F-35 Lightning II: News thread

This is like losing your Ferrari while being drunk. 

After briefly testing the aircraft Cuba sent the aircraft back in pieces by ship... they said their MiG-21s are superior and there is nothing to learn from this bloatware piece of crap....

Worse... it is losing your Ferrari when you are sober... and no one will even take it when you offer the keys and ownership papers.

One and a half trillion dollar programme and there are design flaws after 600 have been built... incompetence, corruption, lack of a real threat to justify defence spending at this level... all of the above...

Didn't you know the F-35 is so stealthy that Russia is afraid of deploying S-400 systems to Syria to fight mighty Israeli F-35s because it is afraid that
the world will know how useless it is.  

The F-35 is a corruption racket.   It is nothing to write home about.  The confidence in developing this ugly tub is all about the fact that the US and
its minions fight wars against defenseless developing countries and not peer opponents.  

Russia has not sent S-400 systems to Syria because nothing Israel can throw at it requires such systems.   The recent attacks on Syria by Israel did not
trigger use of S-300 systems for assorted reasons.   I think it is a mistake to pussy foot this way.   But the Israelis are not flying over Syria and are
launching attacks over the border so if Syria responds, then it will be "aggression".   Uncle Scumbag has parked carrier groups in the Med to offer up
a skirt from behind which Israel can act tough.

Green Hills operating systems are crap. QNX is much better. But because it is made by a Canadian company of course the US MIC won't use it. Heck, even some RT variants of Linux would be better than that crusty piece of crap.

Cost of repairing a F35 more than the acquisition cost

How many Emus are there is South Korea?

A collision with a bird damaged the undercarriage and caused a belly landing that did 140 million dollars worth of damage?

How can scraping the lower surface of the body of the aircraft cause 140 million dollars worth of damage?

That is like a ding in a supermarket car park in your Jaguar makes your car a writeoff...

Unbelievable....

Arrow wrote:The US has already produced 1,000 F-35s. RUSSIA 20 Su-57. You can see the potential difference...Of course, a joke. However, this shows that the US capabilities are still enormous.

You are comparing a medium single engine aircraft which has been in production for like a decade with a heavy twin engine aircraft which has been in production for a couple of years.
How many F-22s did the US build?

The US built a quarter of the amount of F-16s as F-15s. Like 4k F-16s to 1k F-15s.

Arrow wrote:The US built about 180 F-22s. This is still much more than Russia will build the Su-57 in the next 15 years.

Even though the F-35 is single-engine, the number of 1,000 units in about a decade is very impressive. Now they are working on the 6th generation fighter.

Is it? The F-16 was built in much larger numbers way more quickly. And the 6th generation is pure vaporware.
In the meantime Russia will have a 5+ gen aircraft in service once the Su-57M enters service. Which will definitively be out before the US 6th gen.

Also out of those 180 F-22s not even half of them will be combat available.

Arrow wrote:The Su-57M will be released in the next decade at the earliest. If you believe the US already has a tested prototype, the NGAD prototypes.

The F-35 is much weaker than the Su-57, but the US has hundreds of them and there will be even more. They produce them in huge quantities.

The problem is that they are not that useful in real war environments.

Operating costs apart, they are a logistic and maintenance nightmare.
And because stealth was the absolute priority, even maintenance access is a problem and replacing an engine (in a proper hangar) is much more complicated and lengthy in comparison to the same operation on a f18 or f16.
Imagine if you have to do that on a carrier.

I really want to see how they could cope having high pace operations with them. Apparently the stealth capabilities are also very dependant from the special coatings which need to be reapplied after every few flights.

So if they do not apply the coatings they just become very expensive alternatives to f16, with slightly better stealth (the design is still more "stealthy" than the F16, even if a lot of the stealth advantages would be lost without proper coating), but much worse flight behaviour (and availability rates).
Not to speak about the "beast mode", with all the weapons in external hard points, which probably is not more stealthy than the typical 4th generation aircraft.

Furthermore they built a lot of them when it was still the "beta" version, and it was not something minor...

At least Russia build the first prototypes in small number or make an initial small serie to check operation and fix problems, instead of starting with full serie production of something that is later cheaper to scrap than to retrofit/upgrade.

Even the US can't field that many fighter. They are much more complex today than they were before.

Having 1000 with 700 rusting in parking area is useless. Even with western support ukraine couldn't reactivate its huge fleet of rusty mig-29 and su-27.

Training that many pilors is also costly and you can't train them 2 weeks before the war to serve the planes in reserve.

It's better to have 300 fighters in good conditions and some 5000 long range missile to destroy enemy airfields and planes on the ground.

The US has already produced 1,000 F-35s. RUSSIA 20 Su-57. You can see the potential difference...Of course, a joke. However, this shows that the US capabilities are still enormous.

Production rate isn't the real issue, the difference is that the US has been producing a faulty product that fails in most areas it was designed for.

It is supposed to be able to fly into enemy airspace and attack and reduce their air defence systems to the point where normal aircraft can then be used but it has been deployed to several conflict zones but never actually used the way it was designed.

