Russian Navy: Status & News #3

Isos wrote:

Maritime Defense Show in St. Petersburg already brings surprises https://utro.ru/articles/2017/06/28/1331900.shtml

It's doubtfull they go for something so big. It looks bigger than US carrier.

JohninMK wrote:

eehnie wrote:

Isos wrote:

Maritime Defense Show in St. Petersburg already brings surprises https://utro.ru/articles/2017/06/28/1331900.shtml

It's doubtfull they go for something so big. It looks bigger than US carrier.

The size announced is between 90000 and 100000 tons. It is the size of the biggest US Aircraft Carriers. It was clear since the begin, that Russia will not build an aircraft carrier that loses vs the current US aircraft carriers in a 1 vs 1 situation. For a 1 vs 1 Russia wants at least a tie. If the US wants superiority will have to go with 2 or to build 150000 tons aircraft carriers in the future.

If the US soldier in the forum is unhappy, surely Russia is doing something well.

It won't happen any time soon. This isn't a biggest dick competition! It would need most of the Russian Navy to protect it and they, probably more than anyone else, are well aware of how vulnerable a carrier is.

Why do you persist in calling someone a US soldier when you don't know he is.

Tsavo Lion wrote:Time will tell. But it doesn't need to be the same size as the Nimitz or Ford CVN. IMO, Kitty Hawk class or QE size would be adequate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Hawk-class_aircraft_carrier http://uk.businessinsider.com/3-billion-hms-queen-elizabeth-set-to-sail-for-first-time-2017-6?r=US&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/the-mind-bending-specifications-hms-queen-elizabeth-2017-6
In the US experience, for the price of 1 CVN, ~2 CVs can be had, & in less time. Also, as I mentioned, a nuclear carrier needs to be refueled after 10-15 years, a lengthy process during which it can't deploy. So, if they need 3 more, it's better to build all 3 with conventional propulsion before starting a nuclear powered class- by the time the 1st is ready, Adm. K would be approaching its retirement or next major overhaul.
They could also retain Ash &/ CMs launchers on board to go to/from the Black Sea at will. Then 1-2 could be based there, 1-2 in Severomorsk, & 2 in the Pacific Fleet. Later, having 3 in the Far East & 3 in the West will enable the RF to deploy 2 CBGs at all times.    

Tsavo Lion wrote:Excuse me, are you a prophet to predict the number they'll have? Later they may decide to have 6 or end up with 6, if older ones are retained longer. The expert in the article I posted also said 4, without specifying. I guess it's for redundancy &/ to enable to deploy 1 more often. The Black Sea will be just basing & training area, & it's a lot closer to Med. Sea where they'll mostly deploy. 2 NITKAs are already there, no need to send pilots from Kola to Crimea & Eisk & back. They don't have a luxury of a permanent base in the Med. Sea to forward deploy there like the USN has in Japan.

Tsavo Lion wrote:Excuse me, are you a prophet to predict the number they'll have? Later they may decide to have 6 or end up with 6, if older ones are retained longer. The expert in the article I posted also said 4, without specifying. I guess it's for redundancy &/ to enable to deploy 1 more often. The Black Sea will be just basing & training area, & it's a lot closer to Med. Sea where they'll mostly deploy. 2 NITKAs are already there, no need to send pilots from Kola to Crimea & Eisk & back. They don't have a luxury of a permanent base in the Med. Sea to forward deploy there like the USN has in Japan.

eehnie wrote:The Russian maritime doctrine of 2015 say this:

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/50060

Russian Federation Marine Doctrine

Vladimir Putin held a meeting to discuss the new draft of Russia’s Marine Doctrine.

July 26, 2015 16:00Baltiisk
Vladimir Putin held a meeting to discuss the new draft of Russia’s Marine Doctrine.
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Vladimir Putin held a meeting to discuss the new draft of Russia’s Marine Doctrine.
The meeting took place on board the frigate Admiral of the Soviet Navy Gorshkov. Participants included Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, Commander of the Navy Viktor Chirkov, and Commander of the Western Military District Anatoly Sidorov.

* * *

President of Russia Vladimir Putin: Colleagues, good afternoon.

