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    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Wed Mar 20, 2024 7:07 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Stored T-62 is like Mosin  rifle in WW2, it was used since it was cheaper in  mass production and was in production already but in no way it was planned to be main infantry weapon in the future. Even during was it was phased out.

    T-62, first and foremost, was the last tank constructed for a mass conscripted army.
    Training of a crew was something like 2 weeks in peacetime.
    This is something you need, if your army is being increased by a factor of 3, in 2 years.

    The more I observe this war, the more my general opinion changes.

    It is quite a funny observation, but de facto there is indeed no big difference between T-62 and T-14 ...

    One just need to take a wider look to realize.

    This war is a drone war already.
    And a drone doesn't care much if you are fancy & shiny $10 mln T-14, or a rusty bin taken out of storage, refitted for $500k.
    It is not a tank vs. tank battlefield anymore.
    Take a look at the tactics.
    They operate a single tank strong forces ...
    Lot's of raids and lot's of epic performances we could witness, for both sides.

    T62, with a solid brass cases ammo, can be a harder nut to crack rather than T-72B. It is harder to cook it off.

    It is more a matter if you even have a tank or not.

    115mm HE round can demolish field fortification just the same way as 125mm ones.
    115mm HEAT round can take out any armored vehicle less than the latest tanks provided in symbolic numbers.
    115mm APDSFS round can do the same, and has a funny feature, you know?
    It is a HUGE modernization potential.
    A whole round of BM type is 988 mm long. A METER.
    And you want to know the consequences? It was possible to use newly developed penetrators for it's upgrades. Depleted uranium penetrators arrived at the end of the 70s, and were just the same as 125mm 3BM29.
    At the end of the 80s, they simply placed a Vant penetrator into it, making 3BM36 ...
    And now, as they have reincarnated the project, what came along was a Svinets/3BM60 rod placed there...
    And that is still not the end of the story - this gun can end up with tungsten/DU rods 950+ mm long. And you know what it means? Laughing Laughing
    3BM3 of the 60s was able to penetrate the frontal armor of Leopard 2 ...

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Mar 20, 2024 8:37 am

    Why would they lose any at all... Russian air defence would reach deep into HATO airspace and current Russian missiles seem able to penetrate HATO air defences with ease to destroy the handful of western HQs and Comms centres and air fields and of course SAM sites.

    Kiev is out of SAMs... how many does HATO have left?

    lol1

    They can't effectively destroy ukro air force that uses su-24 and you really think they can do shit against nato air forces with their 100 su-35 against 130 rafales, 400 typhoon, 800 f-16, 100 f-22 and now 1000 f-35.

    Mig-35 has a radar with 120km range against a normal fighter. R-37M is useless for it till they install that aesa with 260km range. Meteor is very well working.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Mar 20, 2024 8:50 am

    Isos wrote:Meteor is very well working.

    All 20 pieces?

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    Post  xeno Wed Mar 20, 2024 9:54 am

    F-22 and F-35 are not able to launch the magic meteor for now.
    Even you try to make them compatible with meteor, you have to put them under the wings instead of inner bays(no, absolutely no way to put them inside), which make F-35 a normal fighter instead of a stealth jet.
    Just a reminder...

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    Post  Belisarius Wed Mar 20, 2024 9:55 am

    They can't effectively destroy ukro air force that uses su-24 and you really think they can do shit against nato air forces

    Go back in time and replace every Su-27, Su-25, Su-24 and Mig-29 that Ukraine had with the Western fighters you mentioned, and you will see a new timeline where the Ukrainian air force will have a massive drop in number of combat missions simply because all of these Western fighters have low reliability, are expensive and complex to maintain and operate, have horrible availability and are incapable of operating from unprepared runways.

    Mig-35 has a radar with 120km range against a normal fighter. R-37M is useless for it till they install that aesa with 260km range.

    You continue to provide no evidence that there is no Aesa radar on the Mig-35.

    Meteor is very well working.

    That's what was thought about another European missile, the Iris-T, but instead of hitting aerial targets, the Iris-T continues to fall on the heads of civilians in Kiev...

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    Post  diabetus Wed Mar 20, 2024 11:14 am

    GarryB wrote:I would add that having lots of modern fighters with modern AESA radars that can look deep into enemy territory is an advantage because those aircraft could be carrying Kh-38s and other standoff weapons they could deliver straight away, which means having more sensors on the battlefield watching the enemy, but also more ready to fire weapons pointing at the enemy too.

    Imagine a Kh-38 variant with a LMUR guidance system where the guy in the front seat of the MIG-35 can be flying the plane looking for ground based and air based threats while the guy in the back is using the radar and EO systems to find targets and communicate with ground forces and launching and controlling missiles and drones...

