Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

GarryB wrote:Actually the future looks more like an air breathing jet powered craft to fly to space and back.

Once scramjets are perfected and the issues of high speed flight within the atmosphere are dealt with an aircraft that takes off horizontally and accelerates up to orbital speed inside the earth atmosphere and then lobs payloads into space to glide back down and land on a conventional air strip is the most efficient way of getting things to orbit.

Pulse detonation engines are the only ones with the necessary thermodynamic cycle characteristics. Brayton cycle engines won't cut it.
Russia is pushing pulse detonation engine development hard. But as you note, the spaceplane concept is the most efficient since it leverages
the lifting potential of the atmosphere fluid. For rockets this fluid is just a drag that reduces their efficiency.

GarryB wrote:Actually the future looks more like an air breathing jet powered craft to fly to space and back.

Once scramjets are perfected and the issues of high speed flight within the atmosphere are dealt with an aircraft that takes off horizontally and accelerates up to orbital speed inside the earth atmosphere and then lobs payloads into space to glide back down and land on a conventional air strip is the most efficient way of getting things to orbit.

High speed scramjet needs hydrogen, but that has low density- means the drag will be high.

So realistical the scramjet has quite low chance to be succesfull.

Maybe orbital drop scramjet should be more possible.

But the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylon_(spacecraft)#SABRE_engines can be interesting - but no one know that it will fly ever.
Quite complicated design, needs a lot of debuging to work.

Rmf wrote:many news and all of them bad...
like i predicted russian space program is in shambles , its a wreck , and major malfunctions and resource wastefulness is continuing on unprecedented scale. (losing customers ,paying penalties for delayed launches).
all the while usa private sector is steamrolling ahead....

Thats just what this forum needs - more spite-driven rmf fuktardishness with a big dollop of childish gloating... and ending this shit-on-Russia post with a flag emote? This indicates a serious mental health issue...

Anyhow, there are some issues but lets not exagerate too much. Proton recall is due solely to engine QA/QC issues involving incorrect brazing materials, and recalling the engines is the appropriate response. Engines will be repaired, re-installed and Protons will fly again until Angara is ready to finally replace it. Omsk manufacturing is going thru its start-up qualification & testing of initial units (yes, there are reports of faults, but thats to be expected in an all-new facility and workforce). Work has started on the Angara pad at Vostochny, & Federation is proceeding, so looks to be on track for 1st unmanned flight in 2021. Sunkar looks to be a go, so the path to a modular SHLV is becoming a reality.

Nauka is a fiasco, but it may work to Russias long term advantage. When it eventually flys, it will still be quite new when the ISS is abandoned, and will become the a core module of the replacement Russian station. It also pleases me that those feckless cunt Eurotrash bastards won't get their robot arm deployed until the ISS is about to be scrapped and Eurotrash manned space presence ends.

All in all, there are problems,but also many reasons to be optimistic. Russia has sucessfully withstood the US/EU economic sabotage and destabilisation ploys, and her economy is growing again (and is now much less vulnerable to any future Western subversion). Her space program is a logical one, and is engaged in a long-term technology and infrastructure building program which will deliver value when complete. Lack of so-called 'reuseable" technologies is hardly an issue, despite the silly PR waffle from Musk and the near-religious sycophancy exhibited by his groupies in the West, who fully expect him to walk on water and colonise Mars... It should be clear to anyone that the pace of space launches is driven by the need for payloads, and NOT by launch costs. Recovery and rebuild of spent stages won't hugely reduce prices to the extent the Muskians claim, and it would be a huge mistake to abandon Russias logical development strategy simply because of juvenile white-noise from rmf-like idiots...

What is the chance we the Ares rocket series entering production before the heaviest  angara?

While they seem just projects on paper, they could be a real dangerous competitor for the angara if they're consistently delayed over a decade Gorshkov-style. Nevertheless I hope Russia will have a competitor to the Paris by the 2030s.


There is also the dangerous competitor that is NASA's Space Launch System.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:What is the chance we the Ares rocket series entering production before the heaviest  angara?

While they seem just projects on paper, they could be a real dangerous competitor for the angara if they're consistently delayed over a decade Gorshkov-style. Nevertheless I hope Russia will have a competitor to the Paris by the 2030s.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f58/17/70/75/06/shuttl10.jpg

There is also the dangerous competitor that is NASA's Space Launch System.

Ares has been suspended for quite a long time.

NASA had just as many budget cuts as Roscosmos did. USA routinely sticks it up to their space agency, it's not just Russian thing.