We have been updating the Russian Federation’s Marine Doctrine. This very complex document’s main aim is to provide our country with an integral, consistent and effective naval policy that will protect Russia’s interests.

The Doctrine has been drafted and approved. This is a big event for our future navy, and for developing our shipbuilding industry, because the main customer – the navy in this case, and the Defence Ministry – formulate their future needs, and the industry must carry out these tasks. Industry adapts to new tasks depending on the needs formulated.

Let me note that for the first time, the Doctrine also includes provisions of a purely social nature. They cover marine medicine, and provisions for improving the health of sailors and the specialists working in the marine field. This is very important. People need to know that from now on, our strategic documents for developing our country’s fleet and navy will address the social aspect too, and will give people what they expect from their service, as they carry out the tasks that face our country today in this very complex and important area.

Let’s now discuss in more detail the Doctrine’s key provisions. Mr Rogozin, you have the floor.

Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin: Thank you.

Mr President,

This new draft of the Russian Federation Marine Doctrine is a fundamental document of key importance, setting out our country’s naval policy. In other words, it is one of our country’s strategic planning documents.

The Russian Government’s Marine Board undertook the document’s drafting, with the navy playing the leading role in this work. In all, 15 federal executive agencies and organisations took part in drafting the new Doctrine.

We proposed making changes to the Marine Doctrine adopted back in 2001 for the period through to 2020 for two reasons: above all, the changing international situation; and, of course, strengthening Russia’s position as a sea power.

The Marine Doctrine covers four functional areas and six regional areas. The four functional areas are naval activity, marine transport, marine science, and mineral resources development. The six regional areas are the Atlantic, Arctic, Pacific, Caspian, and Indian Ocean, and we have added Antarctica, as a fair number of events involving Antarctica have taken place of late and this region is of considerable interest to Russia.

The main focus is on two areas: the Arctic and the Atlantic. The reasons for this are the following. We emphasise the Atlantic because NATO has been developing actively of late and coming closer to our borders, and Russia is of course responding to these developments.

The second reason is that Crimea and Sevastopol have been reunited with Russia and we need to take measures for their rapid integration into the national economy. Of course, we are also restoring Russia’s naval presence in the Mediterranean.

As for the Arctic, several events motivate our decision. One is the growing importance of the North Sea Route. Mr President, I reported to you that we have begun work on building a new fleet of atomic-powered icebreakers. Three new atomic icebreakers will be ready for work accompanying ships along the northern route in 2017, 2019, and 2020. Furthermore, the Arctic also assures us free and unhindered access to the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Then there are the riches of the continental shelf, the development of which calls for an attentive approach.

The Marine Doctrine pays particular attention to environmental issues too, because it is important for us not only to develop these riches, but also to preserve them for future generations.

The Marine Doctrine contains a new section on shipbuilding. This is to a large extent linked to the fact that over these last 10–15 years, we have developed a shipbuilding industry that in terms of naval shipbuilding is doing work on a scale comparable to what was happening during the Soviet period. As for civilian and commercial shipbuilding, we are taking measures to encourage the establishment of private shipbuilding companies, which have demonstrated successful results.

State management of marine activities is an important part of the Marine Doctrine. This section stresses the role of the Government’s Marine Board and clarifies the powers of the other state agencies. Essentially, once you approved the Marine Doctrine, we will be able to start drafting the whole list of planning documents for our country’s marine activities in the short, medium and long term.

That concludes my report.

Vladimir Putin: Are there any comments or questions?

Commander of the Navy Viktor Chirkov: Mr President,

Let me thank you for this Marine Doctrine’s timely drafting and approval. This is a timely document. It places responsibility on us for its future implementation, and we have already begun this process.

Vladimir Putin: Mr Sidorov, what is the situation with coordination between the army and the navy?

Commander of the Western Military District Anatoly Sidorov: Mr President, it is hard to talk about coordination when everything works as single whole and unified command. As far as the tasks before us are concerned, the Baltic Fleet is resolving everything together with the Western Military District’s forces.

Regarding the delimitation of certain powers between the naval chief command and the Western Military District’s command, there is full coordination in this area.

