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    Project 885: Yasen class #2

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    Singular_trafo

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    Post  Singular_trafo Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:28 am

    Yassen at least two times more expensive than Virginia.

    Twice as many fighter jet could be bought from a yassen price than from a Virginia cost.

    It means Russia can make twice as many sun if they choose the Virginia design.
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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:35 am

    No Yasen M is cheaper than Virginia SSN. Yasen M costs about $ 800 million and Virginia about $ 2.5 billion.

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    Singular_trafo

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    Post  Singular_trafo Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:02 pm

    Arrow wrote:No Yasen M is cheaper than Virginia SSN. Yasen M costs about $ 800 million and Virginia about $ 2.5 billion.

    So, you want to say:
    1. VIRGINA three times more capable than YASEN
    OR
    2. Russiacan make one Virginia for the resources of one Yassen
    OR
    3. The USAcan make three Yasen class from the money required for one Virginia?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:15 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    Arrow wrote:No Yasen M is cheaper than Virginia SSN. Yasen M costs about $ 800 million and Virginia about $ 2.5 billion.

    So, you want to say:
    1. VIRGINA three times more capable than YASEN
    OR
    2. Russiacan make one Virginia for the resources of one Yassen
    OR
    3. The USAcan make three Yasen class from the money required for one Virginia?

    Just shut up. You talk bullshit.

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    Lurk83

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    Post  Lurk83 Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:24 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    Arrow wrote:No Yasen M is cheaper than Virginia SSN. Yasen M costs about $ 800 million and Virginia about $ 2.5 billion.

    So, you want to say:
    1. VIRGINA three times more capable than YASEN
    OR
    2. Russiacan make one Virginia for the resources of one Yassen
    OR
    3. The USAcan make three Yasen class from the money required for one Virginia?

    Wtf did I just read?
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:41 pm

    Lurk83 wrote:Wtf did I just read?

    Someone has been hitting the crack pipe too much methinks...

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    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:07 pm

    Ok, I repeat it again :

    The Yassen is three times more expensive than the Virginia class.

    Using the current exchange rate doesn't tell anything about the ships or any other parameter.

    The Russian GDP is 1500 billion USD the USA is about 20 000 billion, means USA can affor 10 000 Virginias, Russia can afford 1 875 Yasen.

    If we compare the price of the ships to the number of fighter jets that can be purchased from the money then the Yassen cost twice as more than the Virginia.

    Means the Russian industrial capacity is not far away per capita from the USA one, it is somewhere between 100-70%.

    And it means that the Yasen is at least two, possible three times more compicated/advanced than the Virginia.
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    Post  Isos Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:19 pm

    You should stop drugs.

    And why do you use 2 accounts ?
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:47 pm

    Isos wrote:You should stop drugs.

    And why do you use 2 accounts ?

    Wow, I haven't recognised : O


    I forgot the password of first account, but looks like it stayed in my tab . I wrote the other from there.


    Anyway, the point is : one dollar was 25 ruble in 2008, now it is 78.

    So, one Yasen was 2.4 billion in 2008, but now only 0.8 billion.

    My point is, the real value of it coudl be in the range of 4-6 billion if the USA MIC has to manufacture it (ok, maybe 4-12 billion ), without development cost.
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    Post  Isos Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:04 pm

    Russia doesn't use dollars in its MiC industry for domestic market. Your conversion is pointless.
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    Post  lancelot Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:01 am

    Using GDP in USD to compare military spending is nonsense in the first place. Russia doesn't buy weapons in USD.
    Also different countries calculate GDP differently. The US adds so much crap into its GDP numbers they get inflated beyond other countries.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:21 am

    Isos wrote:Russia doesn't use dollars in its MiC industry for domestic market. Your conversion is pointless.

    I agree with the first part, saying that "the Yasen cost third as much than the Virginia" completly and absolutly pointless.

    But my calculation could answer example if the USA decide to make Yasen equivalent in Newport News then the yearly two submarine would be best one sub per year, possible two sub in three years time.