Space projects are always first thing on a chopping block.

Also, Russia reached Paris back in Napoleonic era, long before USA.

PapaDragon wrote:

rmf wrote:
it cant , they are streching the design to its limits and exposing to higher risks of something going wrong....

Suffer under the power of cold data:

Max payload:

Proton - 22.800 kg

Angara 5 - 24.500 kg

Borat BTFO  

hahah, proton is cheaper per launch ,and by much.  
thats the problem , they cant bring angara launch costs down it seems.  
and its not manrated- so they will keep soyuz then its logic they will use soyuz for payloads too why not, lowering angara launch numbers.
if they used angara like you say ,roscosmos would bankrupt soo fast  
this are some fundamental problems your limited minds cant comprehend so i gave up long ago.
is that so ,then why is russia working on reusable rockets???
http://www.lii.ru/mld-tk-2015.html
https://imgur.com/vDlF0uZ
https://imgur.com/xDlJome
by the way that shit noob gazza is muted and reported.

Rmf wrote:

hahah, proton is cheaper per launch ,and by much.  
thats the problem , they cant bring angara launch costs down it seems.  
and its not manrated- so they will keep soyuz then its logic they will use soyuz for payloads too why not, lowering angara launch numbers.
if they used angara like you say ,roscosmos would bankrupt soo fast  
this are some fundamental problems your limited minds cant comprehend so i gave up long ago.
is that so ,then why is russia working on reusable rockets???

There is a manufacturing line for proton, amortised to 0 long time ago.

There is another one under construction for Angara, after the start of it the cost of the two will be practicaly the same .

Proton is cheap without considering the amortisation / development.


And as is seems the radhard CPU lines are rolling, means there will be more and more mil sat launch in the comming years.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:What is the chance we the Ares rocket series entering production before the heaviest  angara?

While they seem just projects on paper, they could be a real dangerous competitor for the angara if they're consistently delayed over a decade Gorshkov-style. Nevertheless I hope Russia will have a competitor to the Paris by the 2030s.


There is also the dangerous competitor that is NASA's Space Launch System.

Fanboi fantasy fiction. Anyone can draw a rocket. It does not mean that it will ever be built.

Also, in case you did notice from this fantasy drawing, it is the Energia V and Angara concept which
some wanker scaled up. What happened to American ingenuity and originality? And you have the
gall to bring up the Gorshkov. Sod off, troll. Russia was in no shape to do anything even as
late as 2004, thanks to Boris the Comprador. Yet you claim that Russia had the capacity in 2004
that it has now.

Rmf wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

rmf wrote:
it cant , they are streching the design to its limits and exposing to higher risks of something going wrong....

Suffer under the power of cold data:

Max payload:

Proton - 22.800 kg

Angara 5 - 24.500 kg

Borat BTFO  

hahah, proton is cheaper per launch ,and by much.  
thats the problem , they cant bring angara launch costs down it seems.  
and its not manrated- so they will keep soyuz then its logic they will use soyuz for payloads too why not, lowering angara launch numbers.
if they used angara like you say ,roscosmos would bankrupt soo fast  
..........

Hahah Proton can't even get off the ground without blowing up.

Only metric by which Proton is cheaper than Angara is the fact that you don't need to pay anything for a rocket that never gets launched. And when it does it is still waste of money because it can only launch very specific type of payload.

Also, did you conveniently forgot to add Baikonur rental fee to price of Proton launch? Yes, that goes into bottom line too and yes, I shat all over Baikonur yet again.

And remember how recently you whined about Russia losing space launch market share? Reason for that is that your precious self detonating Proton has no payload scalability.

The irony is beyond delicious.

I won't waste time commenting on your hilarious reusability fetish. But I will just add that one thing will never be reused nor even used pretty soon: Proton.

As I said, there is no need for Proton to launch satellites if Soyuz-2 can. Yeah, it isn't a heavy rocket so it cannot launch that large of a payload but for Russia and other nations, it is still desirable till Angara is launched.

kvs wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:What is the chance we the Ares rocket series entering production before the heaviest  angara?

While they seem just projects on paper, they could be a real dangerous competitor for the angara if they're consistently delayed over a decade Gorshkov-style. Nevertheless I hope Russia will have a competitor to the Paris by the 2030s.


There is also the dangerous competitor that is NASA's Space Launch System.

Fanboi fantasy fiction.   Anyone can draw a rocket.  It does not mean that it will ever be built.

