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    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm SPAAG

    George1
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    Post  George1 Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:46 pm

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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:03 pm

    George1 wrote:Indonesia bought the naval version. Interesting

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t5800p150-russia-indonesia-arms-contracts#326949

    Well they should have no problems installing these instead of 30mm CIWS but general results is pretty much the same once the hot led starts hitting you

    Few large ones of loads of small ones, same thing over same period of time

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    Post  LMFS Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:01 am

    Not even close, big calibers allow guided rounds with way higher efficiency against difficult targets. Even the normal air burst of such a big round is incomparably more powerful with a bigger blast radius than what 30 mm can do

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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:33 am

    LMFS wrote:Not even close, big calibers allow guided rounds with way higher efficiency against difficult targets. Even the normal air burst of such a big round is incomparably more powerful with a bigger blast radius than what 30 mm can do

    Coast Guard never deals with difficult targets, one 30mm round stopped that 404 boat dead in it's tracks

    Now imagine what 2 second burst would do

    It's enough
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    Post  Isos Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:36 am

    Well drones are spreading everywhere.

    57mm with its thermals is way better to counter them at decent range compare to ak-630.

    They could also go with naval Sosn-R. Was it called Palma or Palash ?

    Guided rounds needs prprogrammation which can break down. A burst of 30 mm can't go wrong and it create a cloud that moves towards the targets at mach 3 that can't be evaded. Both are effective.


    Last edited by Isos on Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:38 am

    Isos wrote:Well drones are spreading everywhere. ...

    If drones are in play then it's Navy's jurisdiction not Coast Guard's

    And majority of drones will get stomped by 30mm anyway
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    Post  Isos Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:41 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:Well drones are spreading everywhere. ...

    If drones are in play then it's Navy's jurisdiction not Coast Guard's

    Yeah but we are talking about a defensive weapon. It is meant to defend the ship when attacked. So if a threat shows up it can't wait for the navy ship to come.

    And drones can be used by everyone. Coast guards are a military force that uses weapons for a reason. They can't just wait for the navy.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:23 am

    30mm are cheap and are devastating against most aircraft, but against smaller targets you do have to fire a lot of rounds to assure a hit.


    Without airburst ammo the 30mm is excellent for use against helicopters and low flying aircraft, but for rather smaller targets like missiles it struggles and you will end up using enormous amounts of ammo to get hits... where the round has to make contact with the target to have any effect.

    Certainly air burst rounds that explode near the target make it much more effective against very small targets.

    If you want to stop a ship then a burst of 30mm rounds through the bridge will stop any ship in its tracks, while a few 30mm round in the water ahead of a boat can have the same effect.

    A 57mm gun extends the range it will work, and its HE rounds carry vastly more HE and fragmentation material so even heavily built targets can be damaged with air burst 57mm rounds.

    The core reason for the 57mm gun is tiny drones where airburst rounds send thousands of splinters into the airspace the drones occupy making hits certain, but also on land against IFVs with 100-150mm frontal armour can be engaged with serious APFSDS rounds that are much more powerful than the similar rounds in 30mm calibre.

    With airburst rounds I would expect 30mm weapons to continue to be used, but 57mm guns will also enter use simply for its better range and the fact that 100 x 30mm rounds probably cost more than 2-3 air burst 57mm rounds and are easier and cheaper to store.

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    Post  Hole Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:33 pm

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm SPAAG - Page 16 3uo7_310
    57mm ammo

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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:55 pm

    Hole wrote:2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm SPAAG - Page 16 3uo7_310
    57mm ammo


    Last edited by Russian_Patriot_ on Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:33 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Post  lyle6 Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:36 am

    Hole wrote:2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm SPAAG - Page 16 3uo7_310
    57mm ammo
    *Rheinmetall and Hanwha internally screaming*

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:38 am

    Not to mention makers of drones....
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    Post  lyle6 Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:Not to mention makers of drones....
    The answer to drones would be distributed low power jamming stations that can be sown like mines throughout likely UAV routes to cut communications, preferably delivered via tube or rocket artillery. The idea being, to rapidly blanket or wall off sections of the airspace that the UAVs would essentially get lost in until they eventually just run our of juice and nosedive into the earth.

