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    Zmeevik New hypersonic AShBM

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:57 am

    It is hardly relevant.
    The point is, that Russian anti ship weaponry is light years ahead of the competition, so they physically don't need new toys.
    Only increasing saturation of the old ones.
    Landing the Bastion system on the Kuriles or parking it near Vlad makes the Sea of Japan closed - a whole of it is in range. And a big part of mainland Japan either.
    And we don't talk Tsirkon yet ...
    Considering the perspective, I can fully understand why they have frozen a project that won't bring any principal difference other than the range.
    Russkie had a long tradition of canceling weapon systems that proved to be way oversized for the task - vide Meteorit.

    Zmeevik New hypersonic AShBM - Page 3 Meteorit_m_scheme

    A Mach 4 cruise missile with two independently targeting separable warheads and 3000+ km range was a serious overkill. It would be one even now ...

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    Post  Hole Fri Oct 06, 2023 12:35 pm

    Like Rubezh and Barguzin this is a project that can be easily brought back to life.
    All needed parts are already there.
    So if someone does something stupid...

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:10 pm

    It is hardly relevant.
    The point is, that Russian anti ship weaponry is light years ahead of the competition, so they physically don't need new toys.

    The point you are missing is that by designing a new ground based missile to defeat the most sophisticated and capable air defence systems available to the west today they are not really designing an anti ship missile... they are designing a new intermediate range missile they can use throughout Europe and Asia and even against targets in Alaska like the US ABM system they are filling a huge gap left by the INF treaty.

    It is a weapon system that will be enormously valuable in defeating point targets on land or at sea several thousands of kms beyond Russian borders and in many ways they could develop a sub carried vertical launched version that perhaps fits the UKSK launcher so that they can have a sub that can attack land and sea targets from extended distances from any direction.

    And we don't talk Tsirkon yet ...

    Not the same as a system you can build in Kaliningrad and threaten all of Europe out to and including the UK and Portugal, or a similar set up in Vladivostok that can reach all of Alaska and a lot of the west coast of the US of A.

    Considering the perspective, I can fully understand why they have frozen a project that won't bring any principal difference other than the range.
    Russkie had a long tradition of canceling weapon systems that proved to be way oversized for the task - vide Meteorit.

    But that is the gap that they have. The US is now working hard to create medium and intermediate range ballistic missiles... the sort of thing S-300 can shoot down, while these new missiles they are working on will be difficult for S-400 to defeat...

    A Mach 4 cruise missile with two independently targeting separable warheads and 3000+ km range was a serious overkill. It would be one even now ...

    Not really... the core problem is that the only way it could fly at mach 3 or 4 was to fly high where it would be spotted from quite some distance away making interception a higher possibility, so the much slower but also much cheaper and more compact Kh-101/102 got the nod instead... and not just because they can carry more internally and on Bears externally.

    Like Rubezh and Barguzin this is a project that can be easily brought back to life.

    Today the Meteorite with a scramjet motor would actually be rather interesting and probably rather smaller too... but much much faster.

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    Post  Hole Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:18 pm

    Today the Meteorite
    I meant the Zmeevik missile.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The point you are missing is that by designing a new ground based missile to defeat the most sophisticated and capable air defence systems available to the west today they are not really designing an anti ship missile...

    Not at all.
    They do have these types of missiles either.
    The gap between Russia and the west is getting ridiculously wide.
    It is years ahead when NATO will field any weapon system that will equal to the ones they have for two decades.
    We are talking two generations advantage.
    It is a very wise point to stop, just to take a ook how the things will develop, because those will. One way or another.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:48 am

    I meant the Zmeevik missile.

    My mistake, but my point still stands, this is not going to be a IRBM because Russia doesn't make pure ballistic missiles any more... it might have a solid rocket booster and be scramjet powered all the way to the target in which case it would be better called an IRCM or MRCM depending on the flight range.


    Not at all.
    They do have these types of missiles either.

    Not ground launched with a flight range of over 500km that has the speed to defeat a proper layered air defence system.

    Ie they could easily mount the Kh-101 in a truck and have a missile with a range of 4,500km and excellent accuracy, but a subsonic weapon approaching a carrier group with operational AWACS and AEGIS class cruisers operating is not going to reliably get through in large numbers.

    A Zircon or other hypersonic missile like Dagger probably will get through... it is not just about speed and not even just about manouver because the missile needs the onboard systems so it knows when it is being tracked and when Active Radar Homing intercept missiles are approaching so it knows to manouver and perhaps deploy jammers or decoys.

    The point is that ground launched Zircon reaches 1,000 to 1,500km against ground targets while Dagger reaches 2,000km but is air launched and when it is ground launched it has a range of 500km.

    The lack of a missile to do essentially the same thing in the flight ranges between 500 and 5,500km with a conventional cheap ground launch weapon is not critical and is not a horrible vulnerability for Russia, but moving forward it would be a nice system to have to put capitals in the EU and hostile Asian countries and of course all of Alaska and their ABM systems under direct threat.

    Its range should allow it to engage any AEGIS class cruiser the Americans might think of sending to the Arctic ocean to have a shot at any Russian missiles heading over the north pole with their SM-6 Standard missiles designed for that very purpose, and they will station cruisers in the Pacific and Atlantic oceans in the hope they might get a chance to hit missiles on their way too.

    It is the sort of missile that can clear the way through an ABM network because it is not a ballistic weapon... it will be like Iskander and be called quasi ballistic... powered all the way except it will likely be a scramjet that can throttle up and down to efficiently use fuel all the way to maintain the highest possible speed.

    The gap between Russia and the west is getting ridiculously wide.

    Which makes no difference to western politicians because they have no idea and no career soldier (the political ones) would dare tell their political leadership how bad things actually are for fear of being called Putins Puppet and fired and the political ones care more about their career than they care about the truth or saving their country.

    It is years ahead when NATO will field any weapon system that will equal to the ones they have for two decades.
    We are talking two generations advantage.

    I know... it is amusing when you see western experts talking about maybe creating a network for their anti ship missiles so they could hunt as a pack and communicate to destroy a group of ships... the way the Soviets did in the late 1970s.

    It is interesting that the air power of the west caused them to take both attack (cruise missiles and antiship missiles and other attack systems) and defence (air defence radar and SAMs and guns and EW equipment and networking) very very seriously, but the west knew the Soviets and Russians had sophisticated air defences and their solutions were... fly low... then fly fast.... then be stealthy... then fly low in a stealthy aircraft, and now use swarms of impossibly large numbers of attackers.

    They changed tactics as each method was proven impossible but they still think the bomber will get through... well maybe if you target an isolated useless undefended civilian or near civilian target it might if it is super stealthy latest technology European cruise missile, but really the effort was really not worth the reward... and in a real conflict most of their military will be in the process of being dismembered so such pathetic attacks would be a horrible waste of resources.

    But it allows them to pretend that Kiev is inept and if they were running the show (which they essentially are) that they would be in Moscow by now toasting victory with Navalny, the new Russia president.

    It is a very wise point to stop, just to take a ook how the things will develop, because those will. One way or another.

    I agree, at a time when other things need attention and you can't do everything and still do a good job on everything, then it makes sense to put on hold the more exotic things to get the more urgent things done properly.

    The delay might allow new materials and sensors and equipment to be used to make it even better... that essentially happened with the MiG-29M... the aircraft that flew this century was rather better than the MiG-29M that first flew in 1988, and the same could be said for the Su-27M and the Su-35.

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