Vladimir Putin: Good, thank you.

I see weakening in your comment, papadragon, more than a strenghtening.

And more concretely about shipbuilding:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russias-new-maritime-doctrine.391893/

Shipbuilding strategy

The 2015 doctrine adds a new section to the mix: shipbuilding. This, the doctrine states, is due to the re-emergence of the Russian shipbuilding sector over the past 10-15 years.

Admiral Victor Chirkov, commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy states that the navy's priority is to develop and deploy advanced equipment to enable Russia to make up for lost ground (against rivals) and to become superior to them in certain areas. In addition to refitting the fleets, the navy is looking to build up stocks of weaponry and materiel; improve naval command and control (C2); integrate joint force C2 into the various theatres; and improve the navy's basing and support systems.

Among these, priority will be given to supporting Russia's ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) and nuclear attack submarines (SSNs) within the Northern and Pacific fleets.

Additionally, the doctrine seeks to create a general-purpose marine force armed with long-range and high-precision strike systems capable of providing a non-nuclear deterrent.

The navy's future surface fleet is to be divided between long-range multirole vessels and short-range vessels with modular capabilities. Looking ahead, the service intends to field a multi-service naval strike force capable of quick relocation to threatened areas.

The doctrine also foresees the introduction of new and innovative technologies such as: artificial intelligence systems, unmanned aerial, surface and underwater vehicles (UAVs, USVs, UUVs), non-lethal weapon systems, and new weapon types such as directed-energy weapons.

Russia will now look to create a single, integrated, and jam-proof fleet-wide C2 system for use at all levels from the strategic to the tactical. This is intended to be adaptable and to form a single information control complex to enable network-centric command of diverse naval and joint-service assets in any theatre of operations.

In connection with the maritime doctrine, and amendments in some aspects of force development, the Russian Navy is expected to gain some additional resources because the creation of a well-balanced and equipped naval force is a long-term effort of 30-40 years. Considering this and the duration of ship design/construction work, the conceptual approach to the development of the navy will be an ongoing issue for 45-50 years.

To take account of the implementation time and existing/forecast resource and technology restrictions, the creation of the new-model navy has been divided into three phases: up to 2020; 2021-2030; and 2031-2050. The content of each phase was outlined by Adm Chirkov for the various elements of the navy.

Strategic nuclear forces

Up until 2020 the maritime strategic nuclear force will focus on completing the development and launching of its fourth-generation Borey-class (Project 955/955A) SSBNs, while maintaining its remaining Delta III/IV-class (Project 667BDR/667BDRM) SSBNs in operational service.

During the 2021-2030 phase work will proceed on replacing the Delta class with fourth-generation SSBNs. Within this second phase Russia will also work on developing a new ship-based (in fact submarine-based) strategic missile system and a fifth-generation SSBN class. The doctrine sets out that series production of the fifth-generation SSBN will then commence in the final 2031-2050 phase.

General-purpose force

The general-purpose marine force inventory will include in its first phase the creation of a strategic non-nuclear deterrent force, enhancements to its SSN and diesel-electric submarines (SSKs), the build-up of the inventory and capability of its surface forces, and the creation of the new marine rapid-response force. In the mid term the non-nuclear deterrent will be provided by Yasen-class (Project 885M) SSNs and Oscar-class (Project 885M) nuclear-powered guided missile submarines (SSGNs). Meanwhile, the capability of Russia's non-strategic submarines will be ensured by upgrading its third-generation SSNs and building a new generation of SSKs.

During the 2021-2030 phase Russia's existing SSN/SSK fleet is planned to be improved by adding unmanned technologies, while construction of a new-generation SSN class is also planned.

Surface fleet

In the first phase Russia's Admiral Gorshkov-class (Project 22350) frigates and Steregushchy-class (Project 20380) corvettes and their variants will become the core of the surface force for long- and short-range operations.

In the mid term a new-generation destroyer featuring advanced strike, air defence and missile defence capabilities will become the navy's main oceangoing ship. Between 2021 and 2030 a new class of modular multirole surface combat ship will be designed and enter series production as the successor to the Project 22350/20380 classes. It is envisaged that these will be armed with novel weapon systems and will carry unmanned vehicles of various sorts.