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    Post  Hole Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:44 pm

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm SPAAG - Page 16 16247210
    Another angle

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    Post  lyle6 Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:50 am

    Video from where all that stuff was taken from:

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    Post  TMA1 Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:24 am

    My man! I knew those were cut away shells. Ahh now I'm just going to stare at those beauties for a sec.
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    Post  Isos Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:41 pm

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm SPAAG - Page 16 E45itl10

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm SPAAG - Page 16 E45h9s11

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm SPAAG - Page 16 E45iqw11

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    Post  Mir Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:02 pm

    I really like this SPAAG but I keep thinking they should mate this to the Sosna as another option. Also as a naval mount like the Palma but obviously 57mm.

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    Post  limb Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:12 pm

    Why is the ammo count so low? AFAIK, most of the ammo is only stored under the turret ring the turret and the derivatsiya doesnt use extra space in the hull even if the hull is spacious due to having a troop compartment.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:45 pm

    I really like this SPAAG but I keep thinking they should mate this to the Sosna as another option. Also as a naval mount like the Palma but obviously 57mm.

    The AU-220 turret is a unified land and naval turret for use on land vehicles and boats... The guns and missiles would compliment each other with missiles better for manouvering targets and guns good enough for straight and level targets and cheaper.

    They are revising SOSNA at the moment AFAIK with an increase in range to 20km which should be interesting... the PINE (ground based SOSNA) is based on an MTLB chassis but does not use a search radar which makes it much cheaper.

    It was the cost of a search radar for a gun system and a search radar for an all weather missile system that resulted in the Tunguska combination vehicle, but if only every other vehicle needs a radar then they can split them again.

    For dedicated air defence the full internal capacity of these vehicles should be able to be used for ammo.. but the rounds themselves are large... bigger than a 2.25 litre bottle of fizzy drink.

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    Post  TMA1 Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:30 pm

    Great new images of ammo for this vehicle.

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm SPAAG - Page 16 97220910

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    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:49 am

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1586932682297987072

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    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm SPAAG - Page 16 Empty Russia’s 57mm Derivatsiya-PVO AA artillery system development done

    Post  JohninMK Tue Apr 09, 2024 11:40 am


    Russia’s 57mm Derivatsiya-PVO AA artillery system development done
    By Boyko Nikolov On Apr 8, 2024

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm SPAAG - Page 16 New-Russian-anti-aircraft-complex-Derivation-will-appear-in-the-troops-in-2022

    It has officially been announced that Russia has completed the development of its 57mm anti-aircraft artillery [AAA] system, Derivatsiya-PVO. Designed specifically to neutralize drones and various aerial threats, the unveiling of this system took place on April 8, 2024. The industrial director of Rostec, a state-owned tech giant, disclosed this information as reported by the Russian news outlet, TASS.

    Rostec’s industrial director, Behan Ozdoev, elaborated, “Last year witnessed the evolution of several innovative systems. Most notably amongst these is the 57mm anti-aircraft artillery system, the Derivatsiya-PVO.” Aimed at superseding the current Shilka and Tunguska air defense systems, the Derivatsiya-PVO is expected to serve Russia’s ground forces in their tactical air defense units. It seems Rostec has all hands on deck to hasten and ensure the integration of this new system in Russia’s special military operation zone, a term used to describe Russia’s intrusion into Ukrainian territories.

    According to Behan Ozdoev, the Derivatsiya-PVO weapons will likely use 57mm fragmentation shells with regulated detonation to combat enemy offensive drones, particularly in the special military operation zone.

    The arsenal provided by the structure incorporates a combat vehicle equipped with passive techniques for reconnaissance and locating of aerial adversaries, as well as an optoelectronic detection and guiding mechanism that enables panoramic [360-degree] or sector-specific surveillance of the surroundings.

    The weaponry is composed of a 7.62 mm PKTM machine gun, alongside a remotely-controlled combat module armed with a 57 mm 2A90 automatic cannon. It has the power to obliterate air threats up to 6 km away and a maximum altitude of 4.5km. This imposing automatic cannon can unleash a staggering 120 rounds every minute. Furthermore, the apparatus’s versatility is underlined by its ability to target objects moving at a maximum speed of up to 500 meters per second.