    Sure there would be more risk, but also more situational awareness and more ready to fire weapons... we know the Kh-31 is an excellent anti radiation missile and the Kh-35 is a good land attack missile and all the other new weapons they are bringing in to service.

    How do we know the kh-31 is excellent? If it was, then they wouldn't be using Iskander and kh-35 to target air defense sites.
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Mar 20, 2024 12:14 pm

    Belisarius wrote:
    That's what was thought about another European missile, the Iris-T, but instead of hitting aerial targets, the Iris-T continues to fall on the heads of civilians in Kiev...

    To be fair, what falls on the Ukro heads are the remains of Iris after the warhead detonates. The system proved to be quite capable and scored lots of Ch-101. Or Ch-55 decoys Laughing

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    Post  Isos Wed Mar 20, 2024 1:28 pm

    If Iris T and patriot are that bad why Russian are not flying in Ukraine instead of developing guided glide bombs to stay 70km away from Ukraine ?

    I remember how everyone was saying russian aircraft need nothing like that because su-34 have inbuilt targeting systems that made every dumb bomb a guided one.

    What we saw was su-34 falling like moskitos and nog entering ukraine anymore. And even soviet systems were a threat to them.

    With so few western systems they closed the air space to Russia.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Mar 20, 2024 1:38 pm

    Your idee fixes are powered with the same butthurt Micron is consuming, or is it your special mixture? scratch

    It would be really hard to put more idiocies in such a short statement.

    Call me impressed.

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    Post  Hole Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:17 pm

    100 su-35 
    150 Su-35´s. Plus roughly the same number of Su-30´s. Plus 150+ MiG-31´s.
    Not to forget the growing number of Su-57´s.

    130 rafales, 400 typhoon, 800 f-16, 100 f-22 and now 1000 f-35.
    You forget 450 F-15´s. But only 40% of those planes are combat ready.
    That means around 600 western planes against 450 Russian onen.
    Not to mention the most dense and combat proven AD network in the Solar System.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:44 pm

    Plus 150 Su-34, capable of using R-77.
    Plus <20 Su-33 which were modified to carry it, too.
    Plus 20+ MiG-29K.
    Plus around 10 MiG-35.
    Plus Su-57 in a number of some 40 pcs ...

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    Post  Belisarius Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:14 pm

    If Iris T and patriot are that bad why Russian are not flying in Ukraine instead of developing guided glide bombs to stay 70km away from Ukraine ?

    The range of Russian guided bombs is around 40 km and not 70 km, unless they are equipped with a booster, something that most of them do not have.
    The Patriot has a range of 160 km, Ukraine can place a Patriot 50 km away from the front, far from any Russian kamikaze drone and still hit aerial targets more than 110 km in the Russian rear.
    See? All your narrative went to the trash can because every day Sukhois drop hundreds of guided bombs while flying deep within the range of the Patriots.

    I remember how everyone was saying russian aircraft need nothing like that because su-34 have inbuilt targeting systems that made every dumb bomb a guided one.

    Ballistic computers allowing an unguided bomb/rocket to hit with precision has been present in fighters for almost half a century, the only advantage of a guided projectile is the range, and depending on the guidance system, the ability to hit a moving target.

    What we saw was su-34 falling like moskitos and nog entering ukraine anymore. And even soviet systems were a threat to them.

    It has been almost a year since a Su-34 was shot down, and those that were shot down do not reach 0.01 of the number of combat missions that the Su-34 made during the entire war, to say that a plane that returns to its base without a scratch 99.99% of the time is falling like moskitos it's stupidity at the very least, even pro-Ukrainians are criticizing Ukie propaganda for recent fake claims of Su-34 shootdowns.

    By February 2022 Ukraine was the country with the highest number of AD per km2 on the planet, all of them Soviet AD, now most of that AD is gone while the majority of Flankers still fly and bomb Ukraine every day. So much for being a threat...

    With so few western systems they closed the air space to Russia.

    Ukie propaganda talks about "closed air space to Russia" long before Ukraine received western AD, so spare me the "super duper western game changer". And their airspace is more open than a whore's legs to Russian bombs, drones and missiles.



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    Post  George1 Wed Mar 20, 2024 7:53 pm

    Isos wrote:
    lol1

    They can't effectively destroy ukro air force that uses su-24 and you really think they can do shit against nato air forces with their 100 su-35 against 130 rafales, 400 typhoon, 800 f-16, 100 f-22 and now 1000 f-35.  


    Hole wrote:
    130 rafales, 400 typhoon, 800 f-16, 100 f-22 and now 1000 f-35.
    You forget 450 F-15´s. But only 40% of those planes are combat ready.
    That means around 600 western planes against 450 Russian onen.
    Not to mention the most dense and combat proven AD network in the Solar System.

    and 600 Super Hornets
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    Post  Isos Wed Mar 20, 2024 8:17 pm

    Ooh yeah 40% available but russia has 100%. Get real a little. Just look at all the crashes they had since the begining of the war, it matches their actual losses.

