postponed its introduction into service.

    Additionally, the tank's export potential and foreign interest introduced complexity to the production timeline. Russia's foreign partners, including China and India, expressed interest in purchasing the T-14 Armata. Exploring export opportunities may have diverted resources and attention from domestic production.

    The T-14 Armata, an advanced next-generation main battle tank developed by Uralvagonzavod, materialized from the Armata Universal Combat Platform initiative, aimed at conceiving a versatile and adaptable combat system tailored to various roles. Unveiled publicly during the 2015 Victory Day Parade in Moscow, the T-14 Armata has since undergone rigorous testing and trials. It is destined to gradually supplant Russia's aging tank models, in consonance with the nation's military modernization strategy.

    The T-14 Armata features an unmanned turret housing the primary armament and autoloader, while the crew of three is situated within an armored capsule at the hull's forefront. This design choice prioritizes crew safety and minimizes the tank's overall battlefield profile. Outfitted with a sophisticated fire control system integrating data from diverse sensors, including high-resolution cameras, thermal imagers, and laser rangefinders, the T-14 Armata aims to enhance target acquisition and precision.

    Its modular design, rooted in the Armata Universal Combat Platform, enables potential customization to fulfill varied roles, ranging from infantry support and reconnaissance to heavy assault. Defensive capabilities encompass composite armor, explosive reactive armor, and an Active Protection System (APS) named Afghanit, proficient in detecting and intercepting incoming projectiles.

    Powered by a 1,500-horsepower diesel engine, the T-14 Armata can attain speeds of around 56 mph (90 km/h), with an advanced suspension system bolstering maneuverability and off-road performance. Moreover, the tank's blueprint facilitates operation within a networked battlefield environment, facilitating communication and data exchange among diverse military units.

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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:07 pm

    Initially, the Russian Army had plans to acquire 2,300 T-14 tanks between 2015 and 2020.
    BS

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:19 pm

    They continuously mix tanks with a whole Armata platform-based vehicles line.

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    Post  Swgman_BK Tue Nov 21, 2023 4:14 pm

    Initially, the Russian Army had plans to acquire 2,300 T-14 tanks between 2015 and 2020. wrote:

    We shouldnt take what Journalists and Analysts say as fact all the time. The MoD of Russia never made such claims about acquiring 2300 tanks..We dont even know how much Russia plans to acquire. Maybe more.. Maybe there is a certain upgrade on the way which is delaying the full scale introduction of the tank. In the end we dont know what the MoD is thinking with regards to the T-14.

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    Post  lyle6 Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:02 pm

    Swgman_BK wrote:
    We shouldnt take what Journalists and Analysts say as fact all the time. The MoD of Russia never made such claims about acquiring 2300 tanks..We dont even know how much Russia plans to acquire. Maybe more.. Maybe there is a certain upgrade on the way which is delaying the full scale introduction of the tank. In the end we dont know what the MoD is thinking with regards to the T-14.

    There was a claim that UVZ can manufacture 2300 vehicles in that timespan, but it was made by the UVZ CEO at the time, not the Russian Army, and certainly not the Ministry of Defense. It was a hail mary play for additional investors to come in and keep the company solvent since at the time UVZ was in dire financial straits and the company was at risk of being brought under new management. Obviously didn't happen and UVZ was put under Rostec, the national weapons manufacturer.

    In hindsight the claim didn't actually make sense. Manufacturing the vehicles is perfectly possible within the timeframe - its just a matter of investing into production. But the real bottleneck is in the human element - the future cadre of personnel who will operate, maintain and manage these vehicles which are a massive conceptual leap to anything that came before. These people will need to be educated and trained and that process simply takes time and is not really scalable i.e. there's only so much schools with the qualified instructors, training facilities etc.

    Though I suppose you can always just make the vehicles and stuff them with 3 week Wittmans like Ukraine is doing for NATO MBTs - the automation is supposed to be that good from what I'm hearing. But then again there's not really any real need, not when the current armor roster is giving an excellent account of themselves in spite of the circumstances. And also its just retarded to do so.

