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    Exporting Nuclear Submarines

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:14 pm

    So, now that US opened the Pandora's box by selling SSN, how long before the Yasen-E and chinese export nuclear Ping-Pong sub according to you ? Very Happy
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:56 pm

    Isos wrote:So, now that US opened the Pandora's box by selling SSN, how long before the Yasen-E and chinese export nuclear Ping-Pong sub according to you ? Very Happy

    Well both back in the 1950's the USSR transferred nuke sub tech (including missile tech) to China, Type 6631.

    The US transferred propulsion tech only to the UK in the 50's.

    So this is nothing new, just been a very long time since it's been done.
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    Post  limb Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:14 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    TMA1 wrote:...looks like a freaking AWACS in there. Awesome

    They are the Internet workstations for the off duty crew Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Nah, thats only on USN boats.  LGBTqwerty faggotry on-demand, 24-7-365, with double doses on weekends.  Optional privacy screens for those who prefer safe spaces.  Tax payer supplied toys, lube and tissues.  Dedicated crewman to manage the "leisure center".

    Really displays the intrinsic superiority of a privately-owned MIC for elite profit...   Twisted Evil
    I for one hope Russian subs still have saunas, and also comfortable showers. On US subs you're only allowed to shower for 1 minute and 30 seconds because the desalination system gets put under too much pressure. 1 minute and 30 seconds is not near enough to wash yourself, so no wonder US subs got bed bugs, not to mention americans are filthy unhygienic people to begin.

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    Post  marcellogo Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:21 pm

    Isos wrote:So, now that US opened the Pandora's box by selling SSN, how long before the Yasen-E and chinese export nuclear Ping-Pong sub according to you ? Very Happy

    Well, I think there will be even the possibility that China itself will order russian subs as it seems to struggle into producing their own.


    For the rest just looking at Australia geographical position, ordering nuclear subs instead of conventional ones make a lot of sense for them.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:40 pm

    marcellogo wrote:...For the rest just looking at Australia geographical position, ordering nuclear subs instead of conventional ones make a lot of sense for them.

    Correct

    Distances alone make nuke subs perfectly logical choice

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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:04 pm

    I totally agree. Australia is huge and surrounded by "blue water" which is oceans. Diesel sub are not made for such places.

    But what I mean is that both Russia and US were ok by not exporting anything that has nuk inside be it weapons or propulsion even to closest allies, China and UK being an exeption from the very begining of the cold war. Now it changes everything with this US move.

    And Russia needs US and China to be busy in the pacific so Yasen-E may be a total success at export. Both China and Indian would order them. China 10-12, india 4-6.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:24 pm

    marcellogo wrote:
    Isos wrote:So, now that US opened the Pandora's box by selling SSN, how long before the Yasen-E and chinese export nuclear Ping-Pong sub according to you ? Very Happy

    Well, I think there will be even the possibility that China itself will order russian subs as it seems to struggle into producing their own.


    For the rest just looking at Australia geographical position, ordering nuclear subs instead of conventional ones make a lot of sense for them.

    Unlikely Russia will sell them any or that China would buy many if China did buy any it would be to steal any information they could and reverse engineer it.

    Why would Russia sell then anyways? All they need is Chinese subs in the water, they don't need to be any good so it makes zero sense that they would offer the Chinese anything has China can produce their own submarines.

    India on the other hand would be more likely.

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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:41 pm

    You can't just build a modern submarine without a background of building submarines.

    Both India and China are lacking experience and mature technology to build something good. And you can't get such technology in a simple way. It takes years of study and testing, it's fucking complicated to get something good. Too many parameters that all need years and years of study but also long time of testing.

    Just look how even US subs are loosing their noise reduction pannels.

    So yeah if they buy Russian subs it will be to copy them but Russia won't sell just one. It will be many or nothing and it would be an export version at the level of first Akula subs but with kalibr missiles so worth the money.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:12 pm

    Many or nothing? China has bought Russian hardware before and just backed out of the deal after they got a few units.

    They have a long history of doing this to many others.

    That is true but copying technical information reduces that time significantly. This is what China cares about, they do not expect their gear to match but to be decent.

    Heck they bought old Russian ships to study them and now they can outproduce the Russian, with China it's a long-term goal.

    So no selling them submarines would be a huge mistake. The Russians are already extremely hesitant to sell them things has is because of thise

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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:08 am


    While selling monkey versions of Yasen would theoretically be extremely lucrative it will not be happening simply because Russia needs it's entire submarine construction output for itself (on top of all other reasons listed) so it's pointless to argue about it

    Second hand Akula sales is best India or China can hope for and even that would cost insane amounts of money (Akula rental is 6 billion FFS...)


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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:16 am

    For the rest just looking at Australia geographical position, ordering nuclear subs instead of conventional ones make a lot of sense for them.

