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    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

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    Post  Hole on Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:51 pm

    THAAD can reach targets in 150km or so. The NK missiles flew at more then 250km. Sometimes even as high as 800km.

    It would have been illegal to shoot them down because they were in outer space.
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    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:12 am

    Hole wrote:THAAD can reach targets in 150km or so. The NK missiles flew at more then 250km. Sometimes even as high as 800km.

    It would have been illegal to shoot them down because they were in outer space.

    Thanks for the clarification. But a range of 150 km for an ABM interceptor is very sad. The S-500 missiles will have much larger ranges
    than this.

    So I am not seeing all the value in THAAD.

    As for legalities. If a missile is deemed a threat, then it is a legitimate target at any altitude. If it was a satellite launch, then there
    is more legal cover.

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:21 am

    THAAD was the response to the Scud threat during Desert Storm... PAC-3 was the kneejerk reaction, while the THAAD was supposed to be the full solution.

    It was created at a time when the ABM treaty was still in effect so was only ever considered for use against theatre ballistic missiles with a range of 500km or less.

    It is the reason the Iskander is not ballistic...
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    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:10 am

    GarryB wrote:THAAD was the response to the Scud threat during Desert Storm... PAC-3 was the kneejerk reaction, while the THAAD was supposed to be the full solution.

    It was created at a time when the ABM treaty was still in effect so was only ever considered for use against theatre ballistic missiles with a range of 500km or less.

    It is the reason the Iskander is not ballistic...

    I was not clear on this aspect. So THAAD is not really designed to intercept serious IRBMs and is only for terminal phase interception of primitive ballistic missiles.
    That is why NK was harassing Japan in the way it was. Japan needs to find something better.





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    Post  Arrow on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:44 am

    GarryB but modern ABM interceptors flying very fast. THAAD about 3 km/s, SM-3 4.5km/s!. They have gasodynamic control which allows them to perform extreme maneuvers so they can react to hypersonic missile maneuvers? PAC-3 reportedly intercepting maneuvering warhead.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmjxQM2I7JU

    PAC-3 intercept MaRV warhead from Pershing !!!! Pershing's warhead can maneuver like Iskander and Kindzal. Only it is even smaller. So PAC-3 can intercept Iskander and Kindzal!!


    Storm II hypersonic maneuvering missile like Iskander and Kindzal
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:21 am

    GarryB but modern ABM interceptors flying very fast. THAAD about 3 km/s, SM-3 4.5km/s!. They have gasodynamic control which allows them to perform extreme maneuvers so they can react to hypersonic missile maneuvers? PAC-3 reportedly intercepting maneuvering warhead.

    It doesn't matter...

    A turn of 10 degrees will shift the intercept point 20km... but the incoming threat never actually gets to that intercept point because it has already turned back 10 degrees to its original trajectory and then another 10 degrees the other way... for the interceptor missile on its way that means the interception point has shifted 40km... but interception point is not just based on the targets trajectory... the interceptor missiles trajectory is also taken into account because for there to be an actual interception both objects have to occupy the same 4 dimensional space... ie same altitude, same longitude, same latitude, and the same time... if the first three are perfect but the time is 1 second out you miss by so far even a nuclear warhead wouldn't make it a successful intercept.

    When your interceptor is moving at 3km per second and the target is moving at 3km per second that means a 1 second miss is a miss by 6km instead of 3km...

    An object moving at 3km a second can have fantastic manouver capability, but it does not help if the target performs random manouvers... a simple IIR sensor on the target and it will see incoming missiles and be able to avoid them... radar sensors on them will detect active radar seekers too... and this is no revelation... the big Soviet anti ship missiles of the 1970s and 1980s were fitted with jammers and chaff decoys and flares to penetrate enemy air defences... the Granits even had a titanium armour plate to protect their warheads... it reportedly takes two R-33s to reliably destroy one... that is two lots of 50kgs of HE and fragments...

    S-500 intercepts targets moving at more than 7km/s.

