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    Post  calripson Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:25 am

    Why have the US government and media started pushing a UFO narrative complete with US military eyewitness accounts and film footage? Looks like some kind of DARPA sponsored psych-op but to what ends?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKsLK_Na7iw

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    Post  bitcointrader70 Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:51 am

    Fake alien invasion and enslave humanity?
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:23 pm

    Not happy with too much common sense around the world so want to start a few conspiracy theories of their own to make everyone paranoid...
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    Post  nomadski Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:25 pm

    I remember reading that the US army in Vietnam, used a local legend of scary ape forest creature to keep locals out of hot zone. They did this by dressing someone up in costume I think. The greatest benefit for the military to propogate the myth of UFO, is misdirection. The public and others mistaking military gear for alien spaceships etc. Also misdirection of research and wasting resources by other nations into blind alley. Like anti-gravity drive......

    I remember thinking that Iranians and others tired of their ships around our coasts, should do the same to them by psy ops. Like release harmless red dye into water around ships to indicate a virulent disease....... LOL

    Perhaps we could borrow a few corpses and dress them up in uniform and expel them out of torpedo tube near ship. Then body recovered and rummor circulated that virulent disease on board ships and must return to port....... All yank sailors get RR time at home with family. Desert and go to Alaska to live as mountain men..... The hills are alive with the sound of Music........ Lalala.........

    https://youtu.be/itwl0WCC6A4

    Ooops. Don't worry big foot is Iranian psy-ops to empty Alaska from yank sailor deserters........
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    Post  starman Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:11 pm

    bitcointrader70 wrote:Fake alien invasion and enslave humanity?

    Laughing Way too early for that (actually a real one). See The Alien Grand Design.


    Last edited by starman on Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  starman Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:14 pm

    calripson wrote:Why have the US government and media started pushing a UFO narrative complete with US military eyewitness accounts and film footage? Looks like some kind of DARPA sponsored psych-op but to what ends?

    Essentially this is no different from what's been going on for several decades already--and will continue for several more--slowly inure humanity to the reality of visitors.
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    Post  nomadski Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:56 pm

    The actual transcripts or narrative by Japan airlines indicated clearly navigation lights on two objects and  jet nozzles . A very earthly aircraft event . Perhaps early stealth , where pilots unaware of type of craft , at a time when no clear protocol for flight paths and avoidance was available .

    The initial narrative said nothing about giant UFO ,  to the left of Boeing reported by pilot only . Ground radar confirmed at the time , some object to the left at the time of reporting .And two objects spotted ahead were not reported to have banks of lights at the time of reporting . Looks like the pilot took the blame , provided cover story , at cost of his flying career , to provide story to cover up secret aircraft . A confabulation .

    The problem was that in those days , the air traffic had started to be inquisitive and ask questions on record , instead of shutting up . Will not happen these days . Or will it ?


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_1628_incident
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    Post  nomadski Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:26 pm

    The Mammoth Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters
    Front Cover
    Ronald Story
    Hachette UK, 1 Mar 2012 - Body, Mind & Spirit - 624 pages
    0 Reviews
    Over 400 entries from more than 100 contributors cover everything from the incidents and witnesses involved to the concepts at stake and experts' personal position statements. Entries range from alien abductions, the Fantasy Prone hypothesis and JAL Flight no 1628, to the Lakenheath-Bentwaters Episode, mind control by aliens and Roswell. The contributors include: Isaac Asimov, Jerome Clark, Erich von Daniken, Peter Davenport, Hilary Evans, Timothy Good, Marvin Kottmeyer, Jenny Randles, Carl Sagan, Whitley Streiber and Jacques Vallee. There are over 300 images, eyewitness drawings and photographs.
    More »

    A debunkers bed time read . Cheap on Amazon . Sends me to sleep quickly .

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    Post  starman Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:44 am

    nomadski wrote:
    The contributors include: Isaac Asimov, Jerome Clark, Erich von Daniken, Peter Davenport, Hilary Evans, Timothy Good, Marvin Kottmeyer, Jenny Randles, Carl Sagan, Whitley Streiber and Jacques Vallee.

    Von Daniken isn't credible. Friedman and Randle should've been in it (not that they're entirely trustworthy either).