    The Patriot has a range of 160 km, Ukraine can place a Patriot 50 km away from the front, far from any Russian kamikaze drone and still hit aerial targets more than 110 km in the Russian rear.

    And Patriot was used effectively to destroy many fighters inside Russia.

    It has been almost a year since a Su-34 was shot down, and those that were shot down do not reach 0.01 of the number of combat missions that the Su-34 made during the entire war, to say that a plane that returns to its base without a scratch 99.99% of the time is falling like moskitos it's stupidity at the very least, even pro-Ukrainians are criticizing Ukie propaganda for recent fake claims of Su-34 shootdowns.

    It's been one and half year su-34 don't enter in Ukro air space. They still got losses accross the border because of patriots.

    Not to mention the most dense and combat proven AD network in the Solar System.

    Russian navy doesn't agree with all the ships they have at the bottom of the sea. They even lost a submarine.

    It's a remake of the Malvinas war. A big power loosing ships to a couple of french missiles.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Mar 20, 2024 8:31 pm

    You have done with wanking?
    Good.
    Now get real.
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Mar 20, 2024 9:03 pm

    George1 wrote:
    and 600 Super Hornets

    Sure.
    But you need to take them ashore.
    Otherwise, the carriers won't be able to get in range - Russkie antiship missiles will devastate them.
    Being ashore, all will be targeted.
    You live in Greece.
    How many bases with infrastructure to operate your planes you have left?

    Are your bases prepared to deal with all the types you operate?

    It is a rhetorical question as I know the answer.

    Germany struggles to keep 10% of them really working conditions.
    TEN.
    How does it apply to Italy or Spain?

    Just for the record, I consider Eurofighter to be a formidable battle machine.
    Just like the Rafale.
    Both do not need a cheerleader team to make high jumps.
    Only consistent technical support and proper financing to operate.

    Europe lacks both.

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    Post  Hole Wed Mar 20, 2024 10:03 pm

    Judging by the last few GAO reports the US lacks it, too.

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    Post  Belisarius Wed Mar 20, 2024 11:58 pm

    And Patriot was used effectively to destroy many fighters inside Russia.
    They still got losses accross the border because of patriots.

    You've already stated this multiple times and I've refuted these allegations multiple times by pointing out the lack of evidence, the fact that you don't address my argument regarding the lack of evidence shows everything we need to know about the real truth here.

    It's been one and half year su-34 don't enter in Ukro air space

    It's been one and half year since the Su-34 has been dropping tens of thousands of bombs killing and injuring tens of thousands of enemy soldiers while destroying fortified positions, command posts and ammunition depots across the entire front line, all of this recorded by photos and videos, contrary to your allegations about Patriot...

    And the funniest part is that you criticize the VKS for not flying within Ukrainian space at the same time that you praise the NATO air forces that have spent the last few decades purchasing thousands of Taurus, Scalp and Lrasm missiles precisely to allow them to attack enemies with strong AD without needing to enter their airspace, because they know they will be gang-raped by AD from countries like China or Russia.

    Russian navy doesn't agree with all the ships they have at the bottom of the sea. They even lost a submarine.

    A leak in an AD does not prove its inefficiency, because there is no AD with a 100% success rate. The fact that Ukraine spent enough Scalps to sink a cruiser against every Russian ship says everything we need to know about Russian AD.

    It's a remake of the Malvinas war. A big power loosing ships to a couple of french missiles.

    lol1  lol1  lol1  lol1
    Holy shit man, you're so good at being a comedian lol!
    Sheffield, for example, was sunk more by British incompetence than by the few French missiles of which one fell into the water and the other failed to explode.

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    Post  sepheronx Thu Mar 21, 2024 2:32 am

    Patriot hasn't shot down anything that is a fighter.

    Plus Russia still has a large fleet of old fighters much like US.

    MiG-29's, Su-27's, Su-24's, etc.  These are still in large numbers.  Not exactly top notch or extremely capable, but enough to field medium range AA missiles and enough to drop guided munitions.

    Russian AD is best class, but not like it can guard beyond airfields and key places. If they want to protect everything, they will need to build a significant more AD systems around all major places. Extremely expensive. Maybe thanks to AI and automation, they could build much more and keep them unmanned.

    Anyway, its something like 64% of US jets are flyable. That was a statistic a few years ago. Its gonna be worst now. EU is way worst off. They still would have more jets than Russia but the thing is, you cant just launch all your jets all at once. Instead, most of these airfields, including in Russia, would be hit and hit hard. Russia may survive better because of its AD systems but eventually overwhelmed. Maybe hidden airfields or ones protected by mountains would suffice better. But overall, both sides would lose their airforces.