    PAC-3 intercept MaRV warhead from Pershing !!!! Pershing's warhead can maneuver like Iskander and Kindzal. Only it is even smaller. So PAC-3 can intercept Iskander and Kindzal!!

    Hahahahahahaha... how much do you think a warhead can manouver and perhaps do you think a PAC-3 can intercept it before the warhead separates and therefore before it starts manouvering?

    Iskander is a nonballistic missile... at no point does it follow a ballistic path... it is manouvering like a cruise missile all the way to the target to prevent interception.

    If Iskander and Kinzhal and for that matter Zircon can be so easily intercepted why are western militaries shitting themselves... why is the British defence minister talking about restrictions in the deployment of hypersonic manouvering weapons like they were nukes?

    It is OK... if you want to believe they are interceptible then that is fine... you also believe other lies like Russia is an aggressor and the conflict in the Ukraine is all Russias fault... and that the Crimea belongs to the Ukraine... why not add another fantasy... just don't make any serious bets on it because when you find you are wrong it could be a problem...
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    Post  Arrow on Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:56 am

    Yes  the PAC-3 already intercept the MaRV. At this height, MaRv is already flying separately. So they intercept maneuvering hypersonic warheads.




    No this is  a different topic. We're talking about technology. The US has shown that it intercept MaRV.


    Hypersonic weapon is dangerous but it is not a game changer, however. Cirkon is more difficult to intercept than Iskander and Kindzal.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:31 pm

    Arrow this debate is becoming more and more ridicule.

    Hera, Storm I and II, Juno are all terribly outdated target ballistic missiles (US has, at today, no working aero-ballistic missile systems) for the most part discontinued and not capable to simulate even only end of '80 years OPFOR systems.

    If we restrict the field to air-launched ballistic missile targets we have that US Missile Defense Agency at today employ to simulate theatre to short intermediate range (up to 3000 km) ballistic missiles  :


    SRALT - Short Range Air Launch Target

    LRALT - Long Range Air Launch Target

    E-LRALT Extended Long Range Air Launch Target

    Cause the the layout and the propulsion employed and even more the problems related to after-separation stabilization and booster-phase initialization that still today ramain elusive for american specilaists (leaving aside stabilization and initialization at high-supersonic delivery....) those ballistic missile simulators must be delivered by C-17 at low subsonic speed and mid altitude with pallets and parachutes to allow the missile to reach the stable position to allow its initialization.





    Obviously those target missiles are very "rude" and technically light years far from quasi-ballistic high-maneuvrable missiles in the class of Искандер-М or Кинжал.

    The most advanced air-launched target missile in force with the US is of Israeli construction (for comparison the AQM-37C of US design is incapable eveen to simulate early version of X-22, cause the lack of sustained powered dive with pseudo-random steering until collision),that is also the unique western-backing nation having shown some scientifical success in the design and realization of aero-ballistic missiles (mostly thanks to some iniections of specialists coming from the ex-URSS after the break-up) and is the Sparrow target missiles   -Black,  Blue, and Silver in growing order of range and capabilities - but also them are at maximum capable to simulate largely outdated BMs (Scud C/D and Shihab).

    https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Silver-Sparrow.pdf
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    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:20 pm

    Looks to me like the THAAD warhead detonates in proximity and not by actual point impact.

    POS, indeed.

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    Post  Hole on Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:43 pm

    Pershing II flew like a normal ballistic missile, only a few kilometres before the target the warhead was separated and guided by a radar towards the target. It couldn´t make turns or evasive maneuvres.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:16 pm

    Hole wrote:Pershing II flew like a normal ballistic missile, only a few kilometres before the target the warhead was separated and guided by a radar towards the target. It couldn´t make turns or evasive maneuvres.

    Exactly.

