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    Tu-160 "White Swan"

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:16 pm

    I have read the dimensions of both engines are very close so its should not be a huge job to fit them, but if they have a huge stock of them from stored TU-22's then it not point to change the engines..
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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:25 am

    They are totally different engines of similar size and weight and dimension and thrust and performance.

    The attachment points are different and the places for power leads and fuel lines are all different and not compatible... but then the Tu-22M3M is supposed to have fairly significant revisions in design including a lengthened bomb bay and reduced flight crew numbers as well as other major changes... surely modifying the two engine bays to make them suitable for the NK-32 engine can't be that impossible... especially if it means having one engine across the two aircraft types which makes it all worth it.

    They can focus on upgrading one engine instead of upgrading two and carry spare parts and engine purchases for one engine instead of two that are nearly the same in most regards.

    I would think after they have 50 blackjacks they wont be needing Backfire strike aircraft so much so they could flick them to another force... perhaps the Aerospace forces might want some with a revised design to carry 24 tons of air to air missiles for dealing with enormous swarms of incoming cruise missiles.... it could be a mix of small light cheap agile anti aircraft/anti missile missiles plus a few heavy missiles with nuclear warheads to deal with swarm groups while they are outside Russian airspace... preferably over enemy airspace or international waters...

    A big AESA radar and a belly covered in conformal weapon launch positions...

    Bear in mind that the difference between the RD-33 and the RD-93 is that the gearbox on top of the RD-33 is moved to the bottom on the RD-93...

    Obviously it makes more sense to change the aircraft than change the engine because that makes the engines interchangeable...
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    Post  mnztr Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:20 am

    It really depends on what the supply of engine stocks is. They have about 60 aircraft in service, out of 497 built. Which potenitially means a vast store of spare engines and other parts. If you have 800 spare engines for a fleet of 60 planes ...well then you're good. Never gonna need to manufacture a single new engine. Besides I like the blue afterburners, they are super cool.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:12 am

    mnztr wrote:It really depends on what the supply of engine stocks is. They have about 60 aircraft in service, out of 497 built. Which potenitially means a vast store of spare engines and other parts. If you have 800 spare engines for a fleet of 60 planes ...well then you're good. Never gonna need to manufacture a single new engine. Besides I like the blue afterburners, they are super cool.

    In theory yes, however engines last less than the airframes.
    Especially compressor and turbine discs and blades. Discs in particular have a finite life and need to be changed after a certain number of flight cycles (for modern civilian engines we talk about thousands of cycles, but for military engines it is highly possible that they need replacement after a relatively short number of flights.

    So they need anyway to manufacture new parts to keep the engines flying. The difference is that only parts that with a shorter lifecycle will continue to be manufactured after the end of production. This is also true for civilian engines. Restarting production after many years is difficult and costly, also because often the supply chain for some parts does not exist anymore.
    I believe this is also one of the issue with the D18T engine for the An-124 (that is anyway a really outdated engine).

    By the way after they modernize some the Tu22m3 they could even think about restarting production, if an interested foreign customer (as an example India or Iran) would pay for it. In that case also Russia could be interested in acquiring more of them.
    I know that they are going forward with the next generation of bombers, but I think that the Tu22m has still its own niche (especially if they reuse a lot of the systems developed for the Tu160M)

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:03 pm

    In this case I don't see any need to restart production. They have HUNDREDS sitting in the boneyard. I am sure if India wanted one they could refurb as many as they want to M3M  export standard. I am sure the Brahmos would fit quite nicely as well. India should buy a bunch as they have nothing that remotely resembles a strategic bomber while China is about to roll out a flying wing bomber. In response to Joe Bidens nasty comments Putin should sell a bunch to Iran in return for oil. It would competely bypass sanction as there would be no $$. Iran's KH-55 copy would fit quite nicely as well. Putin can coyly argue with the TU-22 Iran will not need as many ballastic missiles so he is only trying to help Russia's partners come to an agreement. angel angel

    As for spares, I think with 800+ sets for a fleet of 120 engines you are in good shape, unless this engine is a really parts eater. (possible for sure). If that is the case, then they should explore NK-32-02 swap.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:36 am

    Besides I like the blue afterburners, they are super cool.

