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    New combat aircraft will be presented at MAKS-2021

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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:40 am

    well, the claimed qualities of the F-35 were commercial propaganda. The reality later put things in their place.
    Yes, at equivalent stage F-35 was going to be an all-singing, all-dancing, super-cruising, super-manoeuvrable, super-low cost, super-low maintenance wunderwaffe too.

    Earlier I was trying to find the date that X-35 & X-32 mockups were made public, couldn't find the date (I think must have been same time as the contracts were made public in '96?) but did find a tidbit: X-35 demonstrator didn't even have a weapons-bay, there was a lot of chubbing up between X-35 & F-35 and that little omission was a big part of it.

    On the other hand this allegedly flight capable airframe has stuff like a weapons-bay already & if its at the stage of doing ground tests the performance claims are presumably based off the achieved weights/structural solutions (or reasonably expected mitigations) rather than the pre-construction estimates so should be more likely to be correct than the latter.


    Regarding the 8G limit: If its a max value its still more than the 7G which F-35 got limited to.
    Has been alluded to earlier that if they've aimed for a 8G limit instead of 9G it should make for more cheaper/quicker engineering/notably lighter structure.
    Alternatively (& opposite implication) it could be a 'while loaded' limit. As I understand most planes are severely limited in what kind of Gs they can pull when loaded up with ordnance, if this is specced to pull 8G loaded that might give it significantly more practical combat agility than other types.


    Interesting that it doesn't have a permanent gun, just option for gunpacks in the central bay.
    It saves a bunch of permanent weight, structure & a whole heap of performance validation stuff (I've lost track on whether or not F-35 can actually shoot its gun, last I'd heard the required work was removed from the development plans).
    I think for a fighter we really have got to an era where guns aren't really needed.

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:46 am

    Scorpius wrote:please also note that it is necessary to take into account the conversion factor of about 2.5 for any dollar prices from Russia. So the real price, estimated at purchasing power parity for the Su-75, will not be $ 30 million, but about 75. I hope now it does not seem to anyone too small a price for a fifth-generation aircraft ))


    Purchasing power parity does not work like this, sorry.
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    Post  George1 Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:49 am

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:54 am

    limb wrote:Since it has a DSI, does that mean that it cant supercruise?

    DSI is less effective for speeds close to 2 M and above, still it should be not synonymous that it can't. But they just said "continuous supersonic speeds", which can mean many things. At minimum, that the engine can work in AB without a relevant time limitation and airframe can handle the speeds. If it seems too trivial, F-35B/C cannot, so that is already a good selling point against them...

    hoom wrote:Regarding the 8G limit: If its a max value its still more than the 7G which F-35 got limited to.

    F-35A is fully 9 g capable, to be fair.

    As to the gun, I can imagine the VKS will not be very willing to fly without a last resort weapon, and to lose some range for a plane with already such long legs would not be a drama. Maybe for some countries this would be more painful, but for Russia with a fleet of long range fighters available I think it would be perfectly acceptable.

    One of the few "complains" that I would have is that they did not include any frontal aero device to trim the plane in supersonic flight, that would be good. But I guess they can add canards like they did in the Su-33/30 without a big difficulty, if this is considered relevant for the operational concept later on. I agree in principle a light fighter does not need to be a great supercruiser, but with the range they got, they have certain potential there. And of course, if the 8 g limitation is due to the lack of pitch authority (still unsure about this one), then a foreplane would be indeed the right thing to do.
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    Post  kvs Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:15 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    Scorpius wrote:please also note that it is necessary to take into account the conversion factor of about 2.5 for any dollar prices from Russia. So the real price, estimated at purchasing power parity for the Su-75, will not be $ 30 million, but about 75. I hope now it does not seem to anyone too small a price for a fifth-generation aircraft ))


    Purchasing power parity does not work like this, sorry.