    Arrow is simply lying because he has to in order to make it sound like US actually has said capabilities. But they don't. There is no maneuvering warheads for US missiles let alone Pershing. He has to make up stories and lies because his pathetic country has a crap missile structure and their ABM system is barely capable of shooting down a Scud based missile
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    Post  Hole on Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:23 pm

    If hypersonic missiles wouldn´t bring some new capabilities, nobody would invest in them, but all big countries spending billions into their development.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:07 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Really?   Suspect  Name me one other quasi-ballistic air-launched missile that is designed to attack ships from the zenith (where radar coverage is poor) at hypersonic velocities from a 1000km range....

    you're wrong its ~1,300km Razz Razz Razz
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:44 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Hypersonic means high supersonic... generally meaning mach 5 plus in this day and age.


    not really, high supersonic is below 5Ma , alwasy




    GB wrote:Both Kinzhal and Iskander manouver during their flight to their target making interception very very difficult.

    indeed it is very difficult but not impossible. there is finite number of trajectories warhead/missile can choose form. The closer to target then number of trajectories decrease thus with high computational power and highly maneuvering SAM it might be possible. Of course that's why hypersonc missiles will unlikely be launched aloe but in salvos.




    A MaRV uses its manouvering performance to manouver away from the warhead bus to hit targets well beyond the trajectory of the ICBM it was launched from... it wont be dodging bullets all the way down...


    not really in Yars case at least

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 10 Rs-24_10







    GB wrote:
    But this is not a type of hypersonic weapon like Avangard and Cirkon.

    Actually it is, the difference is that Avangard is launched from an ICBM, while Zircon is a replacement for ship launched Onyx missiles and also Granit missiles and uses scramjet propulsion and will be powered from launch to impact with target unlike Kinzhal which is rocket powered.


    taking into account that we dont know hwat is powering Avangard I'd be prudent is statements that Avangard is srcamjet powered. BTW top altitude for scramjet to wrk is ~75km and speed (between 12-25Ma) according to wiki.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:40 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:


    A MaRV uses its manouvering performance to manouver away from the warhead bus to hit targets well beyond the trajectory of the ICBM it was launched from... it wont be dodging bullets all the way down...


    not really in Yars case at least

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 10 Rs-24_10


    No it's not. Where in the world did you come to the conclusion that the skipping trajectory is a product of MaRV a technology which is designed purely to improve accuracy and not producing defensive maneuvers? The skipping trajectory was in fact carried on to Avantegarde (as confirmed by Sergei Ivanov) which supports the theory that Topol-M/Yars-24 are hypersonic gliders:

    Russian official Sergei Ivanov, smiling, compared the flight of this weapon with a pebble jumping from the surface of the water.
    https://topwar.ru/151916-zapadnye-smi-kak-dopustili-chtoby-u-strany-benzokolonki-pojavilsja-avangard.html

    MaRV is ancient (nearly 50 years old) technology that's horribly outdated. It was designed to improve ICBM accuracy from several kilometers to several hundred meters, but has been greatly superseded by satellite guidance (GPS/GLONASS) which could accurately hit targets tens of meters (as opposed to hundreds of meters), and inertial guidance which is in fact the currently the preferred method of guidance by MOD. Inertial guidance has been crowned as the best among the three because it has by far the highest ECM noise immunity (it doesn't require external sensors that could be jammed/spoofed), it's just as accurate as satellite guidance and it's cheap enough to be ubiquitously fitted to attack aircraft like the Su-24's (Gefest-T upgrade).
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:02 am

    according to wiki.

    Yeah, according to wiki Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 in an unprovoked attack on innocent georgians...
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    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    according to wiki.

    Yeah,  according to wiki Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 in an unprovoked attack on innocent georgians...

    Even the EU report on the confrontation acknowledges Georgia's guilt. Wiki is edited in real time by all sorts of interested parties
    that have all sorts of agendas. Never take anything from this toilet without a ton of salt and independent confirmation.

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:50 am


    Even the EU report on the confrontation acknowledges Georgia's guilt. Wiki is edited in real time by all sorts of interested parties
    that have all sorts of agendas. Never take anything from this toilet without a ton of salt and independent confirmation.

    That is what I am saying... wiki on its own is no good as a source.

