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    nastle77

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    Post  nastle77 Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:44 am

    Does anybody know how many S-300 launchers were operational at the end of the cold war in the late 80s ?
    I have read number of 80 - 85 launchers but it did not list a source ( it was the "essential weapon identification guide" series)
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    Post  Viktor Thu May 26, 2016 8:40 pm

    nastle77 wrote:Does anybody know how many S-300 launchers were operational at the end of the cold war in the late 80s ?
    I have read number of 80 - 85 launchers but it did not list a source ( it was the "essential weapon identification guide" series)

    1500-2000 launchers or 200 - 250 operational baterries - that includes S-300V and S-300P series.
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    Soviet Air Defence Forces (PVO) Empty Could the PVO have destroyed massed XB-70 attacks in the early 60s?

    Post  KomissarBojanchev Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:40 am

    That is lets say 4 years before the MiG-25 finished testing. Lets say the US procured around 150 XB-70s , and 80 of them go on a massed nuclear attack at Mach 3 against the USSR at around 17000m. Are there any soviet fighters and missiles that could've reliably destroyed them? And don't tell me about MAD, I'm specifically asking if the USSR could destroy XB-70s, not if they could retaliate.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:31 am

    Do you think if they could they might not have cancelled them (XB-70s) in the first place?

    If they had managed to build 150 B-70s then they would not have needed the Vietnam war to spend all that excess money they had...

    Flying high and straight is no way to penetrate an enemy air defence network... they do communicate with each other via radio so approaching over the north pole means all Soviet airfields would be alerted and all SAM sites would also be alerted.

    They only ended up building one or two and one managed to crash into a chase plane... they tested them through the 1960s so the very idea they might have a viable force of 150 aircraft in the 1960s is a joke.

    From wiki:

    At two secret meetings on 16 and 18 November 1959, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Twining, recommended the Air Force's plan for the B-70 to reconnoiter and strike rail-mobile Soviet ICBMs, but the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, General White, admitted the Soviets would "be able to hit the B-70 with rockets" and requested the B-70 be downgraded to "a bare minimum research and development program" at $200 million for fiscal year 1960. President Eisenhower responded that the reconnaissance and strike mission was "crazy" since the nuclear mission was to attack known production and military complexes, and emphasized that he saw no need for the B-70 since the ICBM is "a cheaper, more effective way of doing the same thing". Eisenhower also identified that the B-70 would not be in manufacturing until "eight to ten years from now" and "said he thought we were talking about bows and arrows at a time of gunpowder when we spoke of bombers in the missile age"


    So even the US didn't think they could get B-70s operational till the 1970s and even in 1960s thought they would be vulnerable to SAMs.
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    Soviet Air Defence Forces (PVO) Empty During the cold war, how did the soviets plan to use their various kind of SAMs? their tactics

    Post  nastle77 Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:40 pm

    During the cold war, how did the soviets plan to use their various kind of SAMs? their tactics
    Is there any article /book in english that covers this ?
    e.g were SA-4 only at a divisional level
    SA-6 and SA-8 at battalion level accompanying mobile units
    SA-9 and SA-7 with mechanized  infantry
    and the SA-5 /SA-10 defended strategic sites only like rocket and airbases etc

    any info is appreciated
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:30 am

    Different branches had different SAM types and different focuses.

    The PVO strany or air defence forces were tasked with defending all of Soviet airspace... a pretty tall order of course due to the size and low population density of lots of areas.

    The Army and Navy used different systems and were mainly interested in controlling the airspace above their forces at any one time.

    The SA-1, SA-2, SA-3 and SA-5 were large fixed systems with no mobility in missiles or radar.

    The SA-4 and SA-6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21, and 22 were mobile and able to fire from short stops.

    Different systems had different battle management setups, which could control groups of missiles and manage engagements.
    Later systems tended to net in smaller systems to defend the larger systems from attack while the large system destroyed the aircraft launching the attack, the smaller systems would defend against any munitions fired.
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    Post  nastle77 Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:48 pm

    Can you recommend a good source in English language that goes over the organization and the deployment of the different surface-to-air missile systems of the Soviet era
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    Post  franco Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:03 pm

    nastle77 wrote:Can you recommend a good source in English language that goes over the organization and the deployment of the different surface-to-air missile systems of the Soviet era

    See if this helps... http://www.ausairpower.net/sams-iads.html
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    Post  nastle77 Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:19 am

    Thanks a lot
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    Post  nastle77 Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:07 am

    During the latter half of cold war, the soviet airforces had the problems of

    Fighters dependent of GCI

    Fighters esp mig-21 and mig-29 short ranged

    few AWACS

    so did they develop any mobile GCI radars that could keep up with these fighters ? esp if they considered offensive operations and the frontal aviation fighters were supposed to keep pace with changing frontline ?