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    Post  nomadski Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:40 am

    I guess the Author by including all major contributors , was trying to be impartial . In my view overall , he makes a good job by explaining away many cases . He himself is left with no good answers , attributing some of these to trans-dimensional  beings ! Making matters even more difficult and absurd . These and previous visions , if a product of entirely internal process in the human brain ,  collectively or individually , would hardly correspond to a definite object in the external environment . But most these visionary type experiences by more than one person , allign themselves to a point in external space . They are seen at a particular point . I think that , these apparitions are a product of human mind , but some have a physical reality . They are actually seen , rather than imagined . The human mind here acting more like a movie projector than a radio receiver !


    Last edited by nomadski on Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  nomadski Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:06 pm

    https://second.wiki/wiki/pasaporte_a_magonia


    Here the idea is that the recent UFO phenomenon is much older and extends to fairy tale and religious experience and is in fact subtly identical with them . The only difference is the cultural imprint , allowing superficial differences .

    The author recognises two possibilities . That They are entirely an internal or external event to the human mind . Since these events are culturally determined , he rejects this aspect as illusory . Accepting strangely , only the genetic component ! As purposeful activity .  However , I think that if part of the story is illusory and culturally determined , and subjective , then we can not accept the entire narrative as realistic , in an objective manner . The entire narrative , including the genetic component must be assigned as subjective .

    Now this subjective experience could be internally generated or externally induced . We are faced then with an external agent , who for thousands of years has played the Fantom of the Opera , for us , for entirely unknown reasons . Or these experiences are a product of the human mind .

    I think that as organisms on this planet , we face threats from the area we normally live in . The land we stand on , and the air and sky we move through . It is natural that we may develop a psychology that sees or imagines threats , that are immediately from or could be from this environment . Of course the epoch that we live in , determines the shape and form and colour of threats , like the Octapus . They are culturally and environmentally determined . Therefore deceptive human psychology . Not deceptive alien life forms ? But then again ...


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eS-USrwuUfA


    Other creatures are also hyper-sensitive to threats in the environment ! Even if environment is benign .

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    Post  kvs Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:05 pm

    Alien abduction stories are clearly analogues of the medieval stories about rapes by Succubus demons. Instead of sex we have anal
    probes and instead of demons we have "greys". The potential existence of extra-terrestrial civilizations has no bearing on the fact
    that none of them are visiting this planet today. All of the claims about evidence are BS. This includes the most recent one with
    some hovering object above the ocean of which there is some video.

    Even the whole flying saucer construct is BS. Aliens with advanced new physics propulsion technology would have no reason to
    shape their craft like saucers. The saucer concept arose before WWII and was actively studied by the Nazis during WWII.
    This has given it a mystique and it is possible that the Americans copied the German prototypes and plans and sightings of these
    hacks started the UFO hysteria.

    The UFO hysteria originated in the 1950s when Hollywood was churning out sci-fi and monster shlock. It also coincides with post
    WWII tech development (e.g. saucer craft) and US attempts to develop psychological warfare tools. There is a high chance that
    UFOs were a psyop experiment. Fly some saucers where yokels can see them and then "cover it up". Do not for a moment assume
    that regimes like those in the USA would never do mass experiments that are either criminal or borderline criminal. Hollywood is
    part of the US regime (showing that nominal state ownership means jack sh*t) and the 1950s shlock was clearly designed to drive
    cold war hysteria. The USSR still had some positive weight on account of the war against Hitler so this had to be deleted from
    the minds of the rabble. The shlock was a type of mass experiment itself.

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    Post  nomadski Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:21 pm

    https://sputniknews.com/20211211/man-in-clown-mask-breaks-into-las-vegas-airport-for-a-jet-to-area-51-to-see-aliens---report-1091431652.html


    According to case files in Jacques vallee's book : passport to magonia , the case files from 1866 to 1966 , the saucer shaped craft were reported in 1917 ! That was the start of it ! At the same time , the first images of saucer shaped alien craft appeared in the comic books in the USA . Previous to this time period , the reported cases of sightings were of a shape similar to the Air ships of the time .

    The case files in this book all relate to sightings of flying craft . But I think , as stated previously in the same book , that if these sightings are but one form of mass psychosis , similar to fairy or religious apparitions , that the case files , should have included these too . In this way statistical methods , could prove the relationship between cultural and historical norms and type of hallucinations imprinted on these sightings .

