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    Chinese weapons/MIC issues

    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:37 pm

    The caliber at which any longer becomes useless is somewhere around 75. - Based on a guys' report on the L/100 guns Hitler ordered and their impracticality. I assume it's still relevant. 

    Any extra length decreases urban usage and adds weight....*any*. 

    But how is that relevant to your case? A gun this large would require newly developed stabilizers, auto-loaders, maybe even counterweights cause the caliber is so friggin large... 

    Thanks for answering that question...it was a pro-western site so I had a feeling it wouldn't be completely truthful. 

    The M829 (from A1 to A4 the differences are so large they don't deserve to be labeled the same...) series has basically hit its roof. All the US can do now is either increase the length of the gun, use more propellant, or possibly start investing more in ETC technology. Still, the M829A3 & A4 won't be useless for a long time. The HEAR rounds are useless from day one, there is no need to compromise one thing in order to make a round "more flexible". 

    100% as everyone has known the A3 will be a minor upgrade.... New engine, less weight, improved FCS, and maybe...just maybe... An APS of some sort. 

    Yet they've chosen not to use the longer gun...they haven't now, they won't later. Our politicians and army officials are stubborn.
    collegeboy16
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    Post  collegeboy16 Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:50 pm

    Mike E wrote:The caliber at which any longer becomes useless is somewhere around 75. - Based on a guys' report on the L/100 guns Hitler ordered and their impracticality. I assume it's still relevant. 
    the new gun is supposedly 60 calibres long so they are well within the limit.
    Mike E wrote:
    But how is that relevant to your case? A gun this large would require newly developed stabilizers, auto-loaders, maybe even counterweights cause the caliber is so friggin large... 
    its meant for a new tank so yeah... its only a hassle if you retrofit it to the older tanks, same as 2a82 gun.
    Mike E wrote:
    Thanks for answering that question...it was a pro-western site so I had a feeling it wouldn't be completely truthful. 
    what do you mean by "it"?
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:00 pm

    Yes, but that doesn't actually mean anything... The difference gets lower and lower, until it eventually hits that point (75 caliber) where the extra length is useless. Ie the difference between 51 caliber (current Chinese 125) and 56 caliber (2A82-1M) is greater than the difference between 56 and 60 (this new gun).

    A new tank..... What, exactly? China is focused on the ZTZ-99 and it's variants right now, their next new MBT is at least fifteen years away, that or it won't be very "new" at all.

    Sorry for being vague... "It" is a link I found in a Spacebattles thread a few days ago, I'll go find it later.
    Werewolf
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    Chinese weapons/MIC issues - Page 3 Empty China MIC issues

    Post  Werewolf Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:59 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    and they have ~6k modern tanks, not 1000. if you want to set the bar for modern tanks that high then Russia only has 930 modern tanks  Razz.

    and yes, there are limits to how far upgrades can make a tank competitive as long as possible, but the current situation with the US having a 6k strong modern tank park and Russia just introducing its new tanks just means they have a lot more ground to give and so can afford to slack off for some time. however, they havent been slacking at all, they are apart from updating their current tanks developing replacements.

    The US has only ca. 1200 tanks that could be even described as modern M1A2 sep2 versions, and less than 1000 in operational conditions. The rest of their tanks are M1, M1A1 or any other verions in between, non of those versions is modern, not even slightly superior than T-72B while T-72B3 is superior, T-80 aswell.
    sepheronx
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    Chinese weapons/MIC issues - Page 3 Empty J-20's characteristics are heavily in doubt especially when India floated out that their radars picked it up flying over Tibet (J-20) few years ago.

    Post  sepheronx Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:31 pm

    J-20's characteristics are heavily in doubt especially when India floated out that their radars picked it up flying over Tibet (J-20) few years ago.

    I can see it being a rather cheap and basic jet of the 5th gen to get something quick out and en mass. But I wouldn't put much into.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:43 pm

    sepheronx wrote:J-20's characteristics are heavily in doubt especially when India floated out that their radars picked it up flying over Tibet (J-20) few years ago.

    I can see it being a rather cheap and basic jet of the 5th gen to get something quick out and en mass.  But I wouldn't put much into.