Also, in case you did notice from this fantasy drawing, it is the Energia V and Angara concept which
some wanker scaled up.   What happened to American ingenuity and originality?   And you have the
gall to bring up the Gorshkov.   Sod off, troll.   Russia was in no shape to do anything even as
late as 2004, thanks to Boris the Comprador.   Yet you claim that Russia had the capacity in 2004
that it has now.

I never said that these drawings were realistic. Americans don't have ingenuity. They just have money. More money than Russia. It all comes down to who is willing to spend more money for their space programs. I'm happy that the US is currently wasting their money on the Falcon 9 vaporware(I  didn't know it was this retarded, wasting fuel to land, old fashioned parachutes and inflatable cushions are far better ideas). I hope that with a technocratic eurasianist leadership and  with an improving economy, the Russian space program can only go up.

Still, the cancellation of the kliper was an unforgivable retarded decision since it destroyed so much potential.

And you have the
gall to bring up the Gorshkov.   Sod off, troll.   Russia was in no shape to do anything even as
late as 2004, thanks to Boris the Comprador.

I'll bring it up because there are always delays that have no end since it was built in 2014. Ok, should've I have compared the angara to the F-35 then?

KomissarBojanchev wrote:
Americans don't have ingenuity. They just have money. More money than Russia.

Russia has half/third as much money as the USA.

Interesting fact, the US had only third bigger population than Russia when it done the moon program.

Putin sets task of accelerating work on super-heavy rocket

SOCHI, May 22. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin has set a task of accelerating work on a super-heavy rocket, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin told journalists on Monday after a government meeting on the space industry development.
"We looked at a serious perspective - a perspective of developing a super-heavy-class rocket," he said. "The president set a task for Roscosmos [Russia’s state space corporation] to accelerate work by means of developing the technologies presented by general designers."

According to Rogozin, the government has approved a plan of further use of the Baikonur spaceport, which will be discussed in Kazakhstan within days. "We plan to immediately start work on a medium-class rocket that would be competitive with the United States’ latest developments on the commercial services market," he said, adding that this rocket will have a carrying capacity of 17 tonnes.
Apart from that, in his words, it is planned to use Baikonur’s launching pad for Zenit rockets. He said this work will be part of the plan for the development of a super-heavy-class rocket and stressed the importance of large-scale cooperation with
Kazakhstan

http://tass.com/science/947004

It wasnt clear in the article where this new Heavy rocket will be launched from but I certainly hope its designed for the new Vostochny Cosmodrome and not Baikonur, unless Kazakhstan becomes part of RF.

Project Canada wrote:

Putin sets task of accelerating work on super-heavy rocket

SOCHI, May 22. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin has set a task of accelerating work on a super-heavy rocket, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin told journalists on Monday after a government meeting on the space industry development.
"We looked at a serious perspective - a perspective of developing a super-heavy-class rocket," he said. "The president set a task for Roscosmos [Russia’s state space corporation] to accelerate work by means of developing the technologies presented by general designers."

According to Rogozin, the government has approved a plan of further use of the Baikonur spaceport, which will be discussed in Kazakhstan within days. "We plan to immediately start work on a medium-class rocket that would be competitive with the United States’ latest developments on the commercial services market," he said, adding that this rocket will have a carrying capacity of 17 tonnes.
Apart from that, in his words, it is planned to use Baikonur’s launching pad for Zenit rockets. He said this work will be part of the plan for the development of a super-heavy-class rocket and stressed the importance of large-scale cooperation with
Kazakhstan  

http://tass.com/science/947004

It wasnt clear in the article where this new Heavy rocket will be launched from but I certainly hope its designed for the new Vostochny Cosmodrome and not Baikonur, unless Kazakhstan becomes part of RF.

The heavy launcher will be based on modules that are Zenit replacements. The so-called Sunkar will be launched from Kazakhstan and it seems that they want
they heavy launcher to go there as well. But you are right, it is a retarded idea. They need to invest the money in Russia to build the launch pad at Vostochny.

No way they will use Baikonur for super heavy, it would be beyond humiliating

Kazakhstan is shelling out cash to finance Sunkar in order to not be completely dumped once they get rid of Proton but super heavy derivative (and Sunkar itself) will be launched from Vostochny, especially the manned version

Federation is designed to be used from Vostochny, Angara as well

Kazakhs will get to have cargo Sunkar and Soyuz (until it's retired)

Going with manned missions from Kazakhstan would be detrimental to Putin's reputation (one time that ego is actually useful)

What is the point of all these programs?  Couldn't they use the Soyuz-2 for most satellite launches and just continue to advance the Angara line of rockets?  Or is this a quick solution to lack of Zenit and Proton failing? Sorry, I am not familiar with the space rocket systems and all these different programs.

miketheterrible wrote:What is the point of all these programs?  Couldn't they use the Soyuz-2 for most satellite launches and just continue to advance the Angara line of rockets?  Or is this a quick solution to lack of Zenit and Proton failing?  Sorry, I am not familiar with the space rocket systems and all these different programs.

