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    Tu-160 "White Swan"

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:28 am


    Stealth coating no, messes with nuclear signaling

    Avionics will be classified but whichever it gets it will be brand spanking new

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    Post  mnztr Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:26 am

    Why would a stealth coating interfere with nuclear signalling? How do they handle that on the B2?
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    Post  LMFS Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:49 am

    Yes the plane has some RCS reduction measures, as almost every plane nowadays

    I read the first new built plane would be delivered this year (the first modified one has just finished factory tests) and then state tests until 2023 seems about right, probably you can find the news confirming or denying that in this thread or in bastion karpenko
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    Post  mnztr Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:07 pm

    LMFS wrote:Yes the plane has some RCS reduction measures, as almost every plane nowadays

    I read the first new built plane would be delivered this year (the first modified one has just finished factory tests) and then state tests until 2023 seems about right, probably you can find the news confirming or denying that in this thread or in bastion karpenko

    Wow if they can deliver the first new build frame this year I will be super impressed. I cannot wait to see what tweaks they have done on the magnificent old girl.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:39 pm

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 38 Ev6x-l10
    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 38 Ev6xyn10

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    Post  LMFS Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:03 am

    Is that the regular or M version?
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    Post  LMFS Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:28 am

    Great info at Red Samovar about the Tu-160:

    In addition, Russia has launched a call for tenders for the acquisition of 40 NK-32 ser.02 reactors by 2023. Given the pace of work at KAPO (Kazan): it will therefore be a question of equipping both new and modernized devices.

    https://twitter.com/Strike_Flanker/status/1369788462690226181

    https://redsamovar.com/2020/02/16/actu-le-tupolev-tu-160m/
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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:40 am

    That's enough only for 10 aicraft. Even less if they plane to keep some as spare parts.
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    Post  LMFS Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:56 am

    Isos wrote:That's enough only for 10 aicraft. Even less if they plane to keep some as spare parts.

    To produce 40 engines and re-engine and/or assemble 10 planes in 2-3 years does not look bad to me at all...

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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:17 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Isos wrote:That's enough only for 10 aicraft. Even less if they plane to keep some as spare parts.

    To produce 40 engines and re-engine and/or assemble 10 planes in 2-3 years does not look bad to me at all...

    If there is other orders after that yes.
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    Post  LMFS Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:23 am

    Isos wrote:If there is other orders after that yes.

    There needs to be, since they have contracts for 10 modified Tu-160 + 10 newly built, the supposed final numbers of Tu-160 would be around 50 units, if disclosed plans are not changed.
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    Post  Hole Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:22 pm

    LMFS wrote:Is that the regular or M version?

    Don´t know. Either it´s a new build one or the last phase of the upgrade of an "old" bird.

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    Post  Dorfmeister Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:38 pm

    Hole wrote:
    LMFS wrote:Is that the regular or M version?

    Don´t know. Either it´s a new build one or the last phase of the upgrade of an "old" bird.

    Seems to be an upgraded aircraft, the first new build Tu-160M2 should be released from KAPO at the end of the year.

    And about the 40 NK-32 ser.02, as I've written in the Tweet quoted above: it will be for a mix of new build planes and modernised one. Ten new build Tu-160M2 have been ordered so far and they should be built by 2030, so a rate of 1,xx new build aircraft produced each year needing 4 NK-32 ser.02.

    As the state contract for powerplants runs until 2023: it means that 4 engines have already been used up by the Tu-160M B/n 14 Red which have been delivered recently, 4 engines will be used by the first new build Tu-160M2 which will be delivered this year, we might expect one new build Tu-160M2 in 2022 and one new build Tu-160M2 in 2023 so 8 extra engines needed.

    Basic maths: we got 4+4+4+4 = 16 engines. Remains 24 engines (so 6 aircrafts) until 2023, so quite a ramp up with the works on the Tu-160 modernisation to the "final standard".

    #My2Cent

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    Post  mnztr Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:41 pm

    It does not make sense to produce these at a paltry 1 frame per year. Russia has said it plans to DOUBLE the TU 160 fleet by 2027 so that means 3 planes a year once production is underway. The 40 engines will be for the TU-160M upgrades as well as TU-160M2 new builds, I wonder if they will also be proceeding with these engines for the TU-22M3M. It makes complete sense. Integrating the NK-32 into the TU-22 is much less work then restarting producton of the NK-25. That said I am not sure is there are any major barriers to fitting this engine in the TU-22
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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:04 am

    They are investing time and money upgrading the engines of the Tu-160 so it just makes sense to adapt the Tu-22M3 to use them too as they are essentially two different engines doing the same thing.

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    Post  mnztr Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:00 am

    For sure, and the extra 10K thrust and lower fuel consumption of the upgraded engine will be a bonus. They probably have lots of spare engines though. Wiki lists 497 units of TU22M built, that is pretty insane. Its probably the same sitution as the MIG-31, apparently the have lots of MIG-31 in storage with only a few hundered hours. on the airframe.
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    Post  Maximmmm Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:50 am

    I'm just still in disbelief that we're actually building new frames. I remember the internet back in 2007 when all we had was shitty youtube compilations set to heavy metal music and the one SU-47 prototype.
    And I pick specifically 2007 because it was the last year before shit started hitting the fan again with the olympic war.
    Now we're debating how quickly we need to build new bombers or if we're planning to open more bases abroad after Sudan.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:57 pm

    Maximmmm wrote:I'm just still in disbelief that we're actually building new frames. I remember the internet back in 2007 when all we had was shitty youtube compilations set to heavy metal music and the one SU-47 prototype.
    And I pick specifically 2007 because it was the last year before shit started hitting the fan again with the olympic war.