    Or if Russia stop to make Yasen submarines then they can use the resources to make one Nimitz class carrier instead of two (2.5) SSN.


    By this way it is possible to compare the industrial capability of different countries.

    Example one Virginia = one Burke = 0.20 Nimitz =0.4 Yasen = 20 Su-34 .
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:18 am

    Why all this arguing about price?. If you wanna use price as the factor for how good a sub is then by that standard Virginia is superior, but I don't know how each submarine compare so I ain't going to talk out my ass.

    Any clown who says one is better than the other is talking out their ass, its simple no one on this forum has access to classified information. I have no doubt each sub is better and worse than the others in specific ways.

    Sure Yasen is cheaper than a Virginia but that's really due to the amount of spending available to each country.

    Russia has a much smaller military budget, so the companies cannot afford to make a Yasen cost 2B the Russians would never buy them at that price.

    Setting a price is always determined by the scale of the budget you expect a client to have available. If the Russian budget was the size of the US, they would be charging an ass-ton more for a Yasen.

    Long story short the US can afford 2B per submarine, Russia cannot and so the shipyards have to price accordingly.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:52 am

    Typhoons are finished (and were expensive as well) and Deltas have been ridden hard and put away wet

    It sounds like they will likely keep a Typhoon for weapons testing and also testing new equipment and systems for submarines.

    It makes sense because it means a new operational sub wont need to be taken from service to do it...

    The Delta IVs are relatively new and are still capable boats even now... and Liner is a rather good missile too.

    Personally I am not sure an Arsenal sub or ship makes sense for the Russian Navy, honestly I don't think they will go on the same murder pillage and rape romps like the US likes to do, and I think a container ship could do the job much more efficiently... and when not being used as an arsenal ship it can support operations with logistics and cargo transport roles.

    Yassen at least two times more expensive than Virginia.

    Bullshit.

    Twice as many fighter jet could be bought from a yassen price than from a Virginia cost.

    Fighter jet funding does not come from the same budget, and even if it did Russia could not make a Virginia class sub and even if they tried it would probably cost even more updating the design and fixing all its problems.

    It means Russia can make twice as many sun if they choose the Virginia design.

    Virginia class subs are not an option for Russia and they wouldn't meet their standards if they were.

    So, you want to say:
    1. VIRGINA three times more capable than YASEN
    OR

    No. Virginia is a dog.

    2. Russiacan make one Virginia for the resources of one Yassen

    Russia could make about three Yasens for the price the US spends on one Virginia sub.

    3. The USAcan make three Yasen class from the money required for one Virginia?

    No. The US would make a Yasen class sub for about 5 billion dollars.... if they could make it at all.

    Ok, I repeat it again :

    The Yassen is three times more expensive than the Virginia class.

    Repeating it does not change the fact that the Virginia class subs cost three times more than the Yasen class subs.

    Using the current exchange rate doesn't tell anything about the ships or any other parameter.

    Both subs are quoted in US dollars so exchange rate does not come in to it.

    The Russian GDP is 1500 billion USD the USA is about 20 000 billion, means USA can affor 10 000 Virginias, Russia can afford 1 875 Yasen.

    The states of the economies are not relevant... the fact that the US spends too much money and gets mediocre products for those high prices is a fundamental fail for the US. Tell the Americans killed on substandard roads and bridges and dams every year that America can afford to buy Virginia class SSNs... I am sure their families will be impressed that all that money is going to those companies owned by the richest 1% in America.

    They need the money more than the average American taxpayer obviously.

    The 1% made billions in the lockdown, yet paid their workers minimum wage...

    If we compare the price of the ships to the number of fighter jets that can be purchased from the money then the Yassen cost twice as more than the Virginia.

    O.8 billion for Yasen would buy 40 Su-57s at 40 million a plane.. . 2.5 billion for the Virginia would buy 25 F-35s at 100 million dollars each... so you are wrong again.