When Israel deployed them in Syria they failed to do any better than the F-16 which is a fraction of the price and cost of the F-35.

Most of the countries buying F-35s have no other choice... the US demands they spend more on defence but offers no alternative aircraft to the F-35, so they end up buying it. It actually makes the Rafale look affordable because while the costs are similar at least the Rafale does do most of what it is supposed to do.

The US built about 180 F-22s. This is still much more than Russia will build the Su-57 in the next 15 years.

The F-22 has been in production before the F-35 and is actually out of production.

They pulled the same scam... they first said they wanted 1,500 of them to replace the F-15... that way you divide the development costs into a larger numbers so it seems like they didn't waste so much money on the damn thing. Then the cold war ended and it immediately dropped to 750 planes, and when production ended it was 189 aircraft and they are not making any more. If you include development costs the F-22 was probably the most expensive fighter ever made.

They already want to retire them because they are expensive to operate and not as amazing as they pretend they are in movies.

Even though the F-35 is single-engine, the number of 1,000 units in about a decade is very impressive. Now they are working on the 6th generation fighter.

Considering the number of countries involved in the production and the number of orders it is terrible... the US was supposed to buy 3,000 for themselves and export orders was supposed to double that number... so by 2074 they should have 6,000... except they wont make anywhere near that...

6th gen is to hide the fact that 5th gen was bullshit and was a total failure for the west because even 5th gen is not good enough against a decent air defence network like the one the Russians have. Conversely for the Russians the Su-57 is going to be a serious problem for most enemy countries including HATO countries... they can't even detect Tu-143 drones flying over their airspace... it s a joke.

The Su-57M will be released in the next decade at the earliest.

Part of the M upgrade was the new engines and they will be going on aircraft rather sooner than 2030.

If you believe the US already has a tested prototype, the NGAD prototypes.

They are working on new planes and producing current that don't work properly to the point where they are also producing previous planes so they can have some working planes while waiting for the next stuff in the hope that that might work... don't hold your breath.

The F-35 is much weaker than the Su-57, but the US has hundreds of them and there will be even more. They produce them in huge quantities.

The F-35 was supposed to be able to overfly S-400s and drop cheap bombs on them to take them out... you need to get out of the western mentality that planes do everything... they don't. The Russian Air Defence systems will slaughter HATO air power and the Su-35 and Su-30 (two seat Su-35) and the Su-57 will do to HATO countries what they thought their F-35s were going to do to Russia.

Russia will lose a few aircraft but they can replace them over time... What HATO brings is everything they have, they have no depth, no reserves, and certainly no superiority when it comes to anything at all... their planning being worst of all because they are deluded by aspirations of grandeur.

Operating costs apart, they are a logistic and maintenance nightmare.

You can see in the conflict in the Ukraine that fragile systems like tanks whose filters need to be cleaned out three times a day and runs on a very special mixture of pure Kerosene and diesel is going to be more problems than it is worth... if you look at the costs of getting Abrams and Leopards and Challenger tanks to Ukraine and the problems they are having on the battlefield I would say it was really not money well spent... the complications of non standard ammo and parts and engines and wheels and transmissions... an F-35 is going to require pristine airfields and lots of maintenance to keep going and when it doesn't get those it is simply not going to work, so all that money and training time was totally wasted.

I like that they have so many F-35s... nothing drains the budget like such an expensive aircraft... the support costs alone will mean they wont be buying weapons for it let alone investing in developing new stuff... it is a large lead weight around their neck for swimming with.

Furthermore they built a lot of them when it was still the "beta" version, and it was not something minor...

And that is bad too... when they finally do get around to fixing problems they might find parts and entire sections of the aircraft need to be replaced... so not replaced on 10 prototypes, but on 1,000 aircraft in service... that is going to be disruptive and expensive... but they don't even seem to be doing that.

At least Russia build the first prototypes in small number or make an initial small serie to check operation and fix problems, instead of starting with full serie production of something that is later cheaper to scrap than to retrofit/upgrade.

Those silly Russians trying to get the design right and working before starting mass serial production... they probably don't even have "don't wear a suit to work Fridays"... how backward. I am sure Boeing have started the process of introducing engineers that are they them and not he or him because that is way more important than anything else...

It is hilarious they don't want to insult or offend the alphabet people... considering how they treat Mexicans and Cubans and North Koreans and Iranians and Iraqis and Afghans and Russians and Chinese people... sucking up to deviants while happily trying to destroy entire groups of people because of the label they have applied to such people...

It is weird... almost like the minority that control everything (the 0.1% with the money) want to distract the masses from themselves so they give power to another minority and let them break things in the name of accepting alternatives while the majority forget that they have the power and should really take control themselves... but they are too ignorant and lazy and don't understand the situation.

Even the US can't field that many fighter. They are much more complex today than they were before.