    So ground forces would do far better. Soviet union was aware of this. Their key targets was airfields and airports. They would have struck them hard and then have to rely against token forces of enemy airforces and then a large ground force. Hence why AD systems is ideal, especially mobile.

    Very moot conversation really.
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Mar 21, 2024 2:51 am

    It's a stupid conversation

    We talk about the loss of 300+ jets, su27/mig29/su24/su25

    The war has shown numbers will do nothing against air defense

    And these planes were rigged to carry western stealth missiles

    And they have hit a couple of refineries and nothing else

    These have not sunk ships, bridges, or valuable military targets as of yet

    The only naval threat so far has been USVs launched from the coast

    But western missiles have not made a dent, neither have their air defense - considering the amount of bombs and rockets striking HIMARS, S300, Patriot, IRIS and all else under the sun

    If you want to throw 600 f18, and 400 euro fighter,  rafales

    They will end just like the Ukrainian air force

    With losses exceeding hundreds of planes

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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:32 am

    amazingly then that Russia didnt stay with T-62 but moved and buikt T-14.

    Not every job requires a 50 ton 3 million dollar tank, and the T-62s are made and it would actually cost money to unmake them. A little bit more money to upgrade them when you need them and so you are investing money in ERA and potentially APS systems and optics and other equipment used to upgrade older vehicles to make them effective in roles you have planned for them.

    The next Russian tank is going to be about four different vehicles all likely with the T-14 turret, but there are going to be Kurganets and Boomerang and probably DT-30 and Typhoon based tanks.

    Each will have different prices and operational costs and performance levels.

    What's more funny after Ukraine ceases to exist T-14 will be produced and T-62 not.

    The way the west is acting I am sure there will be plenty more conflicts Russia will be dragged in to, either directly or helping a friend to fight off the evil western empire.

    Most of the time T-14s wont be that much more effective because for all their electronics, operating in Africa or Asia in an armed force that does not have a lot of EW and C4STAR equipment it wont do a lot better than the M1 abrams and Challengers and Leopards are doing in the Ukraine.

    The T-14 design should ensure crew survival most of the time, which is about as much as you can hope for a tank design but the T-14 is no super tank any more than any tank is a super tank. Tanks get destroyed in war. Get over it.  If you think spending 7 million dollars on a new Leopard 2 or Abrams or Challenger 3 is going to make it a weapon that cuts through all enemy forces and wins the war then you are an idiot... and the T-14 is not going to be able to do that either.

    Which is why numbers tanks and numbers planes make sense... Police SWAT teams normally prevail because it is one or two guys against dozens and dozens of heavily armed guys in body armour. When you are a coordinated force that is communicating together then numbers really do help... at the start of WWII the Soviets had thousands of T-26s which were two man tanks with a driver and a guy who was commander and gunner and loader. Without a radio in every vehicle... or more accurately a radio in the command tank and receivers in the other vehicles the formation commander can direct the group to head in this or that direction but his visibility was pretty poor so in combat you aimed and fired at targets till you were hit and then you bailed. Having 60 tanks didn't help if 30 couldn't see a target and the remaining 30 opened up on the first tank they saw which mean one enemy tank got hit multiple times and the other tanks (German tanks) had commanders directing their gunners to fire on the enemy tanks and the loaders kept the guns loaded.

    It is pretty obvious if an armoured force met an armoured force that if one side was half T-62s and half T-72s they could communicate and the T-62s can concentrate on the vehicles they can penetrate easily like BMPs, while the T-72s can target the heavier vehicles. The more large calibre guns you have pruning the enemy force the quicker you take out their ability to take you out.

    Equally with aircraft a flight of an Su-35 with four MiG-35s all flying at the same speed and the same altitude where the Su-35 uses its radar to find targets and pass the target information to the radar silent MiG-35s then you massively increase your fire power... a Flanker normally carries 12 missiles and a MiG-35 can carry 8 missiles, but in actual combat they never carry full weapon loads on the Flanker, but the MiGs could carry a full weapon load as it is closer to the number of weapons it might use...

    Me thinks that due to Manul Kurganets will be either depely modified or even build new IVF on his place not upgraded BMP-1 or 2.

    Manul is a nice affordable upgrade but it is a single vehicle type and the existing pool of BMP-1 and BMP-2 are not going to be scrapped or discarded.

    Russia is a large country and not every frontline would require Manul or Kurganets or Boomerang based vehicles.

    Stored T-62 is like Mosin rifle in WW2, it was used since it was cheaper in mass production and was in production already but in no way it was planned to be main infantry weapon in the future. Even during was it was phased out.