    ALAMO wrote:
    They continuously mix tanks with a whole Armata platform-based vehicles line.
    Please don't. They're going to run GarryB ragged explaining the concept of vehicle families for the nth time. Razz

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    Post  Swgman_BK Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:12 pm

    There was a claim that UVZ can manufacture 2300 vehicles in that timespan, but it was made by the UVZ CEO at the time, not the Russian Army, and certainly not the Ministry of Defense. It was a hail mary play for additional investors to come in and keep the company solvent since at the time UVZ was in dire financial straits and the company was at risk of being brought under new management. Obviously didn't happen and UVZ was put under Rostec, the national weapons manufacturer. wrote:

    Its really hard to believe UVZ would have financial issues. Thats like Sevmash going broke. They are always building some ship or submarine every year. Just like UVZ. Always cranking out 10s of tanks and T72 support vehicles a month (I have never seen the UVZ production line empty as well as the railway system that ferries the tanks to Russian bases). As well as Omsk factory. But I guess it happens to the best of companies sometimes...

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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:43 am


    Its really hard to believe UVZ would have financial issues.

    The Russian MIC is the opposite of the US MIC... the Russian MIC makes perhaps 4% profit on things it sells to the Russian military, and if they find a way to save costs they pass those savings on to the Russian Military... they don't pocket the difference.

    So when the customer changes its plans or some subcontractor lets them down then obviously it is easy to get into problems.

    The real problem is the stupid media who get a report to say a company can do this and just expect it to happen.

    Of course they will always probably say they can do this as long as this or this happens, and these things don't happen and there is enough funding and we can get together the necessary work force to get it done.

    The fact that they are talking about serial production of Armata is the problem because the T-14 is Armata, but so is T-15 and T-16.

    If they are going to make 2,300 T-14s then they are going to have to make the T-16 armoured recovery vehicle to support them as well... is that included in the 2,300 or are they extra?

    If the T-14 is ready for serial production and the T-16 is too then perhaps the T-15 might be close, but there are dozens of other Armata platforms they need to develop and deploy to make a full armata division... and then of course we have the Boomerang and Kurganets vehicles as well.

    Hope that wasn't too painful for you Lyle... but some people still think Armata is a tank and Kurganets is a BMP and Boomerang is a BTR and I guess that would make the Typhoon a BRDM, and the DT-30 two cab tractors would be MTLBs.... and Tigrs jeeps etc etc.

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    Post  Hole Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:40 pm

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #6 - Page 13 10573510
    T-16 with some powerpack.

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    Post  lyle6 Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:22 pm

    I love how the T-16 BREM mogs every other ARV out there:

    For perspective, the closest NATO equivalent is the Buffel 3:
    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #6 - Page 13 Buffel_1_xtemujin
    Compared to the T-16 BREM:
    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #6 - Page 13 Armata_arv
    Now that is real armored recovery.

    Usually people just make a vehicle that resists HMG fire, but this one - it has actual MBT level armor for the citadel. Twisted Evil

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    Post  Hole Fri Nov 24, 2023 4:19 pm

    They could make a version with a cannon and... Suspect
    Call it T-14. Embarassed
    lol1 lol1 lol1

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    Post  lyle6 Mon Dec 04, 2023 9:51 am

    Patent of a loading machine for T-14 MBT:
    https://www.fips.ru/cdfi/fips.dll/ru?ty=29&docid=2808694
    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #6 - Page 13 00000001-m
    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #6 - Page 13 00000002-m

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    Post  GarryB Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:23 am

    Nice... so that is attached to where the empty shell stubs are ejected after firing, so you just load shells and propellent stubs through there presumably with the commander in the commanders position programming in which shell is being loaded to the firing system knows which round is going into each loader position so when an ammo type is selected the autoloader can turn to the nearest position of that ammo and load it automatically.

    That would mean two crew could be loading rounds and propellant stubs on the ground while the third crewman inside the tank enters the ammo type into the loading system.

    Previously the three crew had one on the ground bringing rounds and propellent stubs to the tank and handing up to a second crew member standing on top of the tank who would then reach into the tank with the round and the propellant stub for the person inside to load into the autoloader which operated in reverse and put the round and the propellant stub into the autoloader, the person inside programming which round they were loading at the time so when it came to fire the system knew where each type of round was located so it could be loaded quickly and efficiently.

    This reloading system is more like the loading system for MSTA or Coalition where rounds are loaded into an automatic loading system and stored in an ammo rack.

    I suspect over time an ammo vehicle could be developed to feed ammo and propellant stubs into the vehicle more rapidly than could be hand loaded like they do with the new ammo vehicle for the Coalition.