    Means the Russian industrial capacity is not far away per capita from the USA one, it is somewhere between 100-70%.

    It means the 1% in the US leads the politicians and the guys in the Pentagon around by their dicks and command them like the US commands the EU or UK...

    And it means that the Yasen is at least two, possible three times more compicated/advanced than the Virginia.

    Probably 10 times more capable because it is not going to destroy the Russian economy like the American "defence" budget is going to...

    Russia shows fiscal responsibility and sensibly spends on its actual defence rather unlike the US who borrows and spends and borrows and spends and prints money and regime changes and murders anyone who gets in their way.

    My point is, the real value of it coudl be in the range of 4-6 billion if the USA MIC has to manufacture it (ok, maybe 4-12 billion ), without development cost.

    You have it the wrong way around. When the US dollar tanks and becomes worthless and children are making kites out of 1,000 dollar bills because the paper it is made from is worth more than the value of currency it pretends to be worth, then the Virginia class subs will be 20 billion which is what the American taxpayer is actually paying for them.

    If the Yasen was 6 billion a boat they couldn't afford any... and they clearly can without going in to debt... it is the Americans that are 25 trillion in debt right now... you do the math.

    It is America that is spending beyond its means, not Russia... and there will be a day of reckoning...

    The US adds so much crap into its GDP numbers they get inflated beyond other countries.

    The vast majority of the US economy is bailouts for banks and economic commerce that shifts shit around fast enough so everyone can pretend their plate is full when they actually have one meal for ten people.

    Sure Yasen is cheaper than a Virginia but that's really due to the amount of spending available to each country.

    Corruption.

    If the Russian budget was the size of the US, they would be charging an ass-ton more for a Yasen.

    Of course... all the US needs to do is revise its defence budget to 65 billion a year and everything will suddenly get cheaper... right.

    Long story short the US can afford 2B per submarine, Russia cannot and so the shipyards have to price accordingly.

    Long story short whenever we talk about the US taxpayer getting robbed and gun point by Americas MIC the answer is always that they can afford it.

    America is broken but it is also the Emperor with new clothes and he is prancing around in the nude asking if it makes his ass look big... it was expensive but he can afford it... till winter comes and bits start dropping off because it has excellent air conditioning built in to the design. Rolling Eyes
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:18 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Why all this arguing about price?. If you wanna use price as the factor for how good a sub is then by that standard Virginia is superior, but I don't know how each submarine compare so I ain't going to talk out my ass.

    Any clown who says one is better than the other is talking out their ass, its simple no one on this forum has access to classified information. I have no doubt each sub is better and worse than the others in specific ways.

    Sure Yasen is cheaper than a Virginia but that's really due to the amount of spending available to each country.

    Russia has a much smaller military budget, so the companies cannot afford to make a Yasen cost 2B the Russians would never buy them at that price.

    Setting a price is always determined by the scale of the budget you expect a client to have available. If the Russian budget was the size of the US, they would be charging an ass-ton more for a Yasen.

    Long story short the US can afford 2B per submarine, Russia cannot and so the shipyards have to price accordingly.


    So, you say that as well because the ruble usd exchange rate collapsed ,and the Yasen cost went doown from the 2008 exchange rate 2.4 billion USD to 0.8 billion USD the capability of the Virignia imporved threefold thanks to exhange rate movement ?




    Ship hull need metal, that needs furnances, operators, engineers,, funrances needs the same, and there is the need of cutters, shapers, fitters, welders.

    REgardeles of the currency that you use to pay the workers, the spoken language and so on the number would be the same.

    Means the Yasen need 2-3 times more working hours acros the whole supply chain compared to the Virignia, due to bigger size, more powerul weapons, sonars, propulsion,hihgher automation level and due the its capability to dive deeper and so on.

    The USA can't afford to make submarines like the Yasen, it is too expensive,and would leave all carrier strike group without sub escort.