    Not true. Mosin rifles would not be issued for war these days to active Russian soldiers. The Ukrainian rebels using Mosins were using their fathers or grandfathers rifles and these men didn't take army rifles home, they were likely sold as hunting rifles, and those soldiers were likely familiar with using them so they used them in service before Russia joined the conflict because they probably didn't have an enormous range of choices.

    The Russian military has millions of AK-74s in stock... when Kalashnikov was talking about the AK-12 the military mentioned they had something like 17 million rifles in storage, so there is no reason to break out Mosins now. I own quite a few of them actually and they are a rather good hunting rifle. Solid reliable, and accurate. Ammo is still in serial production and is available... and would be very widely available in Russia.

    The T-62 has a main gun that is powerful enough to be used on a modern battlefield as direct fire support for infantry units and attacks on hardpoints. It could also be used against a wide range of armoured vehicles on the battlefield including BMPs etc.

    Remember it also has 5km range gun tube fired ATGMs so it can be firing at modern western MBTs at ranges they might not penetrate a T-62M with armour upgrades and ERA from the front.

    absolutely right. And yet Su-27 are also gradually being phased out as their life ends.

    Su-27 and MiG-29SMT are old airframe aircraft. The MiG-35 and Su-35 are brand new production and design. No where near obsolete.

    But that's the idea. Use as long as you can but it won't be long anyways. During war equipment wears out by order of magnitude faster then during storing. . They're gonna wear out and will be withdrawn. Did you hear about plans to restart production of T-62 or Su-25? even in peace times? neither did I.

    MiG-35 is as new a design as the Su-30 and Su-35 aircraft they are producing right now.

    It will just be cheaper to operate and be able to operate from rough field airstrips.

    In my opinion is you stop delivering Chinese engines they might stop delivering you electronic components you depend on, Or sell thousands of drones monthly. Especially that we speak of legacy fighter produced in homeopathic numbers.

    They are not making thousands of engines for the Chinese aircraft... in fact they might be sitting idle and this order for MiG-35s might get them working again...

    instead of building other aircraft? number of workforce and suppliers is not infinite. What lower costs? costs are actually higher. Since fixed costs are the same and with small barch you never get small nt cost. . Will be couple time higher then Su-35.

    A smaller lighter aircraft uses less materials to make. The cost will decrease with solid orders where they can start ordering materials in bulk and prepare for serial production.

    But we do: ramped up Su-30/34/35 production and Su57. Looks like Su-57n is not ditched at all.

    Production rates seem to have increased but I have not heard of any extra orders for the Su-57... they are still making 76 of them, but they will likely arrive faster and if they are happy with their performance I fully expect at least one follow on order... but Su-57s and Su-35s and Su-30s and Su-34s are large expensive aircraft that cost more to operate than a MiG-35.

    If you own a transit van and a motorbike, when it is sunny you would ride the motorbike into the city to work at an office job, and save the transit van for when it is pissing down rain or freezing cold or if you need to shift something like a bed or a chest of drawers or a fridge.

    Right now they only have transit vans... the Su-34 has lots of space for all sorts of stuff in the back and the Su-30/35 has 12 seats in the back as a people mover, but neither are great in urban traffic and neither are easy to park. Having a motor scooter that you can wheel into your office and lean against a wall and not pay parking fees just saves a lot of money all round.

    You don't seem to grasp: 200 might would be delivered in 2030s and you expect plane designed in 1970's to be effective in 2040s?

    Against F-15s. Aerodynamically the MiG-35 is astounding... it has 3D thrust vectoring engines and amazing aerodynamic performance and in 2040 who knows what sort of engines and radar and missiles it will be rocking.

    But lets look at the MiG-31 and its use of long range AAMs in this current conflict... it seems with target data and a very long range missile and being able to climb up high and accelerate to a decent speed quickly you don't even need to be able to pull more than 5 g to win an air to air battle.

    In fact with A-100s in service I doubt modern fighters will be using their own radar a whole lot anyway, but having a decent modern radar set is a good thing too.

    Aircraft are delivery platforms for weapons... just like tanks are delivery platforms for their main gun rounds.

    When getting hit by a HE shell the target wont care whether it is 115mm or 125mm.

    When the R-37M arrives on target it wont matter if it is an Su-35 or MiG-35 that fired it because both are capable of the same altitude and speed performance... I doubt the target would have any idea, but the Russian AF will know because the MiG-35 does it cheaper.

    It doesn't sound like those are plans for RuAF. RuAF seem sot eb pushing Su-75 as light fighter cheaper to operate.

    Which just shows you are not even listening... even Sukhoi has said the Su-75 is for export and that the Russian Military might look at it when it is ready but they are not a projected customer of the aircraft.

    This was something Sukhoi did on their own... unlike the Su-57 which was a project for the Russian AF as a customer.