Angara is not powerful enough for beyond earth orbit missions and even with super heavy (1xSunkar+4xAngara) it will take two launches to reach the Moon (in orbit assembly)

Alternative is one massive rocket like NASA SLS but that one will be over billion bucks per launch for one launch per year

This is not new program, super heavy is extension of Angara series

And this time Kazakhstan might actually contribute instead of threatening to kick Russia out of Baikonur (not that they will be allowed to keep manned launches anyway)

It also keeps them obedient for a change

Time they finally learn that nobody is irreplaceable

When do we expect to see this rocket come into effect?

miketheterrible wrote:When do we expect to see this rocket come into effect?

Federation will be super heavy rocket's primary payload so it should roughly be in 2030 when Federation gets into service (it is planned to fly in mid 2020s)

Also, launchpad for Angara is due to be completed by 2025. All three projects are tightly connected and have similar timeframe. So this new rocket should be going right after them in 2030.

However, depending on how much money and effort they invest into it, you could see Sunkar core stage fly from Baikonur in cargo version before 2030 but that is less likely because they have no reason to rush it. But its still doable theoretically.

Spektr-UV launch delayed by couple of years due to budget

http://tass.ru/kosmos/4272826


Preliminary design of the Phoenix rocket will be completed in 2017

http://tass.ru/kosmos/4270864







Rogozin does not consider it necessary to duplicate the functions of the cosmodromes Baikonur and Vostochny

http://tass.ru/kosmos/4271791

The Deputy Prime Minister noted that minimization of all possible risks occurs due to involvement in the overall work

SOCHI, May 22. / TASS /. Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin does not consider it necessary to duplicate the functions of Baikonur and Vostochny cosmodromes. He said this on the results of the meeting on the development of the space industry.

"Of course, you can spend hundreds of billions of rubles on the East to do the same, but it seems to us that minimization of all kinds of risks is due to involvement in the overall work and such mutual understanding between us and Kazakhstani colleagues is already present," Rogozin said.

The Deputy Prime Minister noted that when making decisions to transfer launches from the Baikonur cosmodrome to the Eastern one, it is necessary, on the one hand, to count money, especially in the conditions of application of sanctions and the existence of economic problems. "On the other hand, if today there is an interest of our traditional partners like Kazakhstan, which is ready to invest in big money in joint projects with Russia, thus gaining experience and the status of a space country ... why not, why from This should be abandoned? " Rogozin asked rhetorically.

He recalled that at the same time all the programs planned for the spaceport will be implemented. In particular, by 2021 the launch of the Angara missile should be carried out. After 2025, Russia will have to ensure the launch of the Angara with a hydrogen block. "Of course, the adjustment of certain of our plans for the East will arise, first of all, at the expense of Kazakhstan's partner proposal and the logic of actions that will save money, and simultaneously start parallel creation of new withdrawal facilities," Rogozin concluded.

 Can someone who speaks Russian elaborate on this, especially the bolded part?

Looks to me like they are letting them go gently with Sunkar as peace offering but they could also be back to sucking that Kazakh cock again...  

PapaDragon wrote:
Spektr-UV launch delayed by couple of years due to budget

http://tass.ru/kosmos/4272826


Preliminary design of the Phoenix rocket will be completed in 2017

http://tass.ru/kosmos/4270864







Rogozin does not consider it necessary to duplicate the functions of the cosmodromes Baikonur and Vostochny

http://tass.ru/kosmos/4271791

The Deputy Prime Minister noted that minimization of all possible risks occurs due to involvement in the overall work

SOCHI, May 22. / TASS /. Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin does not consider it necessary to duplicate the functions of Baikonur and Vostochny cosmodromes. He said this on the results of the meeting on the development of the space industry.

"Of course, you can spend hundreds of billions of rubles on the East to do the same, but it seems to us that minimization of all kinds of risks is due to involvement in the overall work and such mutual understanding between us and Kazakhstani colleagues is already present," Rogozin said.

