[Official] Armata Discussion thread #6

lyle6 wrote:
What's more unfortunate is that a lot of people lack the comprehension to read between the lines:
They are disbanding the test company to make way for actual combat formations - the tests are finally done.
All that's left to do is wait for their crews to graduate tank school which, surprise, surprise, is next year

I believe that what Murakhovskiy is talking about is that they scrapped plans to form experimental unit with Armata tanks for deployment to SMO zone.

I've seen worse capstone proposals.

Ramjets also make for expensive ammo. Russia doesn't want scarce silver bullets, they want mass producible wooden stakes that will **** any number of opponents.

A ramjet is one of the most simple jet designs... there are not spinning blades or disks, I suspect the real core of the problem is that in the 1-2 seconds of flight from the tank to the target there is little opportunity for the ramjet to do very much other than countering the extra drag the ramjet section would create and as its top speed at sea level might only be mach three which is actually rather slower by half the speed of a simple APFSDS core then they likely decided it wasn't really worth it.

Having a scramjet powered penetrator changes things though if the velocity can be increased and maintained so for short range shots out to about 5km normal current APFSDS rounds already do the job... but with drone support detecting targets 10km or more away you could fire a scramjet powered APFSDS round at an elevation of perhaps 10 or more degrees and have it steer to hit a target spotted by a drone... you could use a vectored thrust exhaust nozzle for the scramjet motor for low drag steering without external control surfaces and if it can be made to fly at 2km per second it would be very potent... Zircon flies at 3km/s at altitude...

This concept might be interesting for helicopter launched missiles designed to hit and kill targets at the 20-40km flight distances where the first 20km of flight is accelerating to a speed where the kinetic metal core becomes effective. At shorter ranges then just use conventional missiles already in use with HEAT warheads.

Cost is a factor, but I think they are deliberately leaving this ace in the hole for when they really need a massive almost overnight surge in anti-armor capability.

Cost is certainly a factor but if we look at history when they developed gun tube launched guided missiles they didn't get rid of conventional rounds and just have missile tanks like the Sheridan was designed to do. They had about 8 missiles per ammo load and I would expect if they had 15km range scramjet powered APFSDS rounds they would likely only carry a half dozen of them per tank load too as many targets detected at such range would be soft targets for which APFSDS would not be particularly suitable anyway.

The T-14 needs an APS that can INTERCEPT top attacks from ATGMs, loitering munitions, and artillery. Artillery fire has disabled a lot of tanks in this war.

Bill2 and Javelin and Copperhead and Excalibr are not new systems so I would expect the T-14s APS system can deal with top attack weapons.

They are also working on mini SAMs of about 10kgs with active radar homing and a 3kg warhead to deal with artillery (tube and rocket) and other types of enemy delivered munitions... which would also include drones etc... though I suspect 23mm airburst shells would be widely deployed to deal with the majority of enemy drones.

I believe that what Murakhovskiy is talking about is that they scrapped plans to form experimental unit with Armata tanks for deployment to SMO zone.

I rather suspect they realised that T-14 is no super tank and that the things that will destroy their current tanks and current western tanks will also be a threat to T-14s as well, and all the BS about Leopard IIs and now Challenger IIs and soon Abrams tanks that the publicity would not be worth it...

They can continue to draw conclusions from the equipment they are using now and develop new tactics with new technologies they can add to their new vehicle families as they mature.

GarryB wrote:
Bill2 and Javelin and Copperhead and Excalibr are not new systems so I would expect the T-14s APS system can deal with top attack weapons.

I expect it too but I have yet to see any evidence that a top attack threat can be actively countered by the hard kill APS. I've seen only vertically oriented "smoke" canister launchers to provide an IR opaque screen. Soft kill.

BenVaserlan wrote:

I expect it too but I have yet to see any evidence that a top attack threat can be actively countered by the hard kill APS.  I've seen only vertically oriented "smoke" canister launchers to provide an IR opaque screen.  Soft kill.