    Complex 9T260

    The Kompleks 9T260 transport-loader is an integral feature of the Derivatsiya-PVO anti-aircraft artillery complex. With its armored cabin, body, and fuel tank, it’s indisputably built for frontline action. Its robust armor allows it to withstand incoming bullets and shrapnel with impressive resilience.

    According to Russian military experts in 2021, citing an official press release from Uralvagonzavod, “The 9T260 is based on the sturdy chassis of a fortified Ural truck, supplemented with a protective cabin, body, and fuel reservoirs. This allows the vehicle to withstand the impact of 5.45-7.62 mm caliber bullets and shrapnel pieces, some of the deadliest threats encountered on the battlefield.”

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm SPAAG - Page 16 Russias-57mm-Derivatsiya-PVO-AA-artillery-system-development-done-9t260-kompleks

    A crew of two, equipped with the necessary training, can efficiently load the vehicle’s ammo racks in approximately 20 minutes. The integration of mechanized components in the ammunition loading process from the transport-loading machine to the combat vehicle significantly streamlines the reloading time, thereby bolstering the equipment’s survivability. Notably, this system allows simultaneous ammo loading from two different transport-loading machines if needed.

    Falling behind schedule

    Due to unforeseen changes in geopolitical conflicts, particularly the war in Ukraine, Russia’s projected plan to fully implement the Derivatsiya-PVO has been deferred. Initially reported by BulgarianMilitary.com in September 2020, Moscow’s plan was to strengthen the Russian army by extensively deploying this system in 2022. However, these defense strategies had to be recalibrated due to the unexpected change in circumstances.

    The pivotal year, 2022, was first mentioned by the CEO of the Uralvagonzavod [UVZ] concern, Alexander Potapov, on September 9, 2020. He indicated at that time that preliminary testing on the air defense system had already been completed. Moreover, an experimental batch of the Derivatsiya-PVO was being prepped for deployment.

    Interestingly, the Derivatsiya-PVO was rumored to be a ground combat drone in 2020. This system was designed to host a 57mm high ballistic gun. It boasting enhanced precision, controlled by an efficient fire control system. This system was intended to blend firing data from drones and aircraft. The AA artillery is built on BMP-3 chassis. This represented a collective, networked system that had the potential to revolutionize warfare.

    https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2024/04/08/russias-57mm-derivatsiya-pvo-aa-artillery-system-development-done/

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Apr 29, 2024 4:54 pm

    Deferred?

    Sure it would be a priority given its potential cost-effectiveness against drones
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 30, 2024 6:19 am

    I rather suspect this system is part of a revision and change for air defence ground forces... they started with guns and missiles on separate platforms... ZSU-57-2 and then ZSU-23-4 and SA-9 and SA-13 missile systems and then combined the guns and the missiles on the same vehicle when it made sense to do so with the Tunguska... now the guns are too big to also carry missiles so presumably they will have a missile vehicle that operates with the 2S38, but I would also expect the Pantsir to continue operating too because some targets don't require 57mm shells to deal with... sometimes 30mm shells are good enough for the job against conventional aircraft and helicopters and larger drones.

    The 57mm gun armed system might fill a niche to take on rather small targets like drones or incoming missiles and glide bombs, and also more conventional air targets at greater ranges that normally could only be reached previously with missiles.

    If this is the case then IIR and LIDAR type sensors might be suitable to add on to the vehicle to detect the smaller drone targets.

    It is important to realise that such a vehicle is going to be a super high priority for Kiev and for the west so rushing into service because it passed some tests might be throwing it to the wolves.

    Having said that it has a role of destroying drones and so if it can't do that then what is it really for?

    I would hope testing in the conflict zone will take place... perhaps together with laser based and other systems... eventually a wheel based system on a Boomerang based platform might be interesting with that level of armour and that volume of ammo potential in the rear of the vehicle, it will be a rather interesting convoy support vehicle and also fixed target defender.

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