    Not that , even if this was proved to be true , that it makes life much easier for the scientist or researcher ! Since they have to still explain the mechanism for simultaneous identical mass hallucinations , sometimes resulting in physical trace evidence ! I read in this book , that Betty and Barney Hill sightings had a corresponding Radar trace , by Air force !!

    https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2020/04/23/carl-jung-on-ufos-anthology/#.YbW04mqnw1I

    Here , some such as Carl Jung tend towards a psychological explanation . The collective unconscious . However it still does not answer physical trade evidence . In this case then , I tend to think about this problem , in a way that reflects the idea in the film : " Forbidden planet " . Where a creature from the human mind , the " ID " is materialized into existence , by an ancient machine ! Is the human mind capable of creating a physical reality ?


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUl8TOIa6lY

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f2BYyeS-fIU

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    Post  starman Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:20 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    According to case files in Jacques vallee's book : passport to magonia , the case files from 1866 to 1966 , the saucer shaped craft were reported in 1917 ! That was the start of it !

    Indeed anomalous sightings long predated 1947 but they weren't much of a "start" compared to the latter year.


    Since they have to still explain the mechanism for simultaneous identical mass hallucinations , sometimes resulting in physical trace evidence ! I read in this book , that Betty and Barney Hill sightings had a corresponding Radar trace , by Air force !!

    In fact there have been a multitude of physical trace cases besides radar sightings. There is no purely psychological explanation.

    However it still does not answer physical trade evidence . In this case then , I tend to think about this problem , in a way that reflects the idea in the film : " Forbidden planet " . Where a creature from the human mind , the " ID " is materialized into existence , by an ancient machine ! Is the human mind capable of creating a physical reality ?

    Smile A good example of "grasping at straws" by those who don't like the idea of ET here. Not very parsimonious….
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    Post  nomadski Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:12 pm

    @ starman



    "....A good example of "grasping at straws" by those who don't like the idea of ET here. Not very parsimonious…. ".  No ,  I think that case studies involving  multiple observers and even trace evidence ,  corresponds to ideas by Wheeler of PAP , or Quantum physical effects and also corresponds to " external effects " as outlined by  Carl Jung . Both explain how these visionary experiences come about that retain some physical reality !


    Wheeler: It from bit. Otherwise put, every it — every particle, every field of force, even the space-time continuum itself — derives its function, its meaning, its very existence entirely — even if in some contexts indirectly — from the apparatus-elicited answers to yes-or-no questions, binary choices, bits. It from bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom — a very deep bottom, in most instances — an immaterial source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and that this is a participatory universe.[83]


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Archibald_Wheeler


    And external effects !

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xVFNznKxJNI

    I think NOT parsimonious ! Quite the opposite . ET coming here in an intergalactic metal submarine is ! If quantum effects exist and alter the path or nature of single photons in a Lab , then why not influence the path or pattern of Atomic or sub-Atomic particles in the human brain at shorter distances ? Giving rise to collective or participatory mass hallucinations , for those in close proximity ? Also why this effect should not extend to nearby external objects of photons or electrons in the atmosphere  , creating actual transient physical objects , composed of light elements ? Remember most ufo , have associated light / optical apparitions . Spooky action at a " short " distance ?
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    Post  starman Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:25 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    No ,  I think that case studies involving  multiple observers and even trace evidence ,  

    There have been cases in which physical effects were caused by an object weighing several tons at least--and associated with the sighting of a strange flying machine…And it's parsimonious to say the human mind caused that?


    ET coming here in an intergalactic metal submarine is !

    Even at our beginner level, we can send astronauts out in metal craft.


    If quantum effects exist and alter the path or nature of single photons in a Lab , then why not influence the path or pattern of Atomic or sub-Atomic particles in the human brain at shorter distances ? Giving rise to collective or participatory mass hallucinations , for those in close proximity ? Also why this effect should not extend to nearby external objects of photons or electrons in the atmosphere  , creating actual transient physical objects , composed of light elements ? Remember most ufo , have associated light / optical apparitions . Spooky action at a " short " distance ?

