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franco
JohninMK
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william.boutros
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Cyberspec
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    Security of Russian air bases

    Cyberspec
    Cyberspec


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    Post  Cyberspec Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:19 am

    GarryB wrote:
    But yeah, only deal with the problem when you encounter it. Never think ahead. Shopping mall burned down in Kemerovo with 70 people dead - hmmm time to think about enforcing fire codes. Ammo dump blew up spectacularly, hmm time to think about basic safety standards and training. Planes on the tarmac got damaged with some home-made UAVs dropping explosives - yes, time to think about a roof over their heads. Modern day Russia in a nutshell.

    All very valid criticisms, but I would say a human problem rather than just blaming Russia.

    The ironic thing is, if they start sending government inspectors around the country to clamp down hard on every violation, I'm willing to bet people will be complaining about how authoritarian and bureaucratic the government is
    Kimppis
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    Post  Kimppis Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:54 am

    If I remember correctly, it was mentioned a few years ago in some article that they would start constructing shelters from around 2020 onwards. The article was probably shared on this very forum. So it was "always" the plan, at least for the most part. Different priorities, I guess. dunno

    And that's fair criticism (when I'm not reading it from anti-Russian sources), but incidents like Kemerovo are actually statistically much less common now than even 10 years ago. That's also modern Russia in a nutshell.
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    william.boutros


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    Post  william.boutros Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:18 pm

    Isos wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1177640891877675008

    Russian building hangar shelters similar to those in Syria in its manland bases for its fighters.

    They clearly saw the danger of small improvised suicide drone against airport. They can easily destroy main airforces assets in mater of hours. Bad perf of pantsir are also playing in this decision IMO.

    That is just silly. These are sandwich panels and they cannot stop a hard kick let alone a bomb.
    They can conceal and protect from the elements.
    medo
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    Post  medo Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:30 pm



    Now Russuan army build shelters for helicopters in Hmeimim and they will be finnished in November. Now they confirm, that shelters have two layers of armor plates to protect against drones and mortar mines. I hope RuAF will now start to intensively build such shelters in their airbases in Russia as well.

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    limb


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    Security of Russian air bases  - Page 3 Empty Russian military hangars

    Post  limb Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:11 pm

    Is there any info on how common hangars that protect from the weather are in russian military airports? I've read here that in general russians always keep their aircraft parked outside, no matter what the elements are, and this has shortened the airframe lifetime of many relatively recently built aircraft(for example Tu-22s and Tu-95s built in the 70s and 80s). If this is true, why is that? I do know however that during the cold War many Warsaw pact airfields did have earthen mound hangars.

    Also general military airport infrastructure thread.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:16 pm

    Their hangars are useless. Soviet build them for mig-21 and mig-23 size fighters and now sukhois can't fit inside.

    They need to build new ones because we saw how nasty small suicide drones are and hangars will perfectly protect from them.

    Idk if they have started to build new ones.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:19 pm

    General point. In English hangers tend to be largish buildings used mainly for maintenance. The structures used to house individual or a couple of aircraft are shelters, as in Hardened Aircraft Shelters or HAS. Back in the day they were concrete covered with earth until it was realised that the earth, whilst good camouflage, stopped a bomb from bouncing off.

    The RuAF in Syria had their aircraft out in the open but most, not the QRA aircraft, are now in a continuous line of concrete shelters.

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    limb


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    Post  limb Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:15 am

    Isos wrote:Their hangars are useless. Soviet build them for mig-21 and mig-23 size fighters and now sukhois can't fit inside.

    They need to build new ones because we saw how nasty small suicide drones are and hangars will perfectly protect from them.

    Idk if they have started to build new ones.
    Why don't russian bombers have hangars,especially in the cold salty and humid subarctic and arctic environments?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:10 am

    If you can attack aircraft sitting beside a runway 5,000km in the middle of nowhere then you can probably reach hardened hangars on the same airfield...

    The west has big shelters for their planes because they need air conditioning and other comforts to operate properly... the cost of putting all their aircraft into special shelters would cost more than some of their planes.

    Not saying it is a bad thing per say, but it costs money with no direct immediate benefit... hangars are present for maintenance and disassembly and upgrades and overhauls are not done on operational airfields anyway...

    In a war zone with the threat of enemy attack Pantsir or TOR batteries would be more valuable to protect the aircraft than many types of shelter.