Apparently there are hardkill interceptors for the vertical "smoke"tubes.

new electronics hoping for optics

I have seen an ARENA drawing showing munitions defending from direct line of sight weapons and also diving top attack weapons but I don't know if it has been implemented or not.

It is certainly not difficult or complex... most of the diving weapons are not moving at anything like the speed of direct fire weapons so the interception should not be that complex.

This is the usual drawing:



This is the other one which launches fragments horizontally and vertically for direct and diving top attack threats:



If you look at the sensors for Armata you can see it covers threats from above:



and there is this drawing as well:



Which is clearly the old ARENA system with the sensor tower and the direct fire threats defeated by munitions launched up into the air to send fragments downwards in the path of the incoming threat which reduces the danger to nearby friendlies because the fragments of the interceptor are directed down into the ground... but the other munition is directing fragments upwards at a diving target.

I guess the problem is the scud issue, when patriots were used to intercept modified scud missiles in desert storm even the few that hit the target failed to stop the missile because they would shred the engine and fuel tanks but the warhead would fall intact and do damage anyway.

A horizontal threat might be driven into the ground or have its angle of attack shifted to make it much less effective while a falling warhead needs to be set off prematurely or destroyed to effectively stop it.

I rather have confidence that they have cracked it and don't want to say because why would you tell the west that Javelin is useless and not just because of camouflage or DIRCM laser jammers jamming the optical guidance... a laser seeker is also optical guidance...

new electronics hoping for optics

Would assume operational practise with the northern military district as well as limited testing in Ukraine would allow them to find any problems or issues that prevent them operating the way they want to operate them... this is rather good news.

The robotic turret is such an unfair advantage.

On one hand it allows the vehicle to stay at an optimum weight class without sacrificing protection. The hull citadel is as well protected as ever because it is no longer competing with the turret in the limited armor mass fraction.

On the other it perfects the very same terrain hugging techniques that mask the previously vulnerable hull. Because while in a static hull down or jockeying between firing points you still need to expose the turret momentarily, but if its unmanned, it doesn't really matter much if the turret is exposed or not. You're not risking anything significant beyond the expendable combat package, so fire away.

Look I know this is supposed to be posted on the electronics thread but if the Armata is getting new electronics I think there is a super high chance now it will have 20km infrared detection capabilities. https://www.ruselectronics.ru/news/25370-roselektronika-razrabotala-vsevidyashchuyu-infrakrasnuyu-kameru-s-dalnostyu-obnaruzheniya-do-20-km/

Ruselectronics has developed an "all-seeing" infrared camera with a detection range of up to 20 km



The Ruselectronics Holding of Rostec State Corporation has released the first prototypes of a universal infrared television camera capable of "seeing" tens of kilometers in all weather conditions and at any time of the day.

The new devices are part of the line of television cameras developed by the Central Research Institute "Electron" (part of "Ruselectronics") for operation in conditions of poor visibility. A number of modifications can be used in drones, ground-based surveillance systems, as part of surveillance and tracking onboard systems of various aircraft, for example, during rescue operations.

The camera operates in the near-infrared range of 0.95-1.65 μm and can be synchronized with laser illumination. The photons reflected from the detected objects are read by a special television sensor in a sealed case, inside of which there is a radiation-sensitive photocathode and an electronically sensitive matrix in a vacuum. Such know-how of the specialists of the Central Research Institute "Electron" allows you to reduce the amount of noise interference and increase the resolution of the camera.

Since the main signal that the device captures is the laser illumination received at the set time, the foreground and background of the image are suppressed. When using laser illumination, the equipment detects objects at a distance of up to 20 km and generates a high-resolution image even in complete darkness, in conditions of fog, rain, dust storms, etc. "Near-infrared cameras are in stable demand from both military and civilian customers, since such devices are indispensable for solving a whole range of tasks.

For example, our product can be used to detect people on the water during rescue operations. A SWIR camera at night allows you to observe objects an order of magnitude clearer than devices operating in the visible spectral range. And when using laser illumination, the detection range of objects in our device is 3-3.5 times greater than that of medium- and long-wave systems. Thus, our development "looks" further and "sees" better, "said Alexey Vyaznikov, General Director of the Central Research Institute "Electron".