    Many UFOs have been tracked on radar. I don't imagine many hallucinations have been. Smile
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    Post  nomadski Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:40 pm

    "......Many UFOs have been tracked on radar. I don't imagine many hallucinations have been......"  There have been confirmed cases of EM radiation causing hallucinations in people . So a causal link exists . However there is the principal of reverse causality ( quantum retrocausality ) Hallucinatory experiences causing EM emissions !


    https://emfguardtips.com/do-high-emfs-cause-hallucinations/


    "......There have been cases in which physical effects were caused by an object weighing several tons at least--and associated with the sighting of a strange flying machine…And it's parsimonious to say the human mind caused that?......"  I find it just as amazing that the human mind can lift ( quantum effect ) or alter path of single photons , merely by looking at it ! So the difference is one of degree , and not the observed effect !
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    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:20 am

    The fact that radar tracks correspond to observations could simply be that the object was a meteorite, or ducks or something man made, it is certainly not evidence of Spacemen.
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    Post  nomadski Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:56 pm

    Yes , certainly true . And on this topic of " ufo narrative " , I mostly entertain the idea that it is a false narrative , as opposed to the " ufo and extra-terrestrial " topic , where I mostly entertain the idea of a true narrative . In this way , we can more clearly see the distinctions and make a balanced judgement .

    So yes , the sightings of 95% of them , according to believers and sceptics alike , are false reports . And only 5% remain unexplained . Here then , I am assuming that there are true  physical traces together with multiple witnesses who are , truly reliable .

    But what to make of it all , if we are dealing with such a phenomenon ? How to explain it ? To understand it , we must take away from it , all that we have doubt about , even those evidences containing a little doubt . Leaving only those statements , that we are sure about , that constitute the facts .

    Then these facts form our data . And we then pick one or more hypothesis , to see which ones agree best with our data . In this case then , there are two ideas . First is the ET idea and the second is the psychological explanation .

    The ET idea of actual visitations , does not seem plausible in the light of our current understanding of the laws of physics , disallowing speed of light or faster travel . Although our understanding changes over time , and Newtonian physics was replaced by relativity , and this indicates that this too will be replaced at some time . Therefore we can only be partially sure if this law of relativity . Perhaps we should discard it , when it comes to ET discussions , or say that we are only 50% sure of it !

    The ET idea of it being a visionary experience similar to fairy or folk tales of demons or religious visions and hallucinations , seem more plausible in the light of the psychological explanations and within cultural and historical context . And especially in the light of quantum effects , of which we are certain . Since we are fairly sure of these . And scientists now say that quantum theory supercedes relativity . Spooky action at a distance etc .

    Therefore the hypothesis that explains most of the data , is the psychological / quantum one as opposed to the ET physical visitation one ! Since the ET hypothesis can not explain the data on fairy tale and religious cases that are essentially identical with ET cases , with superficial cultural interpretation and stamp on the story !

    I also read that Carl Jung had attempted to reconcile psychoanalysis with quantum theory to explain physical effects cases ! As synchronicity .


    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02456-5

    ".....Jung tells the following story as an example of a synchronistic event in his book Synchronicity:

    By way of example, I shall mention an incident from my own observation. A young woman I was treating had, at a critical moment, a dream in which she was given a golden scarab. While she was telling me this dream I sat with my back to the closed window. Suddenly I heard a noise behind me, like a gentle tapping. I turned round and saw a flying insect knocking against the window pane from outside. I opened the window and caught the creature in the air as it flew in. It was the nearest analogy to a golden scarab that one finds in our latitudes, a scarabaeid beetle, the common rose-chafer (Cetonia aurata), which contrary to its usual habits had evidently felt an urge to get into a dark room at this particular moment.

    It was an extraordinarily difficult case to treat, and up to the time of the dream little or no progress had been made. I should explain that the main reason for this was my patient’s animus, which was steeped in Cartesian philosophy and clung so rigidly to its own idea of reality that the efforts of three doctors—I was the third—had not been able to weaken it. Evidently something quite irrational was needed which was beyond my powers to produce. The dream alone was enough to disturb ever so slightly the rationalistic attitude of my patient. But when the "scarab" came flying in through the window in actual fact, her natural being could burst through the armor of her animus possession and the process of transformation could at last begin to move.[52]...... "



    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity

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    Post  starman Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:The fact that radar tracks correspond to observations could simply be that the object was a meteorite, or ducks or something man made, it is certainly not evidence of Spacemen.