    Note the S-13 122mm calibre air launched rocket is designed specifically to penetrate an aircraft shelter and explode inside destroying any aircraft inside... as standard they are carried in five shot rocket pods for the job.

    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-systems/air-to-air-missile/s-13-t/

    The same rocket can also be used against runways and hardened bunkers and HQs etc...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:12 am

    Drones, atgm, missiles/bombs that explode nearby, rockets... plenty of threats it can protect from. Of course a direct hit by a missile will go through.

    Why don't russian bombers have hangars,especially in the cold salty and humid subarctic and arctic environments?

    Idk.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:39 pm

    Security of Russian air bases  - Page 3 EjyeTAsWoAMlN7p?format=png&name=large

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    franco
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    Security of Russian air bases  - Page 3 Empty Opening the meeting, the Minister of Defense proposed to start work with the consideration of the construction of shelters for aircraft.

    Post  franco Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:15 pm

    Opening the meeting, the Minister of Defense proposed to start work with the consideration of the construction of shelters for aircraft.

    "In accordance with the Plan for the development of the airfield network, it is planned to build more than 300 shelters. This will ensure the deployment of advanced aviation systems, including fifth-generation aircraft. The creation of shelters is synchronized with the supply of aircraft to the troops, " the head of the military department said.

    According to Sergei Shoigu, the facilities will ensure the camouflage of aircraft from satellite surveillance, its protection from climatic factors and fire exposure, and improve the working conditions of engineering personnel.

    NOTE: this has been a common question here

    Full article: https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12357086@egNews

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    jaguar_br


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    Post  jaguar_br Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:43 am

    franco wrote:Opening the meeting, the Minister of Defense proposed to start work with the consideration of the construction of shelters for aircraft.

    "In accordance with the Plan for the development of the airfield network, it is planned to build more than 300 shelters. This will ensure the deployment of advanced aviation systems, including fifth-generation aircraft. The creation of shelters is synchronized with the supply of aircraft to the troops, " the head of the military department said.

    According to Sergei Shoigu, the facilities will ensure the camouflage of aircraft from satellite surveillance, its protection from climatic factors and fire exposure, and improve the working conditions of engineering personnel.

    NOTE: this has been a common question here

    Full article:  https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12357086@egNews

    Quite late, but they finally finded out the importance of protect and cover the fighter aircrafts, against the wether as well as foreign satelital imaging.

    Maybe thats a learning from the operation in Syria (Khmeimim), where they covered the aircraft lots used by Su-35, Su-30, and others.

    300 shelters are enough to cover almost all the recent Sukhoi aircraft. But not enough when counting Mig-31, Su-24/25 and others. VKS needs for such structures is much higher, specially when including the helicopters.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:11 am


    Well fu¢king finally, 50 years late to the party but still...
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:39 am

    I believe it's for the most recent and vital Jets will get the shelter.

    Su-24's, MiG-29's and the like won't get them or get basic tent like shelter to protect from weather. Which is fine. MiG-31's may get them as well I presume (they are based in the north afterall).

    Now I wonder though, are there any existing, in use, underground Airforce based in Russia? Like what is used in Serbia back in the day?
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:30 am

    Thousands of HAS´s were built in the 50´s and 60´s, most of them in eastern europe, but also a lot around Russia.

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    The planes in the open are at the flightline, ready to start any minute. There are hangars for maintenance and for larger planes there are dispersal areas.


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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:30 pm

    Most likely a case that the new stealth technology being used in their newest aircraft and drones probably don't like being left out in a Russian winter all night... not to mention the batteries inside the avionics of the aircraft probably don't like the cold either.
    franco
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    Post  franco Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:41 pm

    Hole wrote:Thousands of HAS´s were built in the 50´s and 60´s, most of them in eastern europe, but also a lot around Russia.

    Security of Russian air bases  - Page 3 001129

    The planes in the open are at the flightline, ready to start any minute. There are hangars for maintenance and for larger planes there are dispersal areas.



    There are a few bases with these however most of the present Russian airbases seem to have the 2 or 3 blast walls open air storage unit with a 1-2 plane maintenance hanger somewhere on the base. Chernigovka in the East has these for their Su-25's although most seem to be parked out in front like this photo.
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    gbu48098


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    Post  gbu48098 Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:Most likely a case that the new stealth technology being used in their newest aircraft and drones probably don't like being left out in a Russian winter all night... not to mention the batteries inside the avionics of the aircraft probably don't like the cold either.