    There are no real threats to Australia, I would say surface ships make more sense... you are not going to board smugglers ships or human traffickers with a nuclear powered sub... or any type of sub.

    Such a vessel makes more sense going to the waters of other countries to piss them off... so perhaps a case of Australian whiskey on chinas rocks... they are trying to suck up to the US as usual... it was hilarious when Biden forgot the name of that guy in charge of Australia at the moment...

    Yeah... special relationship there...

    Unlikely Russia will sell them any or that China would buy many if China did buy any it would be to steal any information they could and reverse engineer it.

    Russia would not likely sell anything that would give them a huge step up in performance... unless they were prepared to pay a fair price for that...

    Why would Russia sell then anyways? All they need is Chinese subs in the water, they don't need to be any good so it makes zero sense that they would offer the Chinese anything has China can produce their own submarines.

    Could say the same about fighter aircraft, but they still sell to them.

    India on the other hand would be more likely.

    Maybe Algeria too... and when it comes to money... Saudi Arabia or even Turkey perhaps... who knows...

    So yeah if they buy Russian subs it will be to copy them but Russia won't sell just one. It will be many or nothing and it would be an export version at the level of first Akula subs but with kalibr missiles so worth the money.

    Yes, it wont be the best the Russians can manage, but it will still be a huge step up for China and might make a serious difference to the coalition of the stupid and how they have to act to deal with this Chinese threat they have made up for themselves.

    Honestly if China ever started to behave like the US does now I would actually be worried, but really the problem we actually have is no a resurgent China... it is a dangerous and unstable self appointed world emperor and lynch mob leader US of A... and if Russia and China and India and even the EU getting stronger and being independent will tame the monster that is the US of A then I welcome that.

    The EU has a long way to go to grow up and become a mature independent centre of power and India has made bad choices and ten steps backwards by joining the US against China when they should be joining China and Russia against the US... because the Chinese and Russian methods are slow and non violent, while the US methods are throw allies under the bus and hope it turns out OK for the US this time around... no other worries at all of course about allies or temporary allies... like EU and Ukraine respectively.

    Heck they bought old Russian ships to study them and now they can outproduce the Russian, with China it's a long-term goal.

    But who cares if they out produce Russia in old ships... only in the west is a strong China seen as a threat because it is a threat to western world dominance... something Russia has not been allowed to share so why would they help to protect that unhealthy monopoly?

    While selling monkey versions of Yasen would theoretically be extremely lucrative it will not be happening simply because Russia needs it's entire submarine construction output for itself (on top of all other reasons listed) so it's pointless to argue about it

    That would be the only sensible reason for Russia to not sell them these subs.

    China is getting more and more powerful all the time I doubt they could be stopped except via a brutal and lethal third world war and are they going to remember how the west threw everything they could in their path to stop them even though their goals were to improve free trade between Asia and the EU... something Russia and many other countries cooperated with... I hope they don't forget and forgive their enemies... why should they.... in 10 years time the US will be printing more money than they have trees and it will have no value at all in most places... either through over printing or sanctions where they simply wont allow locals to use the dollar.

    Second hand Akula sales is best India or China can hope for and even that would cost insane amounts of money (Akula rental is 6 billion FFS...)

    And that is the other problem... India likely wont be prepared to pay what it is worth and will complain about it... and why would Russia want to supply India weapons to fight China with... that is an American wet dream right there...

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    Post  Isos Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:44 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    While selling monkey versions of Yasen would theoretically be extremely lucrative it will not be happening simply because Russia needs it's entire submarine construction output for itself (on top of all other reasons listed) so it's pointless to argue about it

    Second hand Akula sales is best India or China can hope for and even that would cost insane amounts of money (Akula rental is 6 billion FFS...)



    When US will include India in the program Akula will cost 0$. High cost of Akula leasing is just russian taking advantage of being the only option for indians to have an SSN.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:50 am

    Hardly, as they have own nuclear subs on hand.
    This is why I dont understand this deal, but that can be applied to lots of Indian choices and decisions Laughing
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    Post  Isos Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:06 am

    ALAMO wrote:Hardly, as they have own nuclear subs on hand.
    This is why I dont understand this deal, but that can be applied to lots of Indian choices and decisions Laughing

    Their own subs suck. They never developed any kind of submarine marine and you think the first nuclear subs they develop would be good ?

    There is a big chance it becomes a nuclear disaster.

    Australia getting SSNs will push for more chinese investement into its own SSN which will push India to get more SSN.

    So there is a chance that either France or Russia sells them.

    And if Russia keep leasing them akulas for 3-4 billions $ for 10 years there is a big chance they dump them for a french solution.