    That may be true but it may just be Indian propaganda. I rather believe that it is the latter.
    The Chinese have mastered most weapon systems as well as their production, while the only exception is nuclear submarines. Look at what planes and ships or armored vehicles of all kinds were built in the nineties and what they are building today.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:58 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:J-20's characteristics are heavily in doubt especially when India floated out that their radars picked it up flying over Tibet (J-20) few years ago.

    I can see it being a rather cheap and basic jet of the 5th gen to get something quick out and en mass.  But I wouldn't put much into.


    That may be true but it may just be Indian propaganda. I rather believe that it is the latter.
    The Chinese have mastered most weapon systems as well as their production, while the only exception is nuclear submarines. Look at what planes and ships or armored vehicles of all kinds were built in the nineties and what they are building today.

    They haven't mastered much dude.

    Their tanks have issues. Their drones are disliked.  There are others.

    The jet is essentially a MiG 1.42 with an updated shell and electronics.  This wasn't made secret years ago.  They still had issues with their domestic engines but went with it anyway due to politics.

    Indian media can be bad and I will attest to it, BUT, China has a complete lock down of their media and that is also a reason why we don't hear of crashes for example.

    Chinas industry for decades survived off of copies and mass production. I don't think they would be quick to change.

    We can go further with the various other industries but we will stick to this one.  I don't believe a single thing that comes out of China. I remember them saying how advanced their Type 96 was compared to Russian tanks, till its tracks fell off during the competition is Moscow. Or how amazing their drones were until they started failing after 1 use.

    We can agree to disagree as we are only getting fraction of the news.  But I'm not crazy about Chinese systems due to real lack of info on them.  Western press goes off of Chinese press and well, that's the end of it.

    Russia has a bad habit of heavy testing of their jets, tanks and other systems for near a decade before fielding them. But the reason behind it is to test every little thing vehemently. USA just goes all in at once and then fix problems later at massive costs. China is doing much the same but they buy existing platforms to cut costs and corners. Nothing wrong with that.

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    ALAMO


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    Chinese weapons/MIC issues - Page 3 Empty The biggest mystery about made in China toys is a fact

    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:25 pm

    The biggest mystery about made in China toys is a fact, that the last war they fought was 50 years ago. And they lost...

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:43 pm

    ALAMO wrote:The biggest mystery about nade im China toys is a fact, that the last war they fought was 50 years ago. And they lost...

    If their missiles work during real test they will work in a real war.

    A war with China will be a war with missiles. Tanks and artillery don't swim and in the mountainous area near India they are of little help.

    J-20 is a missile carrier. That thing will keep shooting missiles all day. Just imagine Chinese civilian factories used for military products in a total war. They will make 1 missile per minute if not more.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:14 am

    Missiles have to work in tests to get into service, but that does not mean they are all successes when they get into real combat.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:56 am

    GarryB wrote:Missiles have to work in tests to get into service, but that does not mean they are all successes when they get into real combat.

    Yes but they won't not work too.

    If your ballistic missile can hit a building during test then it will very likely hit one during real war. The missile doesn't know if it's war or not. It works the same.

    Same for anti ship missiles or cruise missiles.
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    Post  TMA1 Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:56 pm

    J-20 looks to be formidable. That military rag is not very reliable and always puts down the su-57 (which does already supercruise with its first stage engine, btw). Su-57 is an engineering masterpiece.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:16 pm

    Russia is no longer in the same league as China and accept that.
    We are writing about a country of PRC that has built dozens and dozens of destroyers, frigates, corvettes and diesel-electric submarines.
    The number speaks for itself and with the number of units built, they are also improved. Okay, I agree that not everything is great (there is no country that has everything perfect), but do I need to remind you that the J-20 as the first prototype flew a year after the Su-57 ? How many serial Su-57 and J-20 planes are flying today ? I'm not underestimating Russia, but Russia can't compete with China, just like the West can't.
    The first frigate of project 22350 (Gorshkov) was laid down in 2006, so I ask you how many are operational in 2022 ? Tanks T-14, Kurganets-25 and Boomerang APC were present at 8 military parades in Moscow - are they operational ?
    The Su-57 flew for the first time 12 years ago (january 2010) and it will be 13 years in January next year.
    That underestimation of "Made in China" has nothing to do with anything, because we are writing about a country that is number one in everything; the production of cars, the length of the network of highways and high-speed railways, metro lines, the construction of the overall infrastructure has not been surpassed anywhere else in the world.
    The Chinese have a lot of money and build a lot, so during construction they are undoubtedly improving the already existing platforms under construction. There is not much wisdom here, these are the facts.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:40 pm