    The THAAD and PAC-3 patriot and their other ABM systems were developed at a time when the ABM treaty was in force... the ICBM Marvs being talked about were developed at a time when ABM systems were restricted to a limited number of weapons around a single target (in the case of the Soviet system that location was Moscow).

    The purpose of MaRVs was not to evade extensive nation wide ABM systems or mobile ABM systems... it had more to do with attacking much more widely separated targets on the path of the ICBM they were fitted to.

    A standard MRV held all the warheads until a relatively short distance from the target and then released the RVs so they landed all around the point of aim to spread damage for a large area target like a city. Three 150KT warheads spread out could actually do a lot more damage to a normal city than one really big warhead because the destruction caused by nuclear weapons is highly centralised a 10MT bomb does not destroy 10 times the area of a 1MT bomb, it is like a cluster bomb... even a small 1kg cluster munition will kill, but a 500kg bomb doesn't kill over 500 times the area of a 1kg bomb. The effect is that 20-30 x 2kg bombs spread evenly over an area is more effective at killing people in the open than one 500kg bomb.

    The only time really big bombs are more useful is with protected targets where a 500kg bomb will kill people inside buildings with a direct hit whereas dropping hundreds of 1kg bombs will damage the roof and top floors but people 5-6 floors below will be fine.

    As the power of warheads increased but more importantly accuracy increased smaller warheads could be used against separate targets so MIRVs enabled different targets along the flight path of the weapon to be engaged... as the warhead bus went past an RV could be released to hit it... though the target couldn't be too far off the flight path because the whole warhead bus needs to be manouvered like a bomber to send the warhead on the right trajectory and then manouver back for the next targets.

    The idea behind MaRV is that the warheads don't travel in a warhead bus and each head towards their target from the start... not to evade interception but to improve accuracy and the distance to the targets they can engage.

    Missiles and warheads developed since the end of the ABM treaty are now getting manouvering stages that are intended to to more than just improve accuracy or extend the reach to targets out of the missiles way... they are intended to evade enemy defences...

    Iskander was one of the first because Patriot and PAC-3 patriot would make them sitting ducks if they followed a simple ballistic path... so they don't.

    Yes, with some super computers you might be able to predict what flight path options the hypersonic warheads might take, but the options would include hundreds of different paths, so you would need to launch hundreds of interceptor missiles of which only perhaps one or two might have any chance of interception... but if you have 10 missiles coming in that are timed so that the interceptors launched at the first missile can't hang around for the next target then you would need to launch thousands of interception missiles still with a fairly ordinary chance of success.

    For instance... if incoming target flys one path... all the way to target then interception can take place... but any deviation from that path anywhere from detection to impact means a potential new interception location... and that target could choose to deviate in multiple ways including climbing, or descending, turning left or right, speeding up or slowing down... or any combination of any two or three or four or five or six things, and it can do any combination of those as well... it can speed up and slow down... it can turn left or right or it can turn left AND right, it can turn left and slow down and then right and then climb and then speed up... the actual flight path cannot be predicted even with a super computer, because as fast as you calculate its options it can be manouvering in ways that make all previous calculations useless and all already launched missiles ineffective...

    A volley of nuclear detonations is about the only option to assure an intercept which could do more damage than the incoming missiles because you will be setting these nukes off over your own forces...

    The British Defence minister wanted to include hypersonic manouvering missiles with nuclear weapons and bind their deployment in treaties... is that because he thinks they can already intercept them at will?
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    Post  kvs on Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:27 pm

    I find it strange how outdated US missiles are. Russia was working on bleeding edge missile tech even during the 1990s when workers were not paid or got paid in barter goods. This fact underlies the current advanced state of Russian missile systems. By contrast the US is selling the THAAD to Japan and others as some worthwhile system. I know that the US has introduced new missile systems over the last 20 years, but their specs are underwhelming. Now they are scrambling to develop supersonic-class anti-ship missiles (supposedly they will
    just jump over supersonic to hypersonic in one leap). Their ICBMs are ancient as well. For the self-anointed masters of the universe
    this is extremely strange considering how pauper Russia is doing in the missile tech realm.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:28 pm