    But new design form 2020s not 1970s and Su-57 for the future

    They are going to continue to make Su-35/30/34 types even though on paper the Su-57 is a fighter and a bomber and a strike platform.

    The non stealthy types carry more weapons and can be used in a wide range of roles where stealth really offers no advantage.

    For the same reason the MiG-35 also makes sense in a large air force.

    When you only have 600 fighters then it makes sense to have 600 of your best and longest ranged fighters carrying the most weapons.

    When you have 2,000 fighters or plan for larger numbers then smaller lighter cheaper if less capable fighters make sense... otherwise why would the single engined MiG 5th gen light fighter or the Su-75 or indeed the F-35 even exist?

    Obviously the F-35 is a failure as a light fighter because it is not cheap or affordable.

    had in 2005 Skat.No info since 2010s. . Light 2 engine fighter maybe yes maybe not . Well need to wait.

    If you have a look at the models they showed the drone is not Skat.

    It has a vertical tail structure, with a stealthy angle.

    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2 - Page 32 Bd721a10

    Exactly! and they won't. Did you hear about even plans for MiG-35 production/procurement last two years?

    Of course they would have tested it in the Ukraine, and there are comments by Russian AF officals that they are going to start serial production of the MiG-35 as a numbers aircraft.

    yup costs, logistics workforce and time to name a few.

    The people who made the first 6 aircraft at low rate production could easily make 12 new aircraft per year without much change other than more orders from subcontractors for parts. The parts they are ordering... radars engines electronics, are not used on Flankers, so there are no other customers for competition.

    Think of it as Coke vs Pepsi where Coke just dominates and pepsi made 6 bottles in the last year. Those 6 bottles require a bottling factory to make because those 6 bottles were not hand made they were just produced very very slowly. Ramping up production of aircraft is not the same as shifting gear and making thousands of bottles a day, but increasing production for 6 or 7 different aircraft is not impossible when they are made in different factories.


    Su-57 is already in production and Su-75 has many common parts.

    Su-75 hasn't even flown yet, commonality with Su-57 is meaningless if both are not already in serial production.

    It would also mean if the Su-75 did get to serial production level it would require parts from the companies and subcontractors already supplying parts for the Su-57 and might slow down Su-57 production because of the strain.

    We dont know when Su-75 will be operational though. With launching mass production it seems lead time this is not far from MiG-35

    And there you go... Su-75 hasn't even flown yet and is no where near serial production. The MiG-35 is in low rate serial production... going from low rate serial production to high rate serial production is easier than going from airshow prototype mockup to flying prototype through the testing and evaluation process with problem solving and design issues to get it to where it can be serially produced. Once it reaches serial production level then I agree it should be easier with existing Su-57 production capacity would enable serial production to be easier... but that is not going to happen till after 2030... they are not planning a first flight till 2026 or 2027.

    surely then Sukhois will slow down not enough components or workforce. Smart decision in wartime if you ask me.

    MiG factories have their own workforce, and Sukhoi does not use Klimov engines or the radars and other avionics systems the MiG-35 uses. Even the IRSTs are different.

    Not to mention Yak is 90s design. (MiG-29 - 70s)

    The MiG-35/29M/29K are new design aircraft with totally different internal structure and materials... they are actually 2000s designs.

    Just as the Su-35 is not an Su-27 from the 70s either.

    Su-34 have been doing this last 2 years why to add new type of manned aircraft?

    Because Su-34s cost more to operate than their flankers and probably cost four or five times more than a MiG-35 costs per hour to operate.

    OK the reality is no plans for CAS aircraft. Nowhere. Choppers? surely will evolve but CAS role unlikely will be theirs. Russian Ka028 use LMUR with 15km range what actually is not CAS anymore...

    We have no idea what their plans are, and they seem to continue to use Su-25 aircraft in this conflict.

    An Su-25 with a twin LMUR launcher on each of 6 of its pylons, and two mounts for 8 Vikhr missiles on the remaining two weapon pylons would make it rather formidable. 12 LMUR missiles and 16 Vikhrs and a 30mm cannon... the Vikhrs are fully multirole missiles for air and ground use. (in the air to air role they have a proximity fuse).

    Of course an important feature of the Su-25 was the ability to fly in and drop two 250kg bombs on a target or launch heavy rockets with 125kg HE warheads in each rocket... of course this capacity has been eclipsed by faster aircraft operating further back from the front line with glide bomb kits.

    We will see what they ask of their aircraft designers.

    possibly but then it won't be CAS... but platform for standoff weapons.

    CAS is just supporting front line units with air support... Stuka and Shturmovik style... whether it is a Su-25 or a MiG-35 does not really matter... it is all about communication with front line soldiers finding the enemy positions holding them up and hitting it with ridiculous levels of HE with a precision that prevents own goals.