    People who deny the Chinese their position are doing that either due the lack of knowledge or deliberate agenda.
    Some are simply jealous Laughing
    I do business with the Chinese for 15 years. The progress they have made over that time is astonishing and mindblowing.
    15 years ago, tons of people had good laugh watching them. How they visited the world fairies and were taking photos of a single bolt and screw. A mob of Chinese with cameras was the first thing for anyone who participated in a world-class event.
    And slowly but steadily, that number was getting smaller and smaller, yet more and more Chinese products were there instead of small Chinese with a crappy cameras in hand.
    People had a lot of fun with this new Chinese stuff, finding what was just copied, and where they have stolen that from.
    And again, slowly but steadily, this funny moments started to fade away and decrease, as each next product was more mature, and even if one could have find some borrowings, still it was starting to be a standard procedure you can watch for any industrial competition.
    And for a while now, nobody laughs anymore, if not retarded.
    The most scary part of this story was how fast those eras followed one after another. From a cheap copy machine to word class giant in multiple spheres and business.

    The only part that I am not sure, is the objective lack of experience in modern warfare which is obvious for the Chinese.
    They didn't go to war for half of a century.
    Still, it must not be a disadvantage - they can simply tailor the operation to their concept, which might turn out brilliant. Or crappy.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:52 pm

    ALAMO wrote:People who deny the Chinese their position are doing that either due the lack of knowledge or deliberate agenda.
    Some are simply jealous Laughing
    I do business with the Chinese for 15 years. The progress they have made over that time is astonishing and mindblowing.
    15 years ago, tons of people had good laugh watching them. How they visited the world fairies and were taking photos of a single bolt and screw. A mob of Chinese with cameras was the first thing for anyone who participated in a world-class event.
    And slowly but steadily, that number was getting smaller and smaller, yet more and more Chinese products were there instead of small Chinese with a crappy cameras in hand.
    People had a lot of fun with this new Chinese stuff, finding what was just copied, and where they have stolen that from.
    And again, slowly but steadily, this funny moments started to fade away and decrease, as each next product was more mature, and even if one could have find some borrowings, still it was starting to be a standard procedure you can watch for any industrial competition.
    And for a while now, nobody laughs anymore, if not retarded.
    The most scary part of this story was how fast those eras followed one after another. From a cheap copy machine to word class giant in multiple spheres and business.

    The only part that I am not sure, is the objective lack of experience in modern warfare which is obvious for the Chinese.
    They didn't go to war for half of a century.
    Still, it must not be a disadvantage - they can simply tailor the operation to their concept, which might turn out brilliant. Or crappy.


    My friend, every new conflict or war brings new challenges. And Hitler spent almost two incomplete years with the Wehrmacht grinding everything in front of him, until he approached Moscow. I have always given the example of the USA and claim that that country has not had a SINGLE clear military victory since World War II. The infamous atomic bombs dropped over two Japanese cities were cowardice that the world accepted, unfortunately, because the US didn't have the balls to land a land invasion of Japan.
    Vietnam was a debacle, as is well known, even though a total of two million Vietnamese soldiers and civilians died in the conflict. The conflicts in which the USA participated after the Vietnam work were WELL CALCULATED, so the USA went and had good results in the nineties when they were technologically superior compared to the others. In the early 1990s or 2000s, China was nowhere near where it is now.
    China has not participated in wars for decades, as you wrote yourself, but the USA has not achieved and proven absolutely anything in the last 80+ years either. The only bright spot was the US Navy defeating the Imperial Japanese Navy in WW2.
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    Post  Arrow Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:04 pm