    The ABs are beautiful...

    By the way after they modernize some the Tu22m3 they could even think about restarting production, if an interested foreign customer (as an example India or Iran) would pay for it. In that case also Russia could be interested in acquiring more of them.

    The advantage of the Backfire is its ability to carry bombs... an ability they have not given to the Blackjack apparently...

    The thing is that the PAK DA will also be a bomber and cruise missile carrier so the PAK DA will replace the Backfire most likely so there would be no need to put the Backfire back into production.

    I am sure if India wanted one they could refurb as many as they want to M3M export standard.

    Neither India nor China seem interested so I would just look at potential uses for Russia... I have mentioned low speed long range interceptor, but there is potential for jammer or other purposes...

    I am sure the Brahmos would fit quite nicely as well. India should buy a bunch as they have nothing that remotely resembles a strategic bomber while China is about to roll out a flying wing bomber.

    Could probably carry 8-12 externally on four weapon hard points (2-3 per pylon perhaps?)... the internal weapon bay could be filled with a fuel bladder to extend range performance...

    As for spares, I think with 800+ sets for a fleet of 120 engines you are in good shape, unless this engine is a really parts eater. (possible for sure). If that is the case, then they should explore NK-32-02 swap.

    The engines are essentially the same, but not designed to be compatible. Redesigning the aircraft to take the different engines makes sense simply because the new engines are being upgraded and improved with better thrust and better components and better design and better fuel efficiency... being able to use that in new bombers and retro fitting it to existing Blackjacks and Backfires means getting better value for money and improving the whole bomber force without having to duplicate the improvement effort across two different engines.

    Considering they generate 25 tons of thrust in full AB why not fit the old Backfire engines to the An-124... imagine a blue AB takeoff with that baby... Twisted Evil
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    Post  mnztr Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:00 am

    When you think about it, using an afterburner on a large civilian jet is not such a bad idea. Especially with twin engine planes. They have to be able to climb out on a single engine so they are very over powered for this reason. If they used afterburners they could fit much smaller engines on the planes and use them only on takeoff, making them much more efficient in cruise. But of course they would be crazy loud. Imagine what a busy airport would sound like with massive afterburning engines on takeoff.

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:05 am

    Now that there's an environmentalist position if I heard one. Seems vaguely beneficial to the environment, if only on first glance, but sure to fuck the common people - put it on Greta's list of hostage demands for next time.
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    Post  Dorfmeister Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:32 am

    mnztr wrote:I have read the dimensions of both engines are very close so its should not be a huge job to fit them, but if they have a huge stock of them from stored TU-22's then it not point to change the engines..

    Dimensions of both engines are indeed close BUT the way of attaching the engines to the airframe is not the same: so exchanging one for the other means redesigning parts of the fuselage. Would have been interesting 20 years ago, not anymore Wink
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    Post  mnztr Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:38 pm

    Its possible they could also create an adaptor to mount it, or build a variant of the NK32-02 that can mount on the TU-22. But without knowing the scope of the problem its hard to know. If they do have lots of spares and can still manufacture hot section parts, then I agree, not worth the trouble.
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    Post  Hole Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:22 pm

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 39 002713
    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 39 002813
    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 39 002915

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:01 pm

    Hole wrote:Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 39 002713
    And they call the AC-130 the Angel of Death? Rolling Eyes

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    Post  mnztr Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:11 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    And they call the AC-130 the Angel of Death? Rolling Eyes

    The AC130 is an angel of death, just the ugly angel. The TU-160 is one of the pretty ones.

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    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:36 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Neither India nor China seem interested so I would just look at potential uses for Russia... I have mentioned low speed long range interceptor, but there is potential for jammer or other purposes...