    Thanks
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:21 am

    During the latter half of cold war, the soviet airforces had the problems of

    Fighters dependent of GCI

    Hahahahaha.... yeah... those poor fighter pilots having someone tell them where to fly to to intercept their targets efficiently and quickly so they don't even have to turn on their on radars and give away their presence.

    PVO aircraft used GCI support to intercept threats.

    Fighters esp mig-21 and mig-29 short ranged

    They were short ranged fighters... they flew to an interception point and launched missiles and then returned to base.

    They were not short ranged for their mission.

    few AWACS

    They had an extensive ground network of mobile radars including those attached to SAM batteries, and other sensors.

    AWACS were just to fill the gaps.

    so did they develop any mobile GCI radars that could keep up with these fighters ? esp if they considered offensive operations and the frontal aviation fighters were supposed to keep pace with changing frontline ?

    They had a wide range of mobile radar sets including those associated with major SAM sites.

    In empty siberia up to four MiG-31s could link radars to cover a front over 1,100km wide where targets could be detected... including very low flying threats.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:23 am

    It is funny that so many in the west like to suggest GCI is bad, but it was good enough to defend Britain, and modern NATO forces use Air control intercept with a guy in an AWACS aircraft in the air instead of in a van on the ground.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:53 am

    GarryB wrote:It is funny that so many in the west like to suggest GCI is bad, but it was good enough to defend Britain, and modern NATO forces use Air control intercept with a guy in an AWACS aircraft in the air instead of in a van on the ground.

    HATOstani mockery of GCI is usually based on the 1982 air war in Lebanons Bekaa Valley where Western conventional wisdom is that GCI was the leading cause of the one-sided Turkey shoot. The reality is that Soviet export-grade MiG radars were compromised by turncoats within the Soviet MIC who sold out the specs allowing the Zionistanis to develop effective jammers. Syrian pilots found themselves blinded and their radar-guided AAMs wouldn't work.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:14 pm

    Austin wrote:I see USN latest Haykye AWACS uses S band radar and they mention its Anti-Stealth properties.

    So both L and S band are good for LO targets.

    Hawkeye use UHF band. Not S. The one using S-band is E-3 Sentry.
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    Post  nastle77 Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    During the latter half of cold war, the soviet airforces had the problems of

    Fighters dependent of GCI

    Hahahahaha.... yeah... those poor fighter pilots having someone tell them where to fly to to intercept their targets efficiently and quickly so they don't even have to turn on their on radars and give away their presence.

    PVO aircraft used GCI support to intercept threats.

    Fighters esp mig-21 and mig-29 short ranged

    They were short ranged fighters... they flew to an interception point and launched missiles and then returned to base.

    They were not short ranged for their mission.

    few AWACS

    They had an extensive ground network of mobile radars including those attached to SAM batteries, and other sensors.

    AWACS were just to fill the gaps.

    so did they develop any mobile GCI radars that could keep up with these fighters ? esp if they considered offensive operations and the frontal aviation fighters were supposed to keep pace with changing frontline ?

    They had a wide range of mobile radar sets including those associated with major SAM sites.

    In empty siberia up to four MiG-31s could link radars to cover a front over 1,100km wide where targets could be detected... including very low flying threats.

    so in many ways the soviet system was more efficent as

    1- individual fighters did not have to turn on their radars until the last minute

    2- deeper integration of SAM with interceptors

    3-More situaltional awareness than western fighters despite them having more modern radars generally ( unless they are supported by AWACS)

    but will this also be the case in offensive operations by VVS ? e.g in East germany 16th AA has great radar support but how will they provide radar GCI when they are operating over west germany ? did the GCI radars were road mobile and can move with the fighter bases ?
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    Post  nastle77 Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:16 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    GarryB wrote:It is funny that so many in the west like to suggest GCI is bad, but it was good enough to defend Britain, and modern NATO forces use Air control intercept with a guy in an AWACS aircraft in the air instead of in a van on the ground.