Central Research Institute "Electron" is the leading enterprise in Russia for the development and production of photoelectronic devices, devices and cameras.

For reference the 3rd Gen FLIR promisided for the SepV4 which I think got cancelled for Abrams X uses long wave and midwave infrared detection https://asc.army.mil/web/portfolio-item/iews-third-generation-forward-looking-infrared/ this camera speaks of SWIR and near infrared which offers higher resolution capabilities that what was proposed as the 3rd gen FLIR. so I think Russia might have atleast surpassed the U.S. in infrared technology if I am reading this article right, because in 2020 sepv4s received them with 20.8km range capabilities while the russians got the same range but with a more clear resolution.

This means the 20km ATGM can be supported to hit its target by
1. its drone.
2.possibly radar since sources said 100km and tracking 40 targets, some didn't believe the range so lets say 20km
3. High resolution infrared detection with laser illumination.

Actually it sounds like a hybrid active IR device... the enemy would detect its use because of the IR laser being used, but most of the time... who cares.

In a sense it is effectively and optical Lidar system, but then they have laser radar systems too which are also very interesting and create 3D models of the scene around the sensor in real time.

GarryB wrote:Actually it sounds like a hybrid active IR device... the enemy would detect its use because of the IR laser being used, but most of the time... who cares.

In a sense it is effectively and optical Lidar system, but then they have laser radar systems too which are also very interesting and create 3D models of the scene around the sensor in real time.

The LWIR optics mounted on current vehicles already provide very good detection, but poor resolution, especially at extreme ranges. A NIR sensor with active laser illumination should provide that resolution required for actually identifying target for destruction. And since you're already trained on the target getting detected yourself shouldn't be a problem since you already have a weapon pointed at him. Just squeeze the trigger.

If it really bothers people the illuminator doesn't even have to be on the same vehicle. A drone can lase for the tank and it just so happens that this is also a very viable guidance means for the types of weapons that can reach out to targets beyond CQB ranges.

Video has embedded Russian subs. Turn on auto-translate for English.

besides the future plans of 152mm cannons I heard before 30mm antiaircraft cannons were suggested as well. If so there should be 30mm detonation rounds than the 23mm detonation rounds showcased at the army forum to have the Armata as a super effective solution against enemy drone swarms with the assistance of super precision firecontrol radar in the range of 26ghz-40ghz(I hope for future planed PICs than MMICs for these radars) tracking combined with high precision infrared detection all sensor fused with the T-14 computer for the best target accuracy.

But of course before sending 100s of T-14s ever into Ukraine they need to backed by the newest and best produced howitzers, MLRS and demining vehicles available.

The future plans for air defence seem to be 2S38 which is currently based on a BMP-3 chassis but in the future of course will be based on Armata and Kurganets and Boomerang and Typhoon and DT-30 chassis.

The 23mm airburst rounds have been recently mentioned because they are the smallest calibre they have such rounds in so far, but they have 57mm air burst and 30mm air burst rounds already AFAIK.

The 30mm airburst rounds will likely be used for a variety of uses including by BMPs and helicopters as well as air defence guns because an airburst of rounds above a group of soldiers is more effective than the rounds exploding as they hit the ground.

The 23mm rounds will likely be cheaper than the larger calibre rounds so can probably be produced and deployed in large numbers, which of course would be important for air defence against drones which can appear anywhere.

The 23mm shell fired by the 23 x 152mm AA guns is the same projectile as that used in the aircraft carried 23mm guns like the Hind in the turret and gun pod so any air burst rounds for the Shilka and ZU-23-2 could also be loaded into the guns of the Hind and MiG-21 and aircraft mounted gun pods and also carried by the MiG-31.