    PPP is a normalization factor. If 30 million is the nominal conversion rate price. Then the PPP equivalent is 75 million. Just like
    Russia's GDP is not less than that of Portugal in real terms, its nominal exchange prices are not "real". It gives Russia an export
    advantage to have a PPP of 2.5 (at lowest). But an apples to apples comparison requires the low export price to be scaled up
    by the PPP factor.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The fact that it is designed to be stealthy does not mean it can't carry external weapons or stores, and I would think a useful external store for long distance self deployment would be four nice big external fuel tanks to give it a decent ferry range.

    5G planes do have EFTs, but they don't use them for combat normally, added to the fact that they are thicker in general because of the weapon bays and the current availability of more powerful engines, you have both the need and the possibility of carrying more internal fuel

    As to the LTS, I guess the suspension points closer to the root will be wet, while the others are probably not. There is the additional possibility (mentioned explicitly at the presentation) of carrying tanks internally as we speculated for the Su-57. That is already a LOT of fuel.

    This is a light short range point defence system... if you need to fly 1,500km and still be all stealthy then something has gone wrong...

    I don't think this is a point defence fighter anymore... it is quite clearly something more

    Those fuselage side bays would be good for R-77s...

    Still unconfirmed, but I hope they are, in order to have a really autonomous strike package (maybe 1x SRAAM and 1x MRAAM per plane in a strike wing, for instance). They seem rather big for the short range ones, but maybe a cannot or other payload can demand that size and the interesting fact that such bay design has a good clearance to the front... that is not necessary if you just carry rail launched missiles on a trapezoidal suspension
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    Post  kvs Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:21 pm

    The quibbling over 8 and 9 g is meaningless. No airframe is rated for max tolerable g. That would mean that pulling a "rated" 8 g
    would risk catastrophic failure. So the F-35 "9 g" is more than likely a push to the tolerance limit to sell its "superiority". The 8 g
    quote for the Su-75 is a more conservative one. All of these aircraft can handle over 9 g but should not be operated with such loads
    to prevent their early retirement.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:33 pm

    AMCXXL wrote:This has been developed by OAK at its own risk. In principle, VKS is not mixed in this matter, it and it is export oriented....

    Su-30 was export oriented and look at it now

    Also if Sukhoi actually did take the initiative on this then it's just another nail in MiG's coffin and another proof of it's redundancy and obsolescence

    MiG doesn't have the balls to develop crop duster on it's own and you expect them to compete with Sukhoi? Get real, man...



    AMCXXL wrote:Let's wait to see, for now this model presented today does not fly, maybe MiG also brings out a competing 5th generation single-engine. Especially taking into account the need for a STOVL aircraft for the Navy of Russia and other countries...

    MiG did bring out his competing scale models and they all look like a bad joke

    Those idiots have learned nothing, they even still try to peddle their two engine junk while Sukhoi is running laps around them

    And don't even start with STOVL, this Sukhoi jet will be converted to STOVL long before MiG even comes up with a CGI render



    AMCXXL wrote:... should start selling MiG-35...

    They already started and nobody is buying, it's a lemon, time to face reality



    AMCXXL wrote:I doubt very much that the VKS is interested in single engine fighters after so many decades, they are not effective in the Eurasian scenario.
    They will continue to buy Su-57 beyond the 76 already ordered...

    They weren't interested in Su-30SM until they were

    And I think they would love nothing more than to move all two engine fighters from Central Military District to the West and replace them with affordable and capable single engine planes

    Also if they really want to have those idiotic aircraft carriers they keep fantasizing about they will need this airplane


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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:44 pm

    I wish I was at that airshow and pretended to be some foreign official that is interested in buying their aircrafts for said country for asking questions like where are the RWRs placed or info on bands they cover, does it have a tail EW system like the Himalayas or what name is it atleast, modules used? is the radar nose size somewhere between the N036 or fga-35 is it using existing or a we have a planned new radar model for it before fly testing it? are the side bays for SRAAM or MRAAMs excluding whats already in the main weapons bay? Hows the MAWS coverage? Will modernization plans from the Su-57 in 2022-2024 get thrown onto this aircraft?