    HATOstani mockery of GCI is usually based on the 1982 air war in Lebanons Bekaa Valley where Western conventional wisdom is that GCI was the leading cause of the one-sided Turkey shoot.  The reality is that Soviet export-grade MiG radars were compromised by turncoats within the Soviet MIC who sold out the specs allowing the Zionistanis to develop effective jammers.  Syrian pilots found themselves blinded and their radar-guided AAMs wouldn't work.

    was this situation corrected by 1989 ? were the soviet radars in a better shape by then ?
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:57 am


    but will this also be the case in offensive operations by VVS ? e.g in East germany 16th AA has great radar support but how will they provide radar GCI when they are operating over west germany ? did the GCI radars were road mobile and can move with the fighter bases ?

    The Soviet air defence force (PVO component of the Air Force) of the time was focussed on defending Soviet air space.

    The Soviet Army had its own separate air defence forces in the shape of SAM systems, while the Frontal Aviation branch of the Soviet Air force would also move with the Army and provide air support.

    Mobile Soviet military forces would be well protected in a way western military forces are not.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:30 am

    nastle77 wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    GarryB wrote:It is funny that so many in the west like to suggest GCI is bad, but it was good enough to defend Britain, and modern NATO forces use Air control intercept with a guy in an AWACS aircraft in the air instead of in a van on the ground.

    HATOstani mockery of GCI is usually based on the 1982 air war in Lebanons Bekaa Valley where Western conventional wisdom is that GCI was the leading cause of the one-sided Turkey shoot.  The reality is that Soviet export-grade MiG radars were compromised by turncoats within the Soviet MIC who sold out the specs allowing the Zionistanis to develop effective jammers.  Syrian pilots found themselves blinded and their radar-guided AAMs wouldn't work.

    was this situation corrected by 1989 ? were the soviet radars in a better shape by then ?

    I suspect the situation improved greatly once Soviet intelligence fingered the mole (Adolph Tolkachev at Phazotron). With a name like Adolph, you'd think he would have been easy to sniff out... Laughing
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    Post  George1 Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:35 am

    In 1989 the Antiaircraft Rocket Troops manned 12,000 strategic surface-to-air missile launchers at 1,400 sites inside the Soviet Union. These forces were organized into brigades of launch battalions. Soviet SA-3 and SA-5 antiaircraft missiles, first produced in the 1960s, together with older SA-1 and SA-2 missiles, constituted over 90 percent of the Soviet surface-to-air missile inventory. In the late 1980s, the new SA-10 was entering service to replace SA-1 and SA-2 missiles.

    By the mid-1990s the missile forces were equipped with approximately 2,500 launchers deployed in about 250 different sites around the country. Air defense forces have particular responsibility for defending administrative and industrial centers; for instance, they surround Moscow with about 100 missile launchers. The missile troops were equipped with about 150 SA-2 Guideline, 100 SA-3 Goa, 500 SA-5 Gammon, and 1,750 SA-10 Grumble missile launchers. A program to replace all of the older systems with the SA-10, well under way by 1996, has been considered by experts to be one of the most successful reequipment programs of the post-Soviet armed forces.

    https://fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/agency/pvo.htm
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    Post  Labrador Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:37 am

    nastle77 wrote:During the cold war, how did the soviets plan to use their various kind of SAMs? their tactics
    Is there any article /book in english that covers this ?
    e.g were SA-4 only at a divisional level
    SA-6 and SA-8 at battalion level accompanying mobile units
    SA-9 and SA-7 with mechanized  infantry
    and the SA-5 /SA-10 defended strategic sites only like rocket and airbases etc

    any info is appreciated

    Many and many 2 circles of SAM sites around Moscow especialy ! remains one.

    1990 :

    8500 SAMs !!!
    1,400 S-25 Berkut -
    2,400 Lavochkin S-75 Dvina
    1,000 Isayev S-125 Neva\Pechora - 300+ sites
    1,950 Almaz S-200 Angara\Vega\Dubna - 130 sites
    1,700 Almaz S-300 - 85 sites

    2,410 interceptors 
    210 Su-27 Flanker
    500 Su-15 Flagon
    850 MiG-23 Flogger
    90 Yak-28 Firebar
    350 MiG-25 Foxbat
    50 Tu-128 Fiddler
    360 MiG-31 Foxhound
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    Post  George1 Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:50 pm

    SAMs developed by MKB "Fakel" in the museum complex of the Patriot Park

    https://saidpvo.livejournal.com/1005819.html

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    Post  JohninMK Sat May 01, 2021 10:32 pm

    The anniversary today of Gary Powers sight seeing flight 61 years ago that came to an abrupt end. At that moment AD came of age and much changed.

    Recently declassified map.


    Soviet Air Defence Forces (PVO) E0SoWk2XEAgAdsH?format=jpg&name=small

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