    The Black Eagle and Burlak type tank autoloaders with turret bustle autoloaders could be fitted by crane fully loaded where the turret bustle autoloader acted like an assault rifle magazine and was loaded already filled with ammo. For the Black Eagle the turret bustle ammo replace the under floor ammo so the 31 rounds in the turret bustle was a full ammo load, but for the Burlak upgrade of the T-72 the underfloor 22 round autoloader was retained so I always though having a 22 round bustle autoloader magazine that could be fitted to the tank where the autoloader transferred the rounds from the bustle auto loader into the underfloor autoloader and when the underfloor autoloader was full and the turret bustle autoloader was empty the bustle autoloader could be removed and replaced with a full 31 round autoloader, so the vehicle would have 22 + 31 = 53 ready to fire rounds very quickly... much faster than either autoloader could be manually loaded by hand.

    Obviously when the tank drives away with 53 ready to fire rounds then the support group will then load ammo into the auto loaders ready for the return of the tanks for reloading.

    The auto rammers and loading systems for the 2S5 and 2S7 are rather interesting too... being necessary because of the sheer weight of the rounds which are too heavy for a person to manhandle on their own.

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    Post  lyle6 Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:53 am

    Not quite. The ejector hatch is its own thing. There is a loading hatch at the rear of the turret that swings down to allow the loading device to dock with the loading trays.
    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #6 - Page 13 I?id=1f2f2a9249cbd37b1cd0b4c8314895a35d6bded1-8219563-images-thumbs&n=13

    An armored resupply vehicle is certainly in the cards, given the widespread damages that interdiction attacks have wreaked on unarmored trucks during supply runs. They already have an armored tanker in development, a vehicle that resupplies ammo is a no-brainer.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:57 am

    Nice. I wonder if they could update the loading system so the round is scanned as it is loaded so you don't need someone programming the type of round being loaded. That would allow you to use all three crewmen on the ground loading ammo into the autoloader and speed up the process.

    The ammo stubs are made of cardboard and are highly flammable so they needed to be handled very carefully, but with three people picking up propellant and rounds of ammo from the crates they arrive in and placing them into an ammo handling system like this means less chance of dropping or damaging the different components of the round and would allow them to be loaded much faster.

    Eventually with a vehicle based loader means the crew could remain in their vehicle and keep up to date with what is happening via drone feeds and communications from the battlefield.
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    Post  Hole Tue Dec 05, 2023 12:14 pm

    a loading machine
    The loading machine for the current tanks is called Iwan. Or Sergej. Or Dmitry. lol1

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    Post  lyle6 Sun Dec 10, 2023 10:41 pm



    A good thread for once, but the Vacuum subcaliber shell is just a third of the Armata's secret for anti-armor overmatch, the other two is its ingenious main gun and the vertical carousel autoloader.

    With the 2A82-1M gun the Russians pulled off a neat trick: Though a combination of higher pressure and larger chamber for the gun with a lighter projectile parasitic mass, they smuggled 90% of the anti-armor performance of the full power 152 mm caliber into the 125 mm caliber.  Twisted Evil Its firepower overmatch on the cheap - they didn't even have to invest in a new production line for a novel caliber. The higher shell count doesn't hurt either.

    The vertical carousel autoloader housed in the hull is also an inspired decision. In a tank with an unmanned turret the crew citadel at the front would boast the most substantial protection consisting of multi-layer composite and Heavy ERA with the APS umbrella cherry on top. The autoloader and the volatile ammo (and the power pack) would be behind the heaviest protection from the front freeing up a significant mass fraction of armor that would've gone to the turret that could be invested in additional protection to the vulnerable top, sides, and bottom of the vehicle. This meant that the T-14 would always be more protected than any other equivalent NATO vehicles, as long as they buy into the retarded bustle ammo stowage.

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    Post  william.boutros Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:55 am

    lyle6 wrote:

    A good thread for once, but the Vacuum subcaliber shell is just a third of the Armata's secret for anti-armor overmatch, the other two is its ingenious main gun and the vertical carousel autoloader.

    With the 2A82-1M gun the Russians pulled off a neat trick: Though a combination of higher pressure and larger chamber for the gun with a lighter projectile parasitic mass, they smuggled 90% of the anti-armor performance of the full power 152 mm caliber into the 125 mm caliber.  Twisted Evil Its firepower overmatch on the cheap - they didn't even have to invest in a new production line for a novel caliber. The higher shell count doesn't hurt either.