    I mean if they are to get people interested in buying it the customer has to know what he is paying for? If that is not going to be disclosed to them or public I don't expect much sales or even contracts.

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:50 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:MiG-29 35 is not light fighter, it's heavy fighter wannabe

    In a paring with Su-35 it is the light aircraft... the cheaper to operate model that allows you to operate them in useful numbers....

    And in real life it's falled attempt at heavy fighter especially compared to Su-35 and only marginally less expensive to operate at a huge performance disadvantage

    To say nothing of comparing operating costs to actual light fighters



    GarryB wrote:Russian military gets what they need and want, they are not the USAF....

    Oh yeah, just like they "need" BMPT?

    They need it so hard that the Army has been fighting tooth and nail to avoid using it for nearly 30 years while UVZ has been pulling every string it has just to shove couple of dozen down their throats

    Same with Mi-35 but hopefully that dog will soon be put to sleep especially after yesterday




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    Post  medo Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:55 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Su-30 was export oriented and look at it now

    Also if Sukhoi actually did take the initiative on this then it's just another nail in MiG's coffin and another proof of it's redundancy and obsolescence

    MiG doesn't have the balls to develop crop duster on it's own and you expect them to compete with Sukhoi? Get real, man...

    Wrong. Su-30 was Russian air defense oriented as group command post. Money shortage in Russia and F-15E debut in Gulf war push Sukhoi to remade it in multirole fighter bomber for export. RuAF start buying Su-30, when financial situation allow them and first they buy Su-30M2 in 2009 and later Su-30SM in 2012.

    MiG have plans to made multirole MiG-31BM, but didn't went with it and MiG-31BM is still interceptor only.

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    Post  JohninMK Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:55 pm

    thegopnik wrote:I wish I was at that airshow and pretended to be some foreign official that is interested in buying their aircrafts for said country for asking questions like  where are the RWRs placed or info on bands they cover, does it have a tail EW system like the Himalayas or what name is it atleast, modules used? is the radar nose size somewhere between the N036 or fga-35 is it using existing or a we have a planned new radar model for it before fly testing it? are the side bays for SRAAM or MRAAMs excluding whats already in the main weapons bay? Hows the MAWS coverage? Will modernization plans from the Su-57 in 2022-2024 get thrown onto this aircraft?

    I mean if they are to get people interested in buying it the customer has to know what he is paying for? If that is not going to be disclosed to them or public I don't expect much sales or even contracts.
    Regardless of it being a privately funded development much of what you want to know is classified and will probably remain so for years.

    We have no idea who the real prospects are but we can be pretty certain that NDAs are in place protecting any data that is released to authorised receivers. They will release as much data as is needed to get sales but only on a need to know basis.

    Your idea of pretending to be someone would be shut down at the front gate. The need to inform the public is at the bottom of the list apart perhaps from trolling opportunities whilst disinformation is much higher up the list. We can be pretty sure that both have been deployed during the last few days and will continue to be used.
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    Post  dino00 Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:23 pm

    The aircraft is created with the broadest use of supercomputer technologies. This made it possible to develop an optimal aerodynamic design, achieve high performance and conduct a full cycle of virtual tests even before the first prototype was made.

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=2&nid=553545&lang=RU

    General Director of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Yuri told in an interview with Interfax columnist Ekaterina Maltseva Slussar.

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:36 pm


    Official artwork:

    New combat aircraft will be presented at MAKS-2021 - Page 27 E6xJ0k_WEAY3Hbf?format=jpg&name=large

    New combat aircraft will be presented at MAKS-2021 - Page 27 E6xJ0lAWUAA7kFm?format=jpg&name=large


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    Post  Atmosphere Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:04 pm

    I absolutely knew it.
    A KS-U type aperture had to be on top to mirror the one on the belly. So id assume the horizontal coverage to be +/-90 degrees.

    Aside from that, the voilure, stabiliser shape, dorso and bose secrion really paint it as a sub-species of the Su-57. No wonder they made it so Quickly.