The marine rapid-response force is intended to be capable of conducting missions in the maritime, aerial and land domains in any part of the world. For this, new aircraft carriers will be the core of its capability, along with multirole landing ships. Work to design a new class of Russian aircraft carrier is to be completed before 2020, with construction and entry into service planned for the second phase of the doctrine (2021-2030).

Unlike the heavy aircraft cruisers of the previous generation of Russian aircraft carriers, the new carrier design will be multirole. It is envisaged to be equipped with manned and unmanned combat systems operating in the air, at sea, underwater and possibly in space. The carrier's air groups will include radar surveillance and C2 aircraft, alongside reconnaissance and strike UAVs.

Naval Aviation

For the Russian Naval Aviation the focus in the first phase will be the development and serial production of an advanced maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) by 2020.

Additionally, Russia will look to develop and produce a new shore/ship-based multirole helicopter (to replace the Ka-27) and acquire a ship-based combat helicopter (the Ka-52K). Russia will also seek to develop advanced airborne strike systems.

The second phase will see the deployment of the new Russian ship-based radar surveillance aircraft, ship-based UAVs, and ship-based strike aircraft. The 2021-2030 period will see the Russian Naval Aviation transition to optionally piloted aircraft, including those derived from existing manned aircraft. Obsolete aircraft are to be replaced by modern, multirole manned and unmanned aircraft. During the 2031-2050 phase naval aviation focus will switch to a new generation of multirole aircraft and UAVs and field a new generation of airborne precision weapon systems.

Coastal forces

The first phase of the doctrine concerning Russia's coastal troops and marine force aims to achieve: the completion of development of advance coastal-defence missiles and the issuing of them; and the enhancement of the marine brigade's ability to operate in different climates, including extreme Arctic conditions.

Between 2021 and 2030 the doctrine plans the introduction of a highly mobile amphibious combat vehicle for the coastal troops so that they can support the marines' operations. The marines are also earmarked to begin receiving unmanned platforms during this period, possibly armed with directed-energy weapons or powered by alternative energy sources.

Long term

The direction of the final 2031-2050 phase is currently being analysed, according to Adm Chirkov. However, it is envisaged that during this final phase the following will be undertaken: series production of new-generation submarines; ongoing series production of the new aircraft carrier class; the start of series production of the new multirole ship class; the creation of a new generation of multirole unmanned systems; and the arming of coastal defence troops with new-generation unmanned missile systems capable of striking air, surface, sub-surface and space targets.

Long-term plans (by 2050) also call for a transition to modular combat platforms for both surface ships and submarines.

Nikolai Novichkov is a JDW Correspondent, reporting from Moscow

And the project being designed is the Project 23000 that full agrees with the doctrine.

Note that the doctrine explicitly mentions more than one aircraft carrier and serial production of aircraft carriers.

Tsavo Lion wrote:As I wrote in prev. posts:

Tsavo Lion wrote:Military expert: aircraft carriers - "expensive thing", but Russia needs them https://ria.ru/radio_brief/20170628/1497473410.html
- after the refit, Adm.K may change its home port to Sevastopol.  No need to transit the English Channel & Gibraltar. The weather is also a lot better in the Black Sea to allow more training. ..They could also retain Ash &/CMs launchers on board [of future carriers] to go to/from the Black Sea at will.

, to comply with the Montreux Convention. From the link above: "По мировой классификации "Адмирал Кузнецов" не является авианосцем, он является авианесущим крейсером, на нем есть ракетное вооружение. И, в соответствии с Конвенцией Монтре, он имеет право заходить в Черное море. Американские авианосцы, например, не имеют такого права, потому что они  юридически являются авианосцами. А на Черном море авианосец нам нужен для того, чтобы решать задачи на Ближнем Востоке, в Средиземном море"..

They don't have the luxury of permanent base on Med but they have the luxury to build 6 carriers?.. And tell me, how many times did Kuznecov enter the Black sea since it left it?

PapaDragon wrote:
Russia needs super-carrier as much as USA needs nuclear Icebreaker. Why are we still taking about this crap? Nothing bigger than Kuznetzov at most will be getting built.