The new 57mm AA gun rounds probably are big enough to be able to use airburst shells against conventional aircraft targets. The fragments and size of the HE charge in a 23mm round would probably only really damage small light drone targets made of plastic or cardboard...

although we dont have exact specifications on the Armatas range than the claim 100kms, https://vestnik-rm.ru/news/oborona-i-bezopasnost/s-novejshimi-radarami-tanki-t-14-armata-budut-dominirovat-na-pole-boya-21-veka?ysclid=lmn0qgq2xt40629189 The T-95 was tested before with radar system that allowed it to see targets at 10kms, high hopes that afghanit with AESA has a longer range radius than that, and higher extreme hopes of the PIC production line in 2024 replaces the MMICs for afghanit.

Why would an MBT require a sensor with a detection range many times greater than the engagement range of its weapons?

Doesn't make a lot of sense.

An MBT is primarily occupied with the close quarter battle. Here engagements are decided not in luxurious minutes but sparse seconds - an APFSDS arrow will take but one in typical encounter distances. The T-14 will have its hands full controlling this tactical knife fight to offer processing time on targets much further back.

The tank can share tactical information of what its radars can see with other air defense units in which what those air defense radars cant see. There is a radar horizon limit with radars which I fully understand https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en-US/calculator/radar-horizon/ Say that you have an S-500 placed 500kms away from the enemy location you need to go to and the T-14 armata with PICs give it a 100km tracking range. The enemy aircraft is flying 600kms away from the from the S-500 at a flight altitude of 1 km. This limits the S-500 radars from tracking it since its range will only be 137kms. However a T-14 was around the area, shares the radar data with the S-500 and the S-500 uses its 600km range SAMs to knock it down.

Lets say an offensive happens, assuming Russia has a superfast demining vehicle created the T-14s would be next in line, than short range air defense systems to cover the troops and maybe the tank. I am assuming it is not a good idea to use a hard kill APS with troops next to the T-14. A enemy kamikaze drone flies 25 meters high and the radars at best is placed 3 meters high on the tank pantsir-sm is at a considerable distance and can't see the drone but the T-14 being further up front with its radar allowed the pantsir to use its 40km missiles to hit the drone, and maybe in the future russians can modify short range SAMs to be further extended passed 40kms. There might be helicopters passed 20kms away which might avoid the tank assuming the enemy knows about its capabilities to target troops in the back but the radar managed to still track it passed 20kms to allow other air defense units to hit it or alert the air defense operators of what kind of target it is and how to eliminate it.

Maybe they can create new ATGMs that can get passed 20kms, and the T-14 is at a higher elevation on a hill or mountain than another enemy tank.

The T-14 might enter urban areas like a town or a city, no way in hell you would want short range air defenses to enter such locations without getting destroyed by personel. ukrainians don't care if they launch rockets at their own troops in the city or town and the tank might track it on radar and the air defenses outside the city or town can intercept those incoming rockets. using an ATGM against a helicopter in the town and city might be a pain and it can share radar data with air defenses to take care of it if there missiles can reach on what their radars cant see.

long range radars on tanks have their uses. but as you stated earlier before the tank somehow taking care of mines should be the top priority if a solution comes up later.

The problems of very small RCS targets or zero RCS targets are likely better solved with LIDAR.... or laser radar, because even the most powerful radar that can detect a cardboard drone will also detect birds and large insects and all sorts of other crap that will overwhelm the system.

Equally an active laser detection system cannot be detect hundreds of kms away by platforms like JSTARS which could use radar emissions from T-14 tanks to precisely locate them on the battlefield and to plan and coordinate attacks on said vehicles.

That is the reason the APS system for T-14 includes an optical component.

thegopnik wrote:The tank can share tactical information of what its radars can see with other air defense units in which what those air defense radars cant see. There is a radar horizon limit with radars which I fully understand https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en-US/calculator/radar-horizon/ Say that you have an S-500 placed 500kms away from the enemy location you need to go to and the T-14 armata with PICs give it a 100km tracking range. The enemy aircraft is flying 600kms away from the from the S-500 at a flight altitude of 1 km. This limits the S-500 radars from tracking it since its range will only be 137kms. However a T-14 was around the area, shares the radar data with the S-500 and the S-500 uses its 600km range SAMs to knock it down.