The Deputy Prime Minister noted that when making decisions to transfer launches from the Baikonur cosmodrome to the Eastern one, it is necessary, on the one hand, to count money, especially in the conditions of application of sanctions and the existence of economic problems. "On the other hand, if today there is an interest of our traditional partners like Kazakhstan, which is ready to invest in big money in joint projects with Russia, thus gaining experience and the status of a space country ... why not, why from This should be abandoned? " Rogozin asked rhetorically.

He recalled that at the same time all the programs planned for the spaceport will be implemented. In particular, by 2021 the launch of the Angara missile should be carried out. After 2025, Russia will have to ensure the launch of the Angara with a hydrogen block. "Of course, the adjustment of certain of our plans for the East will arise, first of all, at the expense of Kazakhstan's partner proposal and the logic of actions that will save money, and simultaneously start parallel creation of new withdrawal facilities," Rogozin concluded.

 Can someone who speaks Russian elaborate on this, especially the bolded part?

Looks to me like they are letting them go gently with Sunkar as peace offering but they could also be back to sucking that Kazakh cock again...  

It looks like the someone in the Kazakh regime is starting to get the clue that Russia is ready to cut these leeches loose. So they
are engaged in hot air promises of "big" expenditures to secure the Kazakh space capacity. Coming from these clowns who tried
to extort money from Russia like Banderastan to run Bikanur, I call foul. They are not credible and I hope that Rogozin, Putin, et al.
do not get suckered into the partnership BS.

Vostochny must have put the fear of God in these f*ckers. Now they are promising Russia the Moon.

kvs wrote:............

It looks like the someone in the Kazakh regime is starting to get the clue that Russia is ready to cut these leeches loose.  So they
are engaged in hot air promises of "big" expenditures to secure the Kazakh space capacity.   Coming from these clowns who tried
to extort money from Russia like Banderastan to run Bikanur, I call foul.   They are not credible and I hope that Rogozin, Putin, et al.
do not get suckered into the partnership BS.  

Vostochny must have put the fear of God in these f*ckers.   Now they are promising Russia the Moon.  

If Kazakhs want to keep that spaceport in use then they can start with foregoing all rental fees, completely refurbishing entire facility, cleaning up surrounding area (because it looks like garbage dump), fully financing R&D of Sunkar rocket and paying their fair share of day to day expenses.

Of course, this should get them Soyuz and Sunkar. No manned spacecraft beyond stock Soyuz.

Once Federation, Angara and Fenix super heavy are up and running then it has to be Vostochny all the way.

Kazaks can get their fair share of cargo traffic provided they contribute. But that is it. Besides, who knows when will they change their mind again and start with usual BS again. And who can guarantee that regime in Kazakhstan will stay same or friendly?

Playing safe and smart is the way to go.

SOCHI, May 22. / TASS /. Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin sees no need to duplicate the functions of Baikonur and Vostochny. He said this after the meeting on the development of the space industry.

"Of course, you can spend hundreds of billions of rubles on the East to do the same, but it seems to us that the minimization of possible risks is due to involvement in the overall work and a mutual understanding we have with the Kazakh colleagues already present", - Rogozin said.

deputy chairman of the Government noted that in deciding to postpone the launch from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in the East, it is necessary, on the one hand to count the money, especially in the application of sanctions and the existence of economic problems. "On the other hand, if today there is an interest of our traditional partners such as Kazakhstan, which is ready to invest in including a lot of money in joint projects with Russia, thereby acquiring and experience, and the status of the space of the country ... why not, why on this is necessary to give up? " - asked rhetorically Rogozin.

He recalled that at the same time for all the planned Vostochny cosmodrome program will be implemented. In particular, the launch of "Angara" rocket to be implemented by 2021. After 2025, Russia will provide the launch of the "Angara" with a hydrogen unit. "Of course, the adjustment of certain of our Eastern plans will occur primarily through a partnership proposal by Kazakhstan and the logic of action that will allow both to save money and at the same time start the parallel development of new launch vehicles", - Rogozin concluded.

My impression with Rogozin's statement about "no need to duplicate Baikonur’s functions" is that Vostochny will Not be developed further to Replace Baikonur as Russia's main spaceport..,
I really wish that I am wrong, because slowing down or even completely halting Vostochny's primary purpose (replace Baikonur) is absolutely stupid. Russia already invested gigantic amount of resources into that project and then suddenly they will stop the momentum just because Kazakhstan is suddenly offering something sweet? Its all Crap. Russia's main spaceport should be Within its national territory. So unless Kazakhstan agrees to join the Russian Federation, work on Vostochny must continue with much needed pace.