They might hypothetically build one Shtorm at some point but by then we will all either be in retirement home or beyond.



ALSO:

Could their be Super Gorshkov that we have been hearing about? S-400(ish) in the back:


Can anyone do rough count/guess on the missile numbers and types?

Isos wrote:It looks like a gorshkov mix with an Udaloi. The biggest radar should be on the top mast for max detection against low flying missiles, maybe it's just for ABM and 40N6 guidance.

The design looks good but I would add 2 more Ak-630 at midship.

This thing should have a BIG sonar. Maybe new technology ??

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:It looks like a gorshkov mix with an Udaloi. The biggest radar should be on the top mast for max detection against low flying missiles, maybe it's just for ABM and 40N6 guidance.

The design looks good but I would add 2 more Ak-630 at midship.

This thing should have a BIG sonar. Maybe new technology ??

This looks like something that can definitely replace both Udaloi and Atalant class

Two (maybe even three if it can cover Kirovs) replaced by one, sounds good to me

Is this thing supposed to be conventionally powered? Because I am not seeing smokestacks...

Isos wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:It looks like a gorshkov mix with an Udaloi. The biggest radar should be on the top mast for max detection against low flying missiles, maybe it's just for ABM and 40N6 guidance.

The design looks good but I would add 2 more Ak-630 at midship.

This thing should have a BIG sonar. Maybe new technology ??

This looks like something that can definitely replace both Udaloi and Atalant class

Two (maybe even three if it can cover Kirovs) replaced by one, sounds good to me

Is this thing supposed to be conventionally powered? Because I am not seeing smokestacks...

I don't think it's a real project... They said a bigger Gorshkov, not a totally new design with double its size.

PapaDragon wrote:
Guys can someone tell me which is better way for a surface ship to engage a submarine: a torpedo or a helicopter?

And how much is standard torpedo superior to Paket-M torpedoes?  

Twelve ships of the 10,000t "Leader class" are planned to enter service from 2023-25, split between the Northern and Pacific Fleets. They will all be nuclear powered. They will be fitted with the ABM-capable S-500 SAM and Kalibr (SS-N-27) cruise missile. The Project 23560 destroyer is expected to replace the Project 956 (NATO reporting names: Sovremennyy-class) and Project 1155 (Udaloy-class) warships that make up the backbone of the Russian Navy’s oceangoing surface combatant forces. ..The Leader will carry the Kalibr (SS-N-27 Sizzler) anti ship and Oniks (SS-N-26 Strobile) land-attack missile systems or their versions as well as a ship-based variant of the S-500 surface-to-air missile system with the antimissile [& possibly ASAT] capability. http://navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/june-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5333-russian-mod-approves-project-23560-leader-class-nuclear-powered-destroyer-preliminary-design.html

"Прибой" обойдется в 40 миллиардов http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2904942&cid=7

Tsavo Lion wrote:

Twelve ships of the 10,000t "Leader class" are planned to enter service from 2023-25, split between the Northern and Pacific Fleets. They will all be nuclear powered. They will be fitted with the ABM-capable S-500 SAM and Kalibr (SS-N-27) cruise missile. The Project 23560 destroyer is expected to replace the Project 956 (NATO reporting names: Sovremennyy-class) and Project 1155 (Udaloy-class) warships that make up the backbone of the Russian Navy’s oceangoing surface combatant forces. ..The Leader will carry the Kalibr (SS-N-27 Sizzler) anti ship and Oniks (SS-N-26 Strobile) land-attack missile systems or their versions as well as a ship-based variant of the S-500 surface-to-air missile system with the antimissile [& possibly ASAT] capability. http://navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/june-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5333-russian-mod-approves-project-23560-leader-class-nuclear-powered-destroyer-preliminary-design.html

when escorted by icebreakers or ice strenghtened ships, they could also sail in the Arctic, Antarctic & Okhotsk Sea most, if not all, of the year.

"Прибой" обойдется в 40 миллиардов http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2904942&cid=7

R40B=673,559,600.78, or $673.6M x 4 of them= $2,694.4B.