    Podlodka 77 Russia is still ahead of China in the field of military in many technologies. Missile technologies. Here we have strategic missile systems. New versions of Yars and new Sarmat. China has DF-41 but it is not known what level it is until the end. It is said to be a Topol-M. Russia is developing new strategic systems such as Burevestnik and Poseidon.
    China still does not have an analogue of Cirkon and HGV, although in the case of HGV they are close.
    Nuclear submarines here Russia, as you wrote, has better technologies.
    Armored vehicles, even though the T-14 and T 15, are entering service slowly.
    Anti-aircraft and missile defense. Russia is probably a world leader here as well.
    When it comes to the surface fleet, China has an advantage over Russia here. China may has an advantage in drone technology etc.
    Russia is currently the leader in cruise missiles. Calibers, Ch-101 etc.
    I wonder what the new strategic bomb from China will look like? Russia, on the other hand, is developing two heavy strategic bombers. The new Tu 160M2 and PAK DA. For this, he has a lot of Tu 22M3. It is also developing a new MiG-41 interceptor.

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    Post  Backman Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:56 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:Militarywatch magazine

    China’s J-20 is Now the World’s Only Supercruising Stealth Fighter in Production: Which Others Could Follow ?
    My personal observation, which has nothing to do with further text, is that Militarywatch magazine probably views the Su-57 as a low-volume production aircraft.


    This is a garbage J-20 puff piece. Military watch is a usually a good magazine though.

    The su 57 is in production. Period. That's a fact. They aren't building prototypes. It is serial, production.

    It is also not clear or verifiable how many J-20's are actually built. China is not transparent about it like Russia is.  Its also not clear what engines they have.

    Just look at the Wikipedia entries

    In December 2015, the low rate initial production (LRIP) version of J-20 was spotted by military observers. Ah. Ok. Suspect

    Report indicated Chengdu Aerospace Corporation terminated the manufacturing of J-20 with Russian engines in mid-2019. Reports indicate eh. lol1

    Conflicting reports emerged regarding the exact engine type. Analyst Andreas Rupprecht expressed skepticism regarding the use of Russian engines on the J-20, as he believes that the J-20 is using a variant of the WS-10 which he called the WS-10C. This engine has improved thrust, stealthier serrated afterburner nozzles, and higher reliability,  lol1

    In January 2021, South China Morning Post reported that China will replace Russian engines on the J-20 stealth fighter with a type of Chinese engine called WS-10C.[37][38] In June 2021, Chinese media confirmed that an aviation brigade is assigned with the enhanced J-20A variant that integrates domestic WS-10C engines. ???? 2 paragraphs ago, it said that Russian engines were terminated in 2019 dunno

    In January 2022, analyst Derek Solen estimated 50 to 74 fighters were in service based on open-source intelligence.[147] In August 2022, Li Xiaobing reported that over 150 had been delivered;[7] claims of 150 being in service had been made in 2021.[148][149] So nothing verified.

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Oct 25, 2022 7:49 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:Russia is no longer in the same league as China and accept that.
    Correct. The Russians are in a league of their own: gunning for nuclear primacy - the most modern nuclear arsenal with the unstoppable nuclear delivery systems and the unbreakable aerospace defense network. Why waste Rubles playing a rigged game when you can invent your own and play by your own rules?

    The Chinese are welcome to try their hand at the largest and most powerful conventional force. But the Soviet Union already tried that and fat lot of good that did them.

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    Post  Hole Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:20 pm

    Still the best and most combat-capable chinese aircraft are derivatives/clones of the Su-27 family.
    Their best bomber is the Tu-16.
    Their most important aircraft (used as transport, tanker, AEW, ASW, recon and ECM aircraft) is the An-12.
    Their surface fleet runs with clones of german engines and is equipped with clones of western and russian electronics and weapons.
    Their best tank is made up of T-72 parts, only the form of the turret differs.

    All good stuff. The fleet could be very useful (under russian command  Laughing). The (partly) large numbers have more to do with economic (and social) reasons then
    real military value, besides that even today most of the stuff is from the 70´s and 80´s (which means it is russian stuff from the 60´s).