    THE COST OF THE MILITARY EQUIPMENT COULD BE USED ONLY TO COMPARE THE KIT COST AND CAPABILITY PRODUCED BY THE SAME COUNTRY.

    To compare them to each other same tweaking and coordinate system transformation required.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:33 pm

    No, they wouldn't Russian workers are paid much less than their American counterparts in this field for example. Countries have their own ways to price things.

    There is no set standard for how much it costs to build a ship, it will always vary from country from to country

    We could make a submarine-like a Yasen and we have.

    My point is very simple, the shipyards cannot afford to ask 2B per Yasen the Russians would refuse to buy them.

    If you open a business and a shipyard is a business, you need to look take into account how much money you can expect a customer to pay per unit.

    This is basic economics.


    Russian military budget is only so big, and a small part of that goes to the navy. So if you can expect X amount of funds, you need to work along that pricing line.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:29 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:No, they wouldn't Russian workers are paid much less than their American counterparts in this field for example. Countries have their own ways to price things.

    There is no set standard for how much it costs to build a ship, it will always vary from country from to country

    We could make a submarine-like a Yasen and we have.

    Who is the "we" ?

    If you talk about the USA then no, the answer is the USA NAVY can't afford a Yassen class ship. There is no money for it.

    The Seawolf was the closest equivalent (without hypersonic capable vertical launch tubes) , and they had to scrap the project  after three unit due to the extremly high cost.


    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    My point is very simple, the shipyards cannot afford to ask 2B per Yasen the Russians would refuse to buy them.

    If you open a business and a shipyard is a business, you need to look take into account how much money you can expect a customer to pay per unit.

    This is basic economics.


    Russian military budget is only so big, and a small part of that goes to the navy. So if you can expect X amount of funds, you need to work along that pricing line.

    The Sevmash ask more close to three times more to make the Yassen that it would ask if the Russian MOD ask for a Virignia class equivalent design.

    As simple as that.

    The USA would have hard time to make one Yassen eqivalent from the money allocated for two Vriginia class ship.

    Just a reminder again about the basic differences between the two ship.

    And basic economics saying that the mass of the empty ship/airplane/missile closely corelate with the cost of the unit.

    Means a 0.5 tons tomahawk missile will cost the same per kg like a 13 tons F-15 jet or a 28 tons 737.


    It means the smaller half as big ship cost half as much as the bigger one, and the bigger one is more capable than the smaller one (due to the engine-size relations of ships).
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:30 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:N

    We could make a submarine-like a Yasen and we have.


    Sorry, I just realised that you attach to the topic emotionally .

    Sorry for the rude awakening, but because you feels like it is right it doesn't change the reality : P
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:50 pm

    Are you high?, Trying to suggest the US can't afford to make a submarine with VLS?. With have made Submarines with VLS systems. The Virginias have VLS...for fucks sake lol you off meds or something?

    Um, Seawolf production stopped when the USSR fell apart, That was the main reason why the class stopped not because of unit cost.

    Learn basic history before you try and talk down to others it makes you look like an ignorant moron.

    or are you trying to say the US can't make a submarine for the price the shipyards charge Russia for Yasen?. If so I explained this already.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:04 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Are you high?, Trying to suggest the US can't afford to make a submarine with VLS?. With have made Submarines with VLS systems. The Virginias have VLS...for fucks sake lol you off meds or something?

    Um, Seawolf production stopped when the USSR fell apart, That was the main reason why the class stopped not because of unit cost.

    Try to read and understand that I wrote.

    The Virignia has small length/diamater VLS, incapable to support air breathing supersonic weapons.

    Simply the ship is too small for that.

    And check the Seawolf cost - it was more than twice of the Virginias.
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Learn basic history before you try and talk down to others it makes you look like an ignorant moron.

    or are you trying to say the US can't make a submarine for the price the shipyards charge Russia for Yasen?. If so I explained this already.

    Calling the other party using dirty names makes you right in the pub, after several beer only. : )

    The USA has to spend 4-6 billion USD to get a Yassen equivalent from the Newport News.