    Unless the flight characteristics are completely unlike conventional craft let alone birds. "Fast walkers" are also observed--objects that descend into the atmosphere from space and depart up again.
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    Post  starman Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:56 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    The ET idea of actual visitations , does not seem plausible in the light of our current understanding of the laws of physics

    Yep, our current understanding...
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    Post  starman Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:01 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    Hallucinatory experiences causing EM emissions !

    Cite an actual verified example of a hallucination causing a radar sighting.

    "......There have been cases in which physical effects were caused by an object weighing several tons at least--and associated with the sighting of a strange flying machine…And it's parsimonious to say the human mind caused that?......"  I find it just as amazing that the human mind can lift ( quantum effect ) or alter path of single photons , merely by looking at it ! So the difference is one of degree , and not the observed effect !

    What evidence that the human mind can increase the degree to the point where it can crush railroad tracks like an object weighing several tons--not that any explanation is needed other than the actual, observed object….
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    Post  nomadski Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:32 pm

    "......Yes, and we are exploiting the electromagnetic fields emitted by the brain since more than 100 years in neuroscience research. Electroencephalography, Magnetoencephalography, local field potential recordings are some of the techniques that register the electromagnetic activity of the brain. Many (I´d say even “most”) advancements in brain research come from these techniques......"

    now regarding Radar example , these solutions may exist :

    ( 1 )  The brain emits a signal that consolidates into an observable object that Radar then picks up . Coincides with cases without Radar . My favourite !

    ( 2 )  The Aircraft or other Radar , causes a hallucinatory experience . Hallucinations repeatedly caused by EM in labs .

    ( 3 )  The brain emissions interfere with plane electronics . Observer phenomenon in quantum theory .


    ".....What evidence that the human mind can increase the degree to the point where it can crush railroad tracks like an object weighing several tons--not that any explanation is needed other than the actual, observed object…."

    I was hoping we could let this one go ! Not because it is hard to explain , unlike fairy rings and crop circles , but because  it is rarely seen in the Phenomenon , so as to constitute a necessary part of it . The constant features of phenomenon or necessary parts of it , relate to lights or shapes moving rapidly in the field of view normally by one observer . But if truly part of phenomenon , then yes I agree , it is difficult to explain purely in psychological or Quantum way !

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=460vfd7mIgI

    Here signals from brain , interacting with computers !

    For a psychological explanation I recommend reading the book by C G Jung :  Flying saucers a modern myth of things seen in the sky .

    The role of radiation causing visual hallucinations , could explain the cases of personnel in Nuclear weapon silos or Astronauts on the moon or orbit , experiencing optical hallucinations ?


    https://www.spaceweatherlive.com/en/solar-activity/solar-cycle/historical-solar-cycles.html

    And miracle of Fatima in 1917 . Coincides exactly with a peak of solar activity !

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

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    Post  starman Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:33 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    ( 1 )  The brain emits a signal that consolidates into an observable object that Radar then picks up

    And that's the most parsimonious solution no doubt... Very Happy


    The constant features of phenomenon or necessary parts of it , relate to lights or shapes moving rapidly in the field of view normally by one observer . But if truly part of phenomenon , then yes I agree , it is difficult to explain purely in psychological or Quantum way !

    Sure….as for hallucinating about moving lights, how surprising the UFO phenomenon tended to be post WWII, given the putative psychological explanation....
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    Post  nomadski Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:01 pm

    ".....And that's the most parsimonious solution no doubt..." Solutions do not have to be simple to be true ! Not everything can be explained by a simple formulae . Some problems have no solutions ! Some have complex solutions . But within the bounds of present science and evidence , the psychological explanation together with modern physics theories , provide a much better explanation , that covers the entire phenomenon ! And UFO lore started in 1917 not 1947 ! By a comic book ! Previous to this date , the cases involved Air ship type visions of cigar shaped objects . Even further back the visions were of Angels or Demons ! Or fairies ! And most recently the triangular objects follow the shape of modern Aircraft ! Now when did triangular objects enter folklore of UFO ? After the star wars films ? Or after F117 was revealed ? Interesting to find out ?



    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Skygack,_from_Mars

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