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:54 am

    I love Russia, but comparing China with Russia (or West) is already unrealistic.
    China is already the number one beast, they just haven't knocked on the USA's door yet and told them openly.

    You all write that you do not underestimate China, but you do it consciously or unconsciously. The wheels are spinning, they don't stand still and the Chinese wheels can no longer be stopped. Most of you are overly enamored with either Russia or the West, so consciously or unconsciously you forget the yellow ones.
    And I claim again that Russia (or West) can no longer keep up with China, the gap will increase more and more. This applies not only to Russia, but also to the inefficient West, where everything costs several times more than it is really worth. Chinese industry is increasingly efficient, Russian or Western industry is not. The Chinese have what no other Christian country (counting Russia) has anymore, which is discipline and efficiency; regardless of whether it is the fight against the corona virus, industrial development and production capacities.

    Folks, I'm not saying I'm 100% right, but the data speaks for itself. The Chinese produce everything without hesitation, at full throttle, and have no problems with some of the things that the Russians have problems with; The Chinese produce more aircraft and have mass-produced J-20 aircraft (fact), we already know everything about surface ships construction (fact), they produce AFAR radars (fact), submarines with AIP propulsion (fact), they have more attack drones (fact), while their arsenal of tactical ballistic missiles and MLRS systems is just as imposing. I did not write that the Chinese are better than the Russians in the air defense system, although there is no doubt that they are at a high level there, while they are certainly not with nuclear submarines - but the Russians do not produce them (yet) in sufficient numbers either.
    Whether the AFAR radars are really better than the PFAR radar on the Su-35S or whether the AIP is better than the classic diesel-electric drive in combat conditions is another story. Russia's fleet of SSN submarines is old and in need of rapid replacement, so a further decline in the number of operational nuclear attack submarines is inevitable. The same will happen in the USA.

    I am convinced that in 10 years everyone in the world will be buying not only Chinese cars but also everything else. The country that 35 years ago had no highway and now has 170,000 kilometers and is the first in the world is certainly not to be underestimated. The same applies to the network of high-speed railways, the length of which is over 40,000 km (two thirds of the entire world), although the first line was opened only in 2008.
    It is not only the Chinese army, but it is clear that the entire country of China and all its industrial and manufacturing branches are developing at an unprecedented speed.

    Brian said the almost same thing 2 days ago about China compared to the West - nothing can stop them anymore..
    And then I ask you the following; how is it possible for China to overtake the West if it does not have a capable army?






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    Post  ALAMO Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:02 am

    The guys run hype patriotism, which is actually funny as none of them is Russkie Laughing

    Cheers lads Very Happy

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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:07 am

    ALAMO wrote:The guys run hype patriotism, which is actually funny as none of them is Russkie Laughing

    Cheers lads Very Happy

    Good morning my friend. People are not realistic, they think that the world revolves only around Russia and the West, or only around Russia or only around the West. Neither of them are right.
    Each time brings its own; The British Empire was once number 1, then the USA came and now the yellow ones are coming..

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:03 am

    As I said, people are yapping about China for three main reasons.
    Some don't have a clue.
    The others are jealous.
    And some of them are Hindu Laughing Laughing
    No offense my Indian friends, but your attitude toward China is rather apparent to anyone who observe it without agenda.

    As Stalin once said, the quantity is a quality of its own, so even if we take for granted all the grease someone tries to put into the Chinese achievements, it won't affect the fact.
    They are industrial superpower with no equals on the planet.
    Dot.
    Sure we can discuss that in detail later, but if anyone tries to go down the list, things will get more and more clear.
    The very last superstructure constructed in the Europe was a bloody Sunde Bridge, and that was in 1999!!!!
    A fuckin' official site of the EU megaprojects has "news" from 2020, on a scale of some village bypass.
    EU infrastructure is much more advanced and dense than the US one, so link the dots.
    No point to compare it to the Chinese, that is like a boy scout picnic clashed with Zapad 1981 maneuvers.