    What is so difficult to understand in this ?

    It is not hard math.


    Say, if the USA navy buy a twice heavy crusier than the Burke then the price of that ship will be twice as high as the burke.


    However the Yasen has way higher automation, and more sophisticated equipment, so the final price will be even higher than the per tons value : )


    You can use the next ratios :
    Zumwalt - 15900 t for 4.24 billion
    Burke - 9300 t for 1.92 billion

    See the tendency ? The Zumwalt sporting more complicated equipment, so it has even higher price than the mass ratio.
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    Post  AlexDineley Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:16 pm

    What Yasen needs are numbers. Currently US has 19 Virginia and 3 Seawolf. Currently there is only 1 Yasen.
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    Post  owais.usmani Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:25 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote: If the Russian budget was the size of the US, they would be charging an ass-ton more for a Yasen.

    By this logic, Russian military can never get more equipment than what they are getting currently, so for example if the Russian military budget was ten trillion US dollars, they would still be at the same level since the industry would be charging 1 billion US dollars for every Armata tank for example.

    I see the point which you are trying to make but that statement just doesn't makes sense.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:50 pm

    Ahuh I didn't know you can see into the future Singular to say what the sub can and cannot use, man, can you send me the lotto numbers? for the next few months. Thanks.

    Joking aside you're talking out your ass, lets be real you don't know and will never know what weapons the submarine will have through its lifespan.

    Your some guy on the web with no experience in submarines or weapon production or anything else in these matters and you're going to sit there and try and tell me? what weapons the sub may or may not be able to use.

    Lol it's hilarious you expect me to take that seriously.

    You, armchair experts, will always amuse me.


    Has for cost that is a far more complex issue than you will ever realize, the Zums were canceled because per unit they were too expensive that much is true.

    Yes, things cost more in the US congrats! do you want a cookie for figuring this out?.

    In the end it means nothing tho, we can produce those billions of dollars ships.

    So this stupid point your trying to argue amounts to nothing.



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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:21 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Ahuh I didn't know you can see into the future Singular to say what the sub can and cannot use, man, can you send me the lotto numbers? for the next few months. Thanks.

    Joking aside you're talking out your ass, lets be real you don't know and will never know what weapons the submarine will have through its lifespan.

    Your some guy on the web with no experience in submarines or weapon production or anything else in these matters and you're going to sit there and try and tell me? what weapons the sub may or may not be able to use.

    Lol it's hilarious you expect me to take that seriously.

    You, armchair experts, will always amuse me.

    Check the dimensions of the subs and VLS .

    The USA VLS on the Virginia (and a matter of fact, on the Burke) too small ,can't accomodate sueprsonic air breathing missiles.

    Compare the shape of the Tomahawk with something supersonic air breathing, like moskit/granit.

    It will be obivous why the Virginia is inferrior, and why the Russian MOD choose the way more expensive Yassen design.
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    Has for cost that is a far more complex issue than you will ever realize, the Zums were canceled because per unit they were too expensive that much is true.

    Or because they don't have ammunition for the main gun, and without that the ship is can't show anything than inferrior capabilities compared to the Burke, for mor than twice as much?

    The Zumwalt is one of the endless examples of failures by the USA NAVY
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Yes, things cost more in the US congrats! do you want a cookie for figuring this out?.

    In the end it means nothing tho, we can produce those billions of dollars ships.

    So this stupid point your trying to argue amounts to nothing.




    Doesn't matter the currency, the same job cost the same in Russia like in USA.

    The exchange rate could cloud your vision, but that doesn't matter in capabilities.

    If the "we" is the USA navy ,then the answer is not, it can't afford Yassen (advanced Seawolf) class submarines.

    The budget is too tight for those bad boys : )

    The small Virginia wiener can swim only in the USA NAVY. Anything bigger sausage is unaffordable .

    Too many submarines tied up with jobs like escorting carriers.