    We both know its not true. F-35 has a looong list of orders and it was already 1000+ fighters made. F-15? 100?

    Orders from customers who ironically are only following orders.

    If F-35 is so damn amazing why are there so many other western 5th gen fighter projects like Tempest for Europe... and in Asia... the Japs and the South Koreans each have their own 5th gen design... as does Turkey...

    They have made over 800 F-35s and the thing isn't fully operational and cleared for full service capability.

    A very embarrassing situation really for the last super power...

    But they are FPV/Lancets/Geraniums... are definitely game changers and good are taking down air defence too.

    FPV/Lancets/Geraniums are not so effective from a Ukrainian perspective... the Orcs were going to get all sorts of drones from the west that was going to wipe out the Russian AD and then wipe out their ground forces too and they have failed. They were supposed to have all sorts of stealthy amazing drones and they are just pin pricks rather than decisive weapons changing the course of the war.

    They did some damage.... those cages and jammers the Russians are using are not for fun. But they haven't won the war for the little guy against the super power like some claimed they would.

    2) Helos with guns are surely stopgap not necessarily promising solution

    The Russian military intends to use its attack helicopters in an anti drone role... they have said so when talking about Mi-28 upgrades.

    3) Ansat /K-226 have been nowhere used on war theatre. For maritime protection of Sevastopol Mi-8 form Rosgvardia were used.

    Ka-226 are waiting for Russian engines and will be much smaller and lighter and cheaper to operate than Mi-8.

    You would not use Ka-226s over a combat zone agaisnt drones, you would use them in friendly harbours and waterways and over friendly airspace to chase down enemy drones and threats.

    4) Drone swarms just fly into helicopter killin it . Regardless of number of guns. Perhaps speed.cna protect if you see them far enough

    Of course they will try but against an armoured helicopter like the Mi-28NM it is going to need a rather decent armour piercing warhead to hope to do damage... we are talking a decent amount of HE... not the few hundred grammes used in the anti person models.

    This shows that regardless of whether it is a Su-35 or a F-35, manned fighter aircraft are past their use by date when the enemy has a formidable air defence system in place.

    Aircraft are going to remain necessary.... it is just that some western observers are pussies who cry with every aircraft that is lost about how such a thing is the end of the world and the people in charge must lose their jobs and be publicly flogged or some such nonsense.

    It seems there is no tolerance for the enemy not being totally incompetent.

    You can't be world tennis champion if you lose a game let alone a set to an opponent... Rolling Eyes

    It is paper rock scissors. Each item can attack another item and win but another item can attack it and win. There is no item that beats everything else as there is no item that can defeat everything else and there is no item that cannot be defeated. No modern tank can see a LMUR being fired at them from 14km away in combat conditions... but then no platform that carries LMUR can be certain it wont get shot down by an AD system hiding nearby with its systems turned off so you don't see it till they are lining you up. Your first warning you are under attack is a missile or burst of shells streaking towards you.

    They can't effectively destroy ukro air force that uses su-24 and you really think they can do shit against nato air forces with their 100 su-35 against 130 rafales, 400 typhoon, 800 f-16, 100 f-22 and now 1000 f-35.

    Yes, I do. The HATO pussies hiding behind their Orc cannon fodder are monitoring Russian air defences and advise the orcs of gaps and places they can get to to launch long range strikes. Most of the time the Orcs launch things that get shot down and often the launch platforms get shot down too. It is not a sustainable situation for Orc land but it is fatal for HATO which relies on air power for attack and defence. When HATO loses aircraft it is a double loss because it looses attack and defence potential...

    Mig-35 has a radar with 120km range against a normal fighter. R-37M is useless for it till they install that aesa with 260km range. Meteor is very well working.

    MiG-35s don't need to detect the target they are engaging, they can use target data from other platforms to engage targets at max range. In fact a common target for the MiG-35 would probably be HATO AWACS aircraft which the MiG-35 would have no problem detecting at max range if said AWACS is using its radar to look for targets.

    Other targets would include inflight refuelling tankers and transport aircraft.

    How do we know the kh-31 is excellent? If it was, then they wouldn't be using Iskander and kh-35 to target air defense sites.

    Because Su-35s operating in a bombing role carry Kh-31s with them in case an enemy radar system lights them up and engages them.

    What makes you think Kh-35 are being used against air defence sites?

    Iskander was designed from the outset to kill Patriot and HAWK and THAAD batteries, and anything defended by said batteries.

    If Iris T and patriot are that bad why Russian are not flying in Ukraine instead of developing guided glide bombs to stay 70km away from Ukraine ?

    Because they still have BUK and other capable Soviet systems around the place...

    I remember how everyone was saying russian aircraft need nothing like that because su-34 have inbuilt targeting systems that made every dumb bomb a guided one.