    The vertical carousel autoloader housed in the hull is also an inspired decision. In a tank with an unmanned turret the crew citadel at the front would boast the most substantial protection consisting of multi-layer composite and Heavy ERA with the APS umbrella cherry on top. The autoloader and the volatile ammo (and the power pack) would be behind the heaviest protection from the front freeing up a significant mass fraction of armor that would've gone to the turret that could be invested in additional protection to the vulnerable top, sides, and bottom of the vehicle. This meant that the T-14 would always be more protected than any other equivalent NATO vehicles, as long as they buy into the retarded bustle ammo stowage.

    That is still awaiting production.
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Dec 11, 2023 9:40 am

    william.boutros wrote:

    That is still awaiting production.

    They are waiting for the first batch of armor cadets who trained on the Armata platform to graduate.

    Makes no sense to pump up production before you have a steady stream of trained crews.

    The T-14 itself will have no contenders for at least 15 years anyway. Realistically never because:
    a. NATO's industrial capacity is so decrepit they can only produce stuff in boutique numbers.
    b. China is only interested in becoming Russia's largest trading partner.
    c. A truly next gen armor program is simply too expensive for everyone else.

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    Post  william.boutros Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:43 am

    lyle6 wrote:
    william.boutros wrote:

    That is still awaiting production.

    They are waiting for the first batch of armor cadets who trained on the Armata platform to graduate.

    Makes no sense to pump up production before you have a steady stream of trained crews.

    The T-14 itself will have no contenders for at least 15 years anyway. Realistically never because:
    a. NATO's industrial capacity is so decrepit they can only produce stuff in boutique numbers.
    b. China is only interested in becoming Russia's largest trading partner.
    c. A truly next gen armor program is simply too expensive for everyone else.

    The low cost of smart weapons and their proliferation will make drastic changes to artillery, tanks and armor protection.
    Warfare would essentially be reinvented possibly around recon, camouflage, electronic warfare and smart weapon delivery systems. Armata's tank could be obsolete by the time it is produced in sufficient numbers. Perhaps its crew protection module would still be relevant but with a different configuration of armament.

    I suspect drone carriers of varying calibers might as well fulfill the task of

    1- Artillery.
    2- Fire support in urban combat.
    3- Elimination of hardened defensive position.


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    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:39 pm

    The low cost of smart weapons and their proliferation will make drastic changes to artillery, tanks and armor protection.

    No such thing as low cost smart weapons in the west, and change is normal for everything.

    Everything has a counter and every counter has a counter.

    Cheap light FPV drones can be countered with light screen camouflage and nets and cages etc.

    Optically guided drones could be blinded by laser systems.... you can't fly your drone into a target if you can't see anything... whether that is by laser blinding or by jamming the video signal or by popping smoke.

    The main problem is most of the time you don't know you are under attack until it is too late.

    Airborne sensors like MMW radars airborne in balloons could be invaluable near the front lines to detect low flying small drones.

    Reminiscent of WWI with observation balloons used by both sides to correct artillery at a time when planes were pathetic string bags.

    Warfare would essentially be reinvented possibly around recon, camouflage, electronic warfare and smart weapon delivery systems. Armata's tank could be obsolete by the time it is produced in sufficient numbers. Perhaps its crew protection module would still be relevant but with a different configuration of armament.

    Experts have been proclaiming the extinction of the tank since it was invented, but there really is nothing that could replace a powerful mobile gun mount that is mobile because it is tracked and powerful because it carries a big gun and has excellent optics systems to find and engage targets, and rather elaborate protection to defend it from most of the weapons the enemy might use to defeat it.

    I suspect drone carriers of varying calibers might as well fulfill the task of

    The problem for drones is that to carry a decent HE payload they need to be a bit heavier which makes them easier to detect and deal with.

    Anti drone technology will improve... a laser station for  an Armata tank with a LIDAR system to detect drones in the air and perhaps designed to amp up the laser power to physically defeat the drone or perhaps just blind its optical sensor... or just pop smoke.

    Friendly drones could be tasked with dealing with enemy drones... the Russians have successfully implimented a drone control system that uses AI to deal with rather more targets than any human could deal with... which is the main threat to most things on the battlefield... being overwhelmed.