    And it is time to recognise, Russia is a north country, with the same prospect / capabilities like Norway, Sweeden or Finland. The winter very good teacher.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:20 pm

    So, you say that as well because the ruble usd exchange rate collapsed ,and the Yasen cost went doown from the 2008 exchange rate 2.4 billion USD to 0.8 billion USD the capability of the Virignia imporved threefold thanks to exhange rate movement ?

    Don't you understand... the exchange rate is meaningless unless the Virginia class is full of Russian materials and parts or the Yasen is full of American components and parts... and neither is.

    If the dollar to ruble ratio went to 1 billion nothing would change... Yasens would not suddenly become free to make and Virginias could not suddenly become unaffordable to the US Military because the US military does not pay in rubles and the Russian Military does not pay in US dollars.

    The USA can't afford to make submarines like the Yasen, it is too expensive,and would leave all carrier strike group without sub escort.

    The level of gouging and corruption in the US means they can't afford a light 5th gen fighter that was supposed to be cheaper but isn't so they are going back a generation in the hopes that that will make it cheaper but the last model F-16s cost about 100 million a pop anyway... so with F-35 avionics crammed in them they will be the same price... but at least they can fly supersonic and not break and they wont be stealthy either but then neither were the F-35s so no big deal.

    The clincher is that they will cost 10K per hour of operations instead of 70K for the F-35 so they will be able to use them.

    The US MIC is pricing the US out of business... they wont be able to afford to go to war soon.


    To compare them to each other same tweaking and coordinate system transformation required.

    To compare Russian and US equipment prices you need a modifier to hide the corruption and outright theft of US taxpayers dollars at a time when other things need to be funded properly.

    The Seawolf was the closest equivalent (without hypersonic capable vertical launch tubes) , and they had to scrap the project after three unit due to the extremly high cost.

    Same with F-35... 500 built but they can't afford the rest... the operational costs are crippling.

    Means a 0.5 tons tomahawk missile will cost the same per kg like a 13 tons F-15 jet or a 28 tons 737.

    Tomahawks are closer to 1.5 ton...

    It means the smaller half as big ship cost half as much as the bigger one, and the bigger one is more capable than the smaller one (due to the engine-size relations of ships).

    But not across countries because that introduces too many variables.

    By your own admission the per kilo cost is similar... if we take that bullshit to be true... then that suggests that the smaller and lighter submarine weighing 7,900 metric tons dived should be cheaper than the much larger and heavier Yasen class sub... the Virginia costs 3.4 billion US dollars, and the Yasen costs about 0.8 billion US dollars... the Yasen is 13,800 tons dived so it is almost twice as heavy as the Virginia yet appears to be 4 and a quarter times cheaper...

    How heavy is an F-35 vs an Su-57 and how much do they cost.

    Seems to me the idea of price per kilo doesn't actually make any sense at all...

    What Yasen needs are numbers. Currently US has 19 Virginia and 3 Seawolf. Currently there is only 1 Yasen.

    More will be useful, but not the 60 odd the US plans to build of the Virginias... that is just obscene.


    In the end it means nothing tho, we can produce those billions of dollars ships.

    It is funny the reasoning never arrives at... hey... we are getting screwed by companies making shit for the defence department... instead it is... it is OK.... we can afford it... we can just print more money... but if that were true why would anything get cancelled because it was too expensive... surely nothing would be too expensive... except that it clearly is... even the US Pentagon wont pay a billion dollars for a toilet seat... or will it... perhaps that is the challenge...


    Or because they don't have ammunition for the main gun, and without that the ship is can't show anything than inferrior capabilities compared to the Burke, for mor than twice as much?

    They wanted to make it cheaper by giving it a gun with the range and accuracy of a missile but that costs what a gun costs to fire.

    They ended up making a gun that fires a projectile that costs more than a missile but with much shorter range and a much smaller payload...

    America.... take a good idea and make it too expensive to use.


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