    I think they could do a proper EW version, or just a cheap upgrade like Gefest program using the SVP-24, u could also add kaira system. It wouldn't cost much you could use the older versions for this simple upgrade, having 24,000kg of dumb bombs being dropped fairly accurately on enemy targets would be devastating and cheap, in fact very cheap. And as we both have talked in the past this concept could be used on a iL-76, An-12 , or even an-24/26

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    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:47 am

    Actually rather than Kaira, I would go for several external small pylons located under the nose and belly and rear engine area clear of undercarriage and the main four weapons hard points and bomb bay where you could mount external weapons pods pointing forward and backwards that could use auto targeting to lock multiple targets at once and lase them for freefall laser guided bombs and missiles of other platforms... of course as well as various precision delivered dumb bombs and bomblets.

    Some of the underbelly pods developed for the Su-34 could be carried on the four main wing pylons for various EW and recon roles over COIN battlefields... with a bomb bay full of bombs.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:30 am

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    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:07 pm

    That was very interesting... didn't realise how much of a gap in the wing when the wings are straight... shame they didn't use the AB and go for some high speed with a short climb and swept wings...
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    Post  mnztr Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:20 pm

    TU-160M3 video. Only interesting thing is at 4:40 where they show what I *assume* is a simulator with the new cockpit.


    https://rtd.rt.com/shows/the-kalashnikova-show-military-secrets-anna-knishenko/legendary-tupolev-tu-160-strategic-bomber/Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 39 Captur10

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    Post  mnztr Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:30 am

    lyle6 wrote:Now that there's an environmentalist position if I heard one. Seems vaguely beneficial to the environment, if only on first glance, but sure to fuck the common people - put it on Greta's list of hostage demands for next time.

    True, but when I think of it they would only need to use the burners when they need emergency power. Typically takeoffs would be non afterburning.
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    Post  Daniel_Admassu Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:07 am

    mnztr wrote:TU-160M3 video. Only interesting thing is at 4:40 where they show what I *assume* is a simulator with the new cockpit.


    Nope. The guy is just sitting in a cockpit/simulator of another plane (possibly a Tu-114) for the interview. The Tu-160 does not have yoke levers. It has gyrosticks like smaller fighters.
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    Post  Backman Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:11 am

    The B1 Lancer gives the same power when in afterburner mode as the tu 160 does dry. - Megaprojects guy on Youtube. (not a big fan but YT always recommends his stuff)

    Cool eh.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:34 am

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 39 EzVMorhVkAI7FUb?format=jpg&name=medium

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    Post  JohninMK Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:28 pm

    Probably old but worth a post

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 39 E41BovaWUAgMrDn?format=jpg&name=medium

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:26 pm

    Some nice details revealed by the vets.

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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:35 pm

    Kazan Aircraft Factory completes work on the second deeply upgraded Tu-160M. 

    The Kazan Aircraft Factory is completing work on the second deeply upgraded strategic missile carrier Tu-160M, and it will soon join the tests. This was announced by the head of the UAC Yuri Slyusar.

    Kazan Aircraft Factory is conducting a deep modernization of combat strategic bombers Tu-160 to the level of Tu-160M. Currently, the first aircraft is being tested, and the second one will soon join it, work on which is already being completed. Next, both strategists will pass state tests, after which they will go to combat units.

    At the same time, a completely new Tu-160M strategic bomber, built "from scratch", is being assembled in Kazan. According to the previously announced plans, the aircraft should start testing this year, 2021. In total, under the 2018 contract, UAC will build ten new Tu-160M strategic bombers for the Ministry of Defense. In addition, a deep modernization of all combatant strategic missile carriers in service is planned.

    As previously explained in the corporation, the deeply modernized Tu-160M is equipped with new flight and navigation equipment, an on-board communication system, a control system, a radar station, a radio-electronic counteraction system, as well as new NK-32-02 engines (Series 2), the production of which is restored in Samara (UEC-Kuznetsov JSC).

    The deeply upgraded Tu-160M made its first flight with new NK-32-02 engines in early November last year. At the same time, it was emphasized that the engines installed on the aircraft are serial.

    Source: 

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