    The rate of the expanse of Chinese navy makes anyone who observes speechless. Who cares if those ships run German diesel, Russkie radars and missiles etc, if the construction rate is double the rest of the world combined?
    By calling that "German" or "Russian" ones already label themselves, as all of that crap is being produced in China locally.
    If licensed or copied, who cares?
    Reverse engineering is not an easy piece of bread, you know?
    That applies to every achievement of the Chinese MIC. 20 years ago, nobody other than Pak would consider a China-made weapon to be purchased.
    Now they arm half of the Africa, and some toys are being sold even to non-bloc European countries like Serbia.
    Sure, Serbia is a tiny country, but 10 years ago they wouldn't even had a tea with the Chinese MIC delegation due to lack of points...
    Just sit and watch how the next decade will look like.
    We live in interesting times, as the Chinese curse themselves ...

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:50 am

    If your ballistic missile can hit a building during test then it will very likely hit one during real war. The missile doesn't know if it's war or not. It works the same.

    Same for anti ship missiles or cruise missiles.

    A missile is only as good as its test is... some countries the test is a real test and in others it is a formality.

    For some it is just a test to see that it launches and hits some designated target, while for others it has to achieve a level of performance.

    Hitting a target in a test is not the same as being used in the real world against an enemy that camouflages and hides its assets, that defends them using decoys and electronic jamming etc etc.

    For example with the AIM-9X we were told its advanced imaging seeker you could select the part of the aircraft to hit and flares and jammers would not work because it can see the target and that target does not look like a flare or a jammer... yet in the real world a Syrian Su-22 was able to evade an AIM-9X sidewinder missile using flares and manouvering...

    Regarding the Chinese, their ability to produce equipment is not in question, but they lack combat experience and many of their systems seem to be mishmashes of western and Russian gear with no obvious design thought unique to their situation.

    They certainly have some interesting stuff and considering it was not that long ago that their cities were wall to wall with bicycles instead of cars...

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    Podlodka77
    Podlodka77


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    Chinese weapons/MIC issues - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese weapons/MIC issues

    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:55 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:J-20's characteristics are heavily in doubt especially when India floated out that their radars picked it up flying over Tibet (J-20) few years ago.

    I can see it being a rather cheap and basic jet of the 5th gen to get something quick out and en mass.  But I wouldn't put much into.


    That may be true but it may just be Indian propaganda. I rather believe that it is the latter.
    The Chinese have mastered most weapon systems as well as their production, while the only exception is nuclear submarines. Look at what planes and ships or armored vehicles of all kinds were built in the nineties and what they are building today.

    They haven't mastered much dude.

    Their tanks have issues. Their drones are disliked.  There are others.

    The jet is essentially a MiG 1.42 with an updated shell and electronics.  This wasn't made secret years ago.  They still had issues with their domestic engines but went with it anyway due to politics.

    Indian media can be bad and I will attest to it, BUT, China has a complete lock down of their media and that is also a reason why we don't hear of crashes for example.

    Chinas industry for decades survived off of copies and mass production. I don't think they would be quick to change.

    We can go further with the various other industries but we will stick to this one.  I don't believe a single thing that comes out of China. I remember them saying how advanced their Type 96 was compared to Russian tanks, till its tracks fell off during the competition is Moscow. Or how amazing their drones were until they started failing after 1 use.

    We can agree to disagree as we are only getting fraction of the news.  But I'm not crazy about Chinese systems due to real lack of info on them.  Western press goes off of Chinese press and well, that's the end of it.

    Russia has a bad habit of heavy testing of their jets, tanks and other systems for near a decade before fielding them. But the reason behind it is to test every little thing vehemently. USA just goes all in at once and then fix problems later at massive costs.  China is doing much the same but they buy existing platforms to cut costs and corners.  Nothing wrong with that.


    OK, if the Chinese already "copy" everything, why does China have what Russia does not have, that is, AIP propulsion on submarines, AFAR radars, universal launch complexes on Chinese surface warships that Gorshkov frigates do not have. The Chinese did not crash the first serial J-20 or the first prototype Il-112. I love and defend Russia in this battle against Ukroshitstan and NATO, but the Russians are already far, far behind China.

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