Considering the effectiveness of Russian cruise missiles in this conflict I would say any future global war the US will want to keep most of its F-22 and F-35 fleet at home to defend itself from attack. How long before Iran deploys a container ship loaded with drones and missiles and rockets and attacks a group of US or HATO ships at sea with an overwhelming swarm attack. Some sort of automated system that has the top containers launch drones and weapons and then those containers are ejected and the next layer launches more and more and more till the deck of the ship is empty, while perhaps doors underwater open and long range torpedo like drones are launched till the ship is empty... it might be manned by a 5 man crew that get into a helicopter and fly away when it starts launching... with the autopilot sending the ship at max speed into the nearest enemy port... by then it will be empty of containers that launched missiles and drones and rockets at nearby enemy groups of ships... so they will be largely depleted of SAMs if you wanted to then attack them with a second ship or sub or whatever...

Training that many pilors is also costly and you can't train them 2 weeks before the war to serve the planes in reserve.

One European country was complaining that the costs of the F-35 meant that most pilots didn't get enough flight time to stay current, and ground crews didn't get enough practise either because it was costing $70-80K per flight hour to operate these planes... that would bankrupt most countries rather quickly and certainly limit how much ordinance you buy to go with this plane and how often you actually used it.

It's better to have 300 fighters in good conditions and some 5000 long range missile to destroy enemy airfields and planes on the ground.

Exactly, and the amusing point is that hypersonic manouvering long range missiles have a much better chance of getting through any air defences and actually hitting their targets than the most stealthy fighter or missile ever developed.

And air defences against the enemy doing the same to you is worth all the aircraft in the world.

Saudi Arabia didn't see the missiles and drones that hit its infrastructure... Ukrainian La-16 drones which are NOT stealthy by any criteria, flew through the airspace of several HATO European countries without being noticed till it crashed into the ground and was found by locals.




more pics here

Saudi Arabia didn't see the missiles and drones that hit its infrastructure...

To clarify, Saudi Arabias air defence was western oriented and based, so they expected to have AWACS aircraft and JSTARS in the air in war time detecting targets and threats, so during peacetime their ground based defence systems were Patriots etc... the best money could buy, but just there to look good because fighters and AWACS were going to defend them so their ground based air defence had lots of holes in it.

Not to discredit the Houthies but you don't need stealthy missiles and drones if there are huge gaps in the air defence network... you don't need stealth weapons when there are places with zero radar coverage.

It wasn't just a case that any old missile attack would work, that attack must have been very carefully and expertly planned and executed... they are not just a group of illiterate sandal wearing goatherders... the planning and execution of this attack was amazing.

You can laugh at Saudi Arabia for not protecting what made it its enormous wealth... oil fields... but HATO is much much worse... they also expect their air power to both destroy Russian forces and also defend HATO countries... now even in an ideal world where stealth actually was critical they are going to take losses so over time their ability to attack and defend is going to weaken, and looking at Ukraine I would say they are in real trouble because developing an entire IADS is going to cost trillions and take decades... and they have neither the money nor the time nor the interest because their media and movies tells them they are winning.

Singapore to acquire eight F-35A fighters in addition to 12 F-35B variants

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air-platforms/latest/singapore-to-acquire-eight-f-35a-fighters-in-addition-to-12-f-35b-variants

70% Or More Of F-35s May Not Be Combat-Capable

A September 2023 Government Accountability Office (GAO) report on the F-35 revealed some shocking statistics on just how unready hundreds of billions of dollars worth of F-35s are to provide actual combat power. In fact, the report indicated that only 15 to 30 percent of F-35s may be capable of combat.

https://www.zerohedge.com/military/70-or-more-f-35s-may-not-be-combat-capable

And when it costs 50-80K dollars per flight hour in operating costs most countries that have them can't afford to fly them very often.

This means pilots and ground crews that are supposed to fly and maintain them respectively are not getting the hours they need to keep their operational ratings.

Flight simulators are great for remembering where all the buttons and switches are and which screens you need to use to see what is happening, but actual flight experience is important too, not to mention for the ground crews who need hasmat suits when they sand off those stealth coatings to get to the avionics panels to peel off the tape and get to the screws to open the panels to test this or that or replace some component or component board, then you have to put the panel back on and screw it down and then put tape over the line of screws and the panel joints and then paint the stealthy coatings back on and let them cure at the right temperature in the heated hangar for 12 hours or so and then you can fly the aircraft again.

Not totally ideal... and of course so many US allies seem to have 5th gen light stealth fighter programmes of their own for some reason...

So a customer should buy between 4 and 5 planes if he wants one to be operational.
Great for the MIC!

Belisarius wrote:70% Or More Of F-35s May Not Be Combat-Capable

A September 2023 Government Accountability Office (GAO) report on the F-35 revealed some shocking statistics on just how unready hundreds of billions of dollars worth of F-35s are to provide actual combat power. In fact, the report indicated that only 15 to 30 percent of F-35s may be capable of combat.

https://www.zerohedge.com/military/70-or-more-f-35s-may-not-be-combat-capable

This is the origin of the info on the F-35, the biggest debacle in Pentagon history

US General Account Office report on F-35 combat readiness.

https://www.gao.gov/assets/870/861566.pdf