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    Post  Hole Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:23 pm

    Well, the 12(?) french subs for Australia had a price tag of 60 Bill. $. For that money they could have bought many more russian SSK´s.
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    Post  Isos Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:53 pm

    Hole wrote:Well, the 12(?) french subs for Australia had a price tag of 60 Bill. $. For that money they could have bought many more russian SSK´s.

    The contract was about ToT and building them in Australia which means giving them all the submarine industry.

    It was a 50 year contract thanks to which they could have build their own subs.

    Now they will pay the same ammount to get those SSN and for a US base their to maintain them.

    The US plane may end up much more expensive on the long term even if the french one got more expensive than they thought.

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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:52 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Hole wrote:Well, the 12(?) french subs for Australia had a price tag of 60 Bill. $. For that money they could have bought many more russian SSK´s.

    The contract was about ToT and building them in Australia which means giving them all the submarine industry.

    It was a 50 year contract thanks to which they could have build their own subs.

    Now they will pay the same ammount to get those SSN and for a US base their to maintain them.

    The US plane may end up much more expensive on the long term even if the french one got more expensive than they thought.

    Key point is the base.

    Pakistan for instance couldn't maintain their own jets without US assistance. US will be stationed in Australia for this. This is more or less a push to have US on Australian soil to continue to do their biddings and stir trouble. I told some Philippine's at work that allowing the US to stay in the Philippines will cost them more than they had hoped for in the future, even if the US is so called "paying" for rent.
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    Post  Isos Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:14 pm

    Most costly is to make them leave.

    Just ask the japanese who try to remove them from their island since 1945. They have to pay billions for every base US agree to leave.

    They are sticky like parasites.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:48 am

    So this is nothing new, just been a very long time since it's been done.

    Well Australia is not signed up to the NPT and nuclear power agreements are they?

    They also don't have nuclear weapons either... like India does...

    I for one hope Russian subs still have saunas, and also comfortable showers. On US subs you're only allowed to shower for 1 minute and 30 seconds because the desalination system gets put under too much pressure. 1 minute and 30 seconds is not near enough to wash yourself, so no wonder US subs got bed bugs, not to mention americans are filthy unhygienic people to begin.

    That is a bit stupid... you would think they would have a salt water nozzle and a fresh water nozzle... use the salt water nozzle to get yourself wet and wash yourself under the salt water... the soap and shampoo wont lather up very well with it being salt water but then you can use your one and a half minutes of fresh water to rinse off the soap and salt water... it could be a nice ten minute salty shower and a 1.5 minute rinse... hell even make it a 1 minute fresh water rinse and use less fresh water, but have a decent wash.

    For the rest just looking at Australia geographical position, ordering nuclear subs instead of conventional ones make a lot of sense for them.

    SSKs are defensive subs, SSNs are attack subs... this shows a serious shift in policy for Australia... what they are saying is that now they intend to operate further away from Australia offering less protection for Australia and the region but being cannon fodder for the US like they did in Afghanistan with troops deployed there that actually made Australia less safe and created more instability.

    When US will include India in the program Akula will cost 0$. High cost of Akula leasing is just russian taking advantage of being the only option for indians to have an SSN.

    They are paying 8 billion for 36 Rafale fighters and don't think they will be able to do anything they like with them... in every sense they are loaned too.

    And if Russia keep leasing them akulas for 3-4 billions $ for 10 years there is a big chance they dump them for a french solution.

    Very possible, but you have to ask yourself will French designs be cheaper and also will they be better and worth the money.

    I can claim 36 Rafale fighters for India is all about corruption and kick backs but at the end of the day would they put up with that shit if the Rafale was no good?

    I would say the Akulas and even Sierras would cost rather more than 6 billion each to develop so what they can learn from 10 years of use would be well worth rather more than 6 billion dollars to the person getting the use of these subs if what they learn and what they find out allows them to set the bar for their domestic sub design.

    Well, the 12(?) french subs for Australia had a price tag of 60 Bill. $. For that money they could have bought many more russian SSK´s.

    For Australia Russian subs are not an alternative so they can name their price unless the UK can compete and they could only compete with US support... US Support that likely came as part of the UK purchase of perhaps 300 billion dollars or more they will eventually spend on Trident subs...

    Maybe France should think about selling nuclear powered subs to India... with a few extra sales to Indonesia just to return the backstabbing from Australia and the US they thought were allies but obviously are not... perhaps Argentina might be interested in a few extra Barracuda SSNs too... the latter two countries perhaps get a subsidised discount...


    The US plane may end up much more expensive on the long term even if the french one got more expensive than they thought.

    The US maintenance costs will be turned into forward basing for US forces in the region for free... but the prices will go up... remember the F-35 was supposed to be an affordable aircraft when it started... a stealthy F-16... pretty much a checkmate type platform...






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