    Even the most heroic and powerful soldier can't suppress enemy fire coming from dozens of different locations at once... one of them will get him... that is why when the enemy is attacking in waves that outnumber the defenders 5 to one or more the attack often succeeds  because the defenders can't stop enough enemy soldiers before they can close the distance and kill you so you have to retreat.

    The game the Russians have been playing is to retreat while taking out a few enemy but you retreat to your next defensive line and then get your own artillery to hit your first line defences that are now occupied by the enemy.... who will be shattered after taking the position from you at great cost to now face your artillery and your counter attack... no wonder Uke loses were so bad.

    Having a stack of AI drones that can be launched from a rear area when the enemy attack that will fly over friendly forces and then attack enemy men and vehicles would be a very capable way of blunting most attacks without needing a lot of men... a few sniper rifles and a few light machine guns and medium machine guns and moving around a bit from defensive position to defensive position and it would be very costly to take that line from you... and even if you do at enormous loss... then artillery arrives along with more drones... a blood bath.


    Last edited by GarryB on Wed Dec 13, 2023 2:00 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:44 pm

    The Armata is going to be part of the new team that might have extra Terminator type vehicles with 30mm or 23mm or 57mm guns with airburst ammo dedicated to hitting enemy positions and shooting down drones.

    The T-14 will be part of that team using new long range optics and sensors to find targets and share enemy position information... not to mention the information they get from friendly drones and friendly attack helicopters etc etc and nearby recon platforms and AWACS aircraft etc etc.

    Armata is a vehicle family that will include tanks and BMPs and BTRs and also air defence vehicles and artillery vehicles and ATGM vehicles and everything else in an armoured division.

    Cages and APS systems and electronic jamming as well as likely laser jamming systems, not to mention Nakidka and other sophisticated systems and equipment, they will be operating with other armata based vehicles carrying all sorts of weapons and missiles.

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    Post  lyle6 Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:29 pm

    william.boutros wrote:
    The low cost of smart weapons and their proliferation will make drastic changes to artillery, tanks and armor protection.
    Warfare would essentially be reinvented possibly around recon, camouflage, electronic warfare and smart weapon delivery systems.
    The MBT will just have to evolve in response. Higher emphasis on active protection systems and stealth, tighter coordination with the anti-air and electronic warfare arms, improved modularity and maintainability for sustained attrition against low cost threats.

    Drones aren't all bad for armor either. They provide an excellent solution to the tank's tunnel vision in the far field and almost non-existent situational awareness in the near field. With forward observation by drones and munitions on call the possibility of suffering ambushes is decreased significantly.

    william.boutros wrote:
    Armata's tank could be obsolete by the time it is produced in sufficient numbers. Perhaps its crew protection module would still be relevant but with a different configuration of armament.
    And yet the T-14 is about the only MBT design that addresses the top attack threat directly. Specifically high end missile and artillery submunition threats developed at the tail end of the cold war. Compared to those the COTS UAV threat is not even that hard.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 13, 2023 2:12 am

    For the cold war when the Soviets were the bad guys the story was that they didn't care about their men and put them in small lightweight under protected tanks that were uncomfortable and unsafe... autoloaders that ripped off arms, thin armour etc etc... but actually it turns out they have invested in a wide range of technologies to keep their tanks and tank crews safe over the years with ERA and composite armour and autoloaders to reduce the internal volume required for the crew and weapons making the whole tank smaller and lighter but not with reduced protection levels.

    Their experiments with APS systems is ongoing but they have needed a lot of work to avoid making them counter productive where the MMW radar signals from the systems attract fire and allow the enemy to precisely track your operational tank units individually.

    Nakidka, cage armour, Shtora EO protection systems, smoke systems, they all add up to make a tank safer... if not safe.

    There is no such thing as safe on a battlefield. Anyone claiming any different is lying to you.

    Turns out the Russians do learn lessons from conflict and as we can see in the current conflict in Ukraine they learned many lessons the west forgot.

    Every invasion to steal resources or restore a despot to power that was under their control they always ran out of cruise missiles, yet never learned the lesson that maybe building up reserve stocks might be a good idea and that any stock level you might decide on as affordable you will probably have to increase it by a factor of 10 or 30 to be useful.

    Russia is not about to introduce a new tank, they are introducing five new armoured vehicle families... Armata, Kurganets, Boomerang, Typhoon, and DT-30 arctic tractors. That is in addition to the smaller vehicles like Tigr and Patrol etc.

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