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    Post  Broski Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    That's the price given for the VKS, foreign buyers will be paying at least $60 Million.
    This is MAKS, that price is export price... if the VKS wanted this, and I am not suggesting they wont, they will likely be paying 20 million an aircraft which would be amazing because that would put it in LIFT prices... but lots of foreign orders would be needed to pay for it to be that cheap.
    If the export price of Checkmate is $10 Million cheaper than the export MiG-35 (based on the price of MiG-29M's sold to Egypt @$40M each), that'll put a massive dent in the MiG-35's export prospects, even if it takes another 5 years for the Su-75 to be ready.

    GarryB wrote:
    LMFS wrote:In fact it seems they developed with more focus on strike missions than to make a very good fighter...
    They already have the Su-57, no need for redundancy.
    The Su-57 is a fully multirole aircraft, but they wont have thousands of them and they wont be everywhere.
    My point to LMFS was that the Su-75 doesn't need to be a Su-57 as that would be redundant, it'll be fully multirole just like the Su-57 but with half the payload, 2/3rds the range and with less air superiority capability.
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    Post  Hole Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:43 pm

    New combat aircraft will be presented at MAKS-2021 - Page 27 11812210

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    Post  dino00 Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:44 pm

    UAC sets the task to complete tests of the Checkmate fighter in 2027

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11956013
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    Post  Scorpius Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:49 pm

    New combat aircraft will be presented at MAKS-2021 - Page 27 1626886174-369b4b7553633f61621f03d141b3e3d9
    I will slightly dilute the discussion with a memo for fans of the Western approach to the perception of new Russian technology.
    Stages of adoption of Russian equipment:
    1. Does not exist, will be closed.
    2. Layout, imitation, fake.
    3. They will not be adopted.
    4. They will not purchase.
    5. They will buy, but not enough.
    6.They were not used in combat.
    7. You're all lyiiiiiiiiiiiiiing!!!
    Check the box next to the stage where you are currently located.

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:52 pm


    I just realized why I like how it looks, it reminds me of F-8 Crusader AKA my 3rd favorite airplane ever:

    New combat aircraft will be presented at MAKS-2021 - Page 27 Vought_F-8E%28FN%29_Crusader%2C_France_-_Navy_AN1712439

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    Post  mnztr Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:52 pm

    hoom wrote:

    Interesting that it doesn't have a permanent gun, just option for gunpacks in the central bay.
    It saves a bunch of permanent weight, structure & a whole heap of performance validation stuff (I've lost track on whether or not F-35 can actually shoot its gun, last I'd heard the required work was removed from the development plans).
    I think for a fighter we really have got to an era where guns aren't really needed.

    I think this is kinda silly. The GSH-30 used in most Russian planes is incredibly light at 101lbs. Seems crazy to eliminate such a capability for such a tiny weight loss.
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    Post  mnztr Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:55 pm

    WHat are the tail air intakes for? IR masking?
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    Post  mnztr Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:57 pm

    Broski wrote:
    If the export price of Checkmate is $10 Million cheaper than the export MiG-35 (based on the price of MiG-29M's sold to Egypt @$40M each), that'll put a massive dent in the MiG-35's export prospects, even if it takes another 5 years for the Su-75 to be ready.


    $10m does not really make a big diff in fighter deals. If its 30M vs 110m..now THAT is a difference.

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    Post  marcellogo Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:35 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    Broski wrote:
    If the export price of Checkmate is $10 Million cheaper than the export MiG-35 (based on the price of MiG-29M's sold to Egypt @$40M each), that'll put a massive dent in the MiG-35's export prospects, even if it takes another 5 years for the Su-75 to be ready.


    $10m does not really make a big diff in fighter deals. If its 30M vs 110m..now THAT is a difference.

    Final price would be dependent on a lot of factors.
    Or even the way to calculate it, surely the one of Checkmate is a purely "key in hand " one.
    I think that MiG-35 and T-75 could complement well one with the other as one is geared toward A2A and the other to A2G roles respectively.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:50 pm

    mnztr wrote:WHat are the tail air intakes for? IR masking?

    It's for cooling some internal equipment

    Same as on Su-57


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