It won't happen as you describe it anyway, because an MBT's maneuver scheme requires frequent bursts of movements between cover and concealment while only making sightlines on the attack. This makes an MBT a very poor radio station even ignoring all the logistics associated with merging these two incongrous roles together.

Not that the MBT even needs a radar to act as a recon element, because as the spear tip of the maneuver force the MBT is expected to generate the vast majority of enemy contacts. Not only is armor leading the way physically, its also dangerous enough to provoke a greater reaction than other types of probing action because an armored column can very easily punch through all but well prepared and supported opposition. You can't ignore it either or you will have tanks running rampant in your rear.

Not trying to be funny but i was going to put this on the short range air defense thread until I realized they are talking about Ka-band which unironically is the same exact frequencry range that the T-14 radars operate in. https://ruselectronics.ru/news/25243-roselektronika-pokazala-na-armii2023-novyy-usilitel-moshchnosti-dlya-zrk-blizhnego-deystviya/

At Army-2023, the Ruselectronics Holding of the Rostec State Corporation showed a new Ka-band semiconductor power amplifier for use in short-range anti-aircraft missile systems as part of radar stations. The use of the device will significantly reduce the size of the radar and reduce their power consumption, increase reliability and service life.

The amplifier was developed by NPP Salute, which is part of Ruselectronics. The new product was a continuation of the line of high-power solid-state devices based on gallium nitride created at the enterprise. The presented power amplifier is distinguished by the possibility of continuous operation for at least 24 hours, which allows it to be used as part of stationary radars. The developers managed to solve a complex thermal problem in conditions of small dimensions. The power amplifier has a built-in secondary power supply and control, its own cooling system and ventilation. The high efficiency of the cooling system is ensured by the use of carbon-containing heat sinks.

The amplifier operates in the Ka-band, has an average power of 350 W and a pulse power of about 1 kW, which makes it possible for radar stations based on it to detect low-contrast targets, such as drones, at a distance of up to 10 km.

"Solid-state devices based on gallium nitride are able to replace electrovacuum amplifiers as part of the radar, while they do not require high-voltage power supply, have small dimensions and weight, are characterized by increased reliability and electromagnetic compatibility. NPP Salyut has extensive experience in the development and production of solid-state radio transmitting devices of the Ku and Ka bands. The expertise available in this area allows the company to solve the problems of creating solid-state radar systems of various microwave ranges, both ground-based and air-based, "said Alexander Bushuev, General Director of NPP Salyut.

Maybe the T-14 armata will get new radars as well that consume less power in part of its electronics replacement upgrade. With the talks of massive drone production and sticking GaN radars for short range air defenses suggest they solved the electronics production problem before China but wont disclose that they did.

What we know so far:
>32 round capacity
Beats the crap out of any autoloader apart from the M1 TTB autoloader, which has 44 but very anemic 120x570mm  cartridges.
>Maximum projectile length is 1100mm. Current Vacuum-1/2 are 900mm projectiles with 25x780mm DU/WHA cores - similar to the M829A4/3. A 30:1 aspect ratio seems to be the optimal for flight stability and terminal ballistics reasons.

>Uses 152x500mm propellant charges
NATO Rh120 use 140x570mm propellant charges but a sizeable volume is occupied by the projectile and sabot.
When you take into account the integral propellant charge that seats the projectile the available chamber volume can very easily reach 140mm main gun levels.
Its clear that the 2A82-1M isn't just a straightforward upgrade, its a stealth jump in caliber without changing calibers
>10-12 rpm
Perfectly adequate. But with zero possibility of human limbs in the way can be further increased still.
>situated below the turret ring
Perfectly safe in hull down against direct fire and protected by an overkill hull citadel.

Dasha doesn't' know this, but the T-14 with the chipped paint participated in the SMO.
A brave hohol cyborg died chipping that paint.

T-16 and other engineering vehicles:

You mean Bunga Bunga?
RIP Berlusconi.