    kvs wrote:I find it strange how outdated US missiles are.   Russia was working on bleeding edge missile tech even during the 1990s when workers were not paid or got paid in barter goods.   This fact underlies the current advanced state of Russian missile systems.  By contrast the US is selling the THAAD to Japan and others as some worthwhile system.   I know that the US has introduced new missile systems over the last 20 years, but their specs are underwhelming.   Now they are scrambling to develop supersonic-class anti-ship missiles (supposedly they will
    just jump over supersonic to hypersonic in one leap).   Their ICBMs are ancient as well.   For the self-anointed masters of the universe
    this is extremely strange considering how pauper Russia is doing in the missile tech realm.


    Lets further investigate this. As I already mentioned the U.S. had access to parts of S-300V by the 'compromiser' Boorish Yelpsin, had access to Slovakian and Greek S-300's via NATO exercises, has had strong influx of scientists and engineers from Asia (to make up for their brain drain at home), had the luxury of having modern digital electronics and more than adequate funding, but yet PAC-3 still has overall inferior characteristics to S-300PS, a system introduced in 1979, and it's development started from the mid 1960's. That in itself isn't the biggest kicker, the biggest damnation against the Patriot series is the fact that Raytheon has completely given up on improving the PAC-3 series, and completely outsourced the development of PAC-4 to the Israeli based Rafael concern. A country of 320 million with the biggest military budget in history, is completely incapable of meeting the needs of their nations aerospace defense, and is reliant on a country of 6 million (1/53rd the population) to meet those very needs....the same country that 1/6th of their population (including many of their scientists and engineers) are ex-USSR.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:50 pm

    We need to take into consideration a few things:
    1 - Russia has export variants of everything. Meaning it won't compromise their own specific models. Even then, their non export models made its way to the west (V and PMU/PMU1) and it didn't lose a threat to Russia. What matters is it's IFF transponders which Russia does not give away or share.
    2 - It's S-400 basic. Meaning it doesn't carry Nebo M or newer AESA radar systems that work in conjunction of S-400.
    3 - This system is same as one sold to China and being sold to India and offered to other nations. The only nation's that may be pissed off would be those nation's if the "secrets" are sent to USA. But yet China who has them, is same what India is getting yet India is OK with their rival China having same system. It's because, not same IFF so there isn't much either side will learn or can do against such a system.

    Hence why Russia said they could sell this system to USA without it compromising themselves.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:30 am

    And just as importantly surely of all the countries around the world no one knows the secrets of the S-400 system better than the Russians, yet China and India and Turkey seem to be OK with buying a system to defend themselves that Russia knows inside and out.

    Not to mention most of the new Iranian SAMs are basically modified versions of American missiles... HAWK, Phoenix, Standard, etc etc.
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    Post  kvs on Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:And just as importantly surely of all the countries around the world no one knows the secrets of the S-400 system better than the Russians, yet China and India and Turkey seem to be OK with buying a system to defend themselves that Russia knows inside and out.

    Not to mention most of the new Iranian SAMs are basically modified versions of American missiles... HAWK, Phoenix, Standard, etc etc.

    It proves how difficult it is to design and build such missile systems from scratch. If it was a matter of money (like a lot of fanboi
    lemmings think) then everyone and his dog would have their own indigenous world class systems. That Russia stands out in this field
    in spite of the 1990s super depression and the transition to a whole new economic and political system (as if that was trivial) shows
    what its level really is. It ain't no mud hut banana republic light years behind the west. The west always underestimates Russia
    and always loses...

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    Post  Arrow on Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:20 am

    Some sources said that Kindzal can fly with speed 12M
    https://radiosputnik.ria.ru/20180312/1516134267.html
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:15 pm

    Arrow wrote:Some sources said that Kindzal can fly with speed 12M
    https://radiosputnik.ria.ru/20180312/1516134267.html

    If true it's definitely just unsafe speed with risk of disintegration, like Mach 27 on Avangard

    Missiles have speed limit too, in this case it's Mach 10


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