    Against an enemy the west normally fights like ISIS and Kurds in Syria that was and is effective, but with gliding kits giving standoff range there are too many variables for the system not to include guidance to ensure accuracy.

    What we saw was su-34 falling like moskitos and nog entering ukraine anymore. And even soviet systems were a threat to them.

    Yes, the Ghost of Kiev was picking them off like flies.... except I rather suspect more Russian aircraft have been shot down by Russian Air Defence than the Orcs have managed with Soviet or western systems. The western systems always had a low priority in the west because of the power (political) of their air forces.

    With so few western systems they closed the air space to Russia.

    The airspace is not closed and targets are destroyed deep inside Orc territory all the time.

    All your narrative went to the trash can because every day Sukhois drop hundreds of guided bombs while flying deep within the range of the Patriots.

    The Patriot systems remain safe till they open fire and then they are normally destroyed fairly quickly because they can't just pack up and move like a Soviet system...

    Trading a Patriot battery for an aircraft... the west will run out of Patriot batteries before Russia runs out of planes and missiles.

    And Patriot was used effectively to destroy many fighters inside Russia.

    And Patriot destroyed all of Saddams Scud missiles too... Rolling Eyes

    The last kill was about 10 Russians and 65 Ukrainian POWs wasn't it?

    It's been one and half year su-34 don't enter in Ukro air space. They still got losses accross the border because of patriots.

    Orc Su-24s flying with impunity and Russian Su-34s can barely get airborne before Patriot shoots them down... well we know who is winning the propaganda war don't we.

    Maybe hidden airfields or ones protected by mountains would suffice better. But overall, both sides would lose their airforces.

    Air forces are not going to play a huge role in a conflict between HATO and Russia in the open... Russian hypersonic missiles will hit serious targets in HATO countries and if that doesn't work then tactical nukes will be used to make HATO stand down.

    If they continue to escalate because that is the only direction they know then HATO territories get glassed and we will see who defends who.

    It's a stupid conversation

    Very true.

    Lots of tough talk for countries that spend over a trillion a year on defence that have already run out of artillery shells and tanks and SAMs.

    If they engaged Russian forces directly and started to lose men at the rate the Orcs are losing them the fight will not last long.

    I rather suspect a few HATO countries would rather tell their populations about how many men Russia has actually lost and how many men the Ukraine has actually lost because once the public understands this their keen wish to get involved would evaporate pretty quickly.

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    andalusia


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    Post  andalusia Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:07 am

    I want to know how does the military industrial complex operate in Russia.  In the US, it is all about profits and is corrupt.  Does it operate the same or is MIG, Sukhoi, Yak and other companies government run?

    I just saw this article which is quite interesting:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/military/70-or-more-f-35s-may-not-be-combat-capable

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    GarryB
    GarryB


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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 21, 2024 7:53 am

    AFAIK most of the companies producing weapons for the Russian military are state owned, and that the profit margin for any product is set at around 4-5%, which often makes exports attractive for the producers where they can earn a lot more... assuming they get sales approval etc.

    It is way more patriotic... oops, no it isn't. US companies are very patriotic and cover their products in flags and made in USA stickers.

    Their flag budget must be enormous...

    Still... $10,000 toilet seats don't just grow on trees... otherwise they would be organic free range and they would charge double...
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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Thu Mar 21, 2024 8:18 am

    GarryB wrote:AFAIK most of the companies producing weapons for the Russian military are state owned, and that the profit margin for any product is set at around 4-5%, which often makes exports attractive for the producers where they can earn a lot more... assuming they get sales approval etc.

    Technically speaking, the core of Russian defense business is owned by the state-owned Rostec corporation.
    They own almost 1000 different entities, some of them not even related to defense.
    It is a state inside a state, one can say.

    The other big players are usually organized as JSC - which applies to Almaz-Antei, Kalashnikov and Sozvezdye.
    All are corporations with multiple subsidiary companies.
    The question open is who owns shares Laughing
    All of those have a special status and can't be owned by non-controlled actionaries.
    Usually, some state entity ownes a golden share, or a majority of shares, just in case.
    Like the Federal Agency for State Property Management, being a subdivision of the Russiam Ministry of Economics and Development ...

    And there is an increasing share of privately owned companies who joined the stage, like Lobayev. But those operate in smaller scales and niches. Like uniforms and accessories sewing etc. I guess the drone production is heavy now with private entities.

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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Thu Mar 21, 2024 9:27 am

    The discussion about NATO and Russian aviation is nonsense. NATO has a significant advantage. This is over approximately 3,500 tactical aircraft. Russia, however, has around 700. That's five times more. In addition, Europe will have another 600 F-35s. Which gives a total of over 4,000 aircraft.

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