    Olympic war, I like it, perfect description for several of them

    And yeah, that boot up the ass is what saved your collective assess

    As for bombers if it ain't broke build more Cool



    Maximmmm wrote:Now we're debating how quickly we need to build new bombers or if we're planning to open more bases abroad after Sudan.

    One and only new base you need is on West Coast of Africa

    You score that golden goose and you are set for century at least


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    Post  Maximmmm Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:19 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Maximmmm wrote:Now we're debating how quickly we need to build new bombers or if we're planning to open more bases abroad after Sudan.

    One and only new base you need is on West Coast of Africa

    You score that golden goose and you are set for century at least



    That's a good one actually, I like the idea.
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    Post  The_Observer Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:07 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    One and only new base you need is on West Coast of Africa

    You score that golden goose and you are set for century at least


    Which country? The French and the Brits seem to have West Africa locked down.
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    Post  Dorfmeister Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:21 pm

    mnztr wrote:It does not make sense to produce these at a paltry 1 frame per year. Russia has said it plans to DOUBLE the TU 160 fleet by 2027 so that means 3 planes a year once production is underway. The 40 engines will be for the TU-160M upgrades as well as TU-160M2 new builds, I wonder if they will also be proceeding with these engines for the TU-22M3M. It makes complete sense. Integrating the NK-32 into the TU-22 is much less work then restarting producton of the NK-25. That said I am not sure is there are any major barriers to fitting this engine in the TU-22

    Order for 10 new build Tu-160M2 signed in 2018 and running up to 2027... so a bit more than 1 aircraft a year for the time being. KAPO is already overstretched to the limits, lacking trained workers for the projects ongoing there (Tu-22M3M, Tu-160M, Tu-160M2, Izd.80, Tu-214 conversions) so before ramping up production: they need to train their personnel, finishing the factory overhaul and have more than 10 aircrafts on order.

    And stop dreaming about the NK-32 on the Tu-22M3, basically it means redesigning the frames where the engines are fitted to the aircraft and this is not what Russia is working on: you should read this book about the differences between Tu-22M3 and Tu-22M4 (Izd.4510).

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 38 S-l1600

    On the other hand, Russia have launched a number of official tenders for NK-25 refurbishment/modernisation (with new FADEC coming from NK-32 ser.02) these ones being available here: Zakupki so the Tu-22M3M will fly with the NK-25 for the foreseeable future Wink

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    Post  mnztr Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:16 pm

    I have read the dimensions of both engines are very close so its should not be a huge job to fit them, but if they have a huge stock of them from stored TU-22's then it not point to change the engines..
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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:25 am

    They are totally different engines of similar size and weight and dimension and thrust and performance.

    The attachment points are different and the places for power leads and fuel lines are all different and not compatible... but then the Tu-22M3M is supposed to have fairly significant revisions in design including a lengthened bomb bay and reduced flight crew numbers as well as other major changes... surely modifying the two engine bays to make them suitable for the NK-32 engine can't be that impossible... especially if it means having one engine across the two aircraft types which makes it all worth it.

    They can focus on upgrading one engine instead of upgrading two and carry spare parts and engine purchases for one engine instead of two that are nearly the same in most regards.

    I would think after they have 50 blackjacks they wont be needing Backfire strike aircraft so much so they could flick them to another force... perhaps the Aerospace forces might want some with a revised design to carry 24 tons of air to air missiles for dealing with enormous swarms of incoming cruise missiles.... it could be a mix of small light cheap agile anti aircraft/anti missile missiles plus a few heavy missiles with nuclear warheads to deal with swarm groups while they are outside Russian airspace... preferably over enemy airspace or international waters...

    A big AESA radar and a belly covered in conformal weapon launch positions...

    Bear in mind that the difference between the RD-33 and the RD-93 is that the gearbox on top of the RD-33 is moved to the bottom on the RD-93...

    Obviously it makes more sense to change the aircraft than change the engine because that makes the engines interchangeable...
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    Post  mnztr Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:20 am

    It really depends on what the supply of engine stocks is. They have about 60 aircraft in service, out of 497 built. Which potenitially means a vast store of spare engines and other parts. If you have 800 spare engines for a fleet of 60 planes ...well then you're good. Never gonna need to manufacture a single new engine. Besides I like the blue afterburners, they are super cool.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:12 am

    mnztr wrote:It really depends on what the supply of engine stocks is. They have about 60 aircraft in service, out of 497 built. Which potenitially means a vast store of spare engines and other parts. If you have 800 spare engines for a fleet of 60 planes ...well then you're good. Never gonna need to manufacture a single new engine. Besides I like the blue afterburners, they are super cool.

    In theory yes, however engines last less than the airframes.
    Especially compressor and turbine discs and blades. Discs in particular have a finite life and need to be changed after a certain number of flight cycles (for modern civilian engines we talk about thousands of cycles, but for military engines it is highly possible that they need replacement after a relatively short number of flights.

    So they need anyway to manufacture new parts to keep the engines flying. The difference is that only parts that with a shorter lifecycle will continue to be manufactured after the end of production. This is also true for civilian engines. Restarting production after many years is difficult and costly, also because often the supply chain for some parts does not exist anymore.
    I believe this is also one of the issue with the D18T engine for the An-124 (that is anyway a really outdated engine).

    By the way after they modernize some the Tu22m3 they could even think about restarting production, if an interested foreign customer (as an example India or Iran) would pay for it. In that case also Russia could be interested in acquiring more of them.
    I know that they are going forward with the next generation of bombers, but I think that the Tu22m has still its own niche (especially if they reuse a lot of the systems developed for the Tu160M)

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