    You may be correct, you were not so kind with words when it was F-22 but anyway 5th gen are as fragile as they get. With all this stealth planes in the air, they should run into each other and drop dead!
    Finty
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    Post  Finty Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:01 pm

    Hole wrote:Thousands of HAS´s were built in the 50´s and 60´s, most of them in eastern europe, but also a lot around Russia.

    Security of Russian air bases  - Page 3 001129

    The planes in the open are at the flightline, ready to start any minute. There are hangars for maintenance and for larger planes there are dispersal areas.



    Quite a lot still survive as part of the bases used by the Soviets in the former East Germany.

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    Finty
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    Post  Finty Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:06 pm

    gbu48098 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Most likely a case that the new stealth technology being used in their newest aircraft and drones probably don't like being left out in a Russian winter all night... not to mention the batteries inside the avionics of the aircraft probably don't like the cold either.

    You may be correct, you were not so kind with words when it was F-22 but anyway 5th gen are as fragile as they get. With all this stealth planes in the air, they should run into each other and drop dead!

    The Americans are managing ok with 5th gen in cold weather as they've had the raptors at Elmendorf for several years and now building the two squadrons of F35As at Eilson. They've got heated hangars but can only be left open for 30 mins at a time or else the heating equipment will break.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:21 pm

    The F-22 has all the worlds free media as well as Hollywood broadcasting its virtues and amazing performance... I don't need to add to that.

    I don't really care much for western planes and aircraft.
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    Post  Finty Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:The F-22 has all the worlds free media as well as Hollywood broadcasting its virtues and amazing performance... I don't need to add to that.

    I don't really care much for western planes and aircraft.

    Well people should. Western and Russian aircraft are like yin and yang, the whole point is you can’t have one without the other.
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    Post  11E Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:29 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    MechanizedOne wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    Covert Sabotage at an airforce base with round the clock patrols, cameras and sensors?

    You are aware it isn't easy to just break into a base like that without being noticed, right?  They are rather outside living areas so it would be rather easy to spot someone approaching, day or night.

    And also dead in middle of Russia too right?

    Please guys, stop playing Call of Duty.

    Actually in the late eighties/early nineties it was very easy to get to the planes and helicopters of the Soviet/Russian air force and army Aviation. Fences were just concrete poles with some rusty barbed wire with some parts none-existent because people living on the base used it as short cut to walk on/off the base. We did the same and it was possible to get to the Mi-24s and Mi-8s, note down the construction numbers or in case of Mi-8s, open the sealed hatches on the back and read the number on the inside. On Grossenhain (a MiG-27 base) we managed to get unnoticed in the maintenance hangar and note the last five digits in of the construction number in the wheel well.

    Within the aircraft spotting community were I came from only Mahlwinkel (Mi-24s and Mi-8s) and Rangsdorf (helicopter maintenance) was considered tricky. Even Sperenberg with the Il-20 and Il-22 det. over there was easy. One of the first pics made in East Germany of this aircraft published in Janes was made at the dispersal were the aircraft was parked. I know, because I stood about 2 meters away from the guy who took the picture. No guard of whatsoever.

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    Here we got arrested at Sperenberg. After a few hours we were good to go. The guy in the blue jacket took the pic of the ELINT Coot.

    It amazes me until this day that they were so relaxed with security. Sometimes you encountered the guard patrol, most of the time they were more interested in our car, cigarettes etc. Even the higher officers. One time we were asked to wait so that some high ranking officers could come to see us. Afraid of being arrested we waited, when they finally arrived they asked, to our amazement, if we could start the car, open the hood and rev the engine. After some chit chat about the car we could go Shocked

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    Noting down the 13 digit numbers indicating type etc at Mahlwinkel in the early morning

    I can imagine that with all the camera surveillance and electronic gadgets security is improved.

    I was still young back then and thinking back it was a dangerous game that could go wrong. In the years before the shot an US Major who approached some sheds with tanks in it at a training area.

    But boy, we had fun back then.

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    Post  11E Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:32 pm

    All this was in the DDR and later on former DDR.  The DDR army and air force had better security. In Poland, Chechoslovakia and Hungary it ws even more easy.

    When they pulled back to Russia they organised most of the times a farewell party and I have to admit, those Russians are among the most friendly people I met!

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    BTW it was Templin-Gross Dolln, a Su-17M4 base in March 1994

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