Soviet Anti-ship missiles

GarryB wrote:

Ok thanks I wasn't sure if it could pick targets smaller than 10,000 tonnes

I read that the AS-4 Kitchen was designed to target only large ships as mentioned earlier in this thread too

Keep in mind that technology improves over time and I would suggest all modern Russian anti ship missiles would be able to target surf boards by now... the AS-4 likely would not have been wasted on a corvette in the 1980s, but these days even corvettes are potent vessels that can't be ignored.

Besides once the fighting starts most ships will scan for threats making them vulnerable to anti radiation models of AShMs too.

GarryB wrote:

True but I was most interested in capabilities of Soviet ASM in the 80s, do you think saturation might work against destroyer sized targets ?
e.g if 5 Tu-22M launch 2 x AS-4 each against a destroyer there are good chances atleast one would find home and given large warhead most likely sink the ship

I would think a destroyer would be big enough to target, the thing is that I rather doubt they would send up 5 Backfires just to fly around looking for targets to attack and when they find a target to make a snap decision as to whether to attack it or not.

I would expect a Bear (Tu-142) flying on MPA might detect a signal from a radar or communication from the target... give it a quick scan on long range radar and send coordinates to HQ who might decide to mount an all out attack or it might send a few aircraft.

The AS-4 came in a range of types including anti radar and active radar homing... if the target is not emitting then a single active radar homing model followed by a few anti radar missiles would be a useful attack where the incoming first missile will result in the defensive use of radars to scan for more incoming missiles, which in turn allows the following missiles something to detect and home in on

Most destroyers of the 1980s were like land based air defences of the time and had one or maybe two guidance channels per major SAM system so 2-3 fast missiles could overwhelm quite impressive systems.

and other ships armed with ASM or SSM may not be around e.g Krivaks, Udaloy, Kara , Kresta II carried no anti-ship missiles

Actually they were more well rounded systems than the west actually thought... the SS-N-14 Silex was a fully dual role weapon system in its 1980s models.

The original was like the Australian Ikara in that it was a torpedo with a rocket attached to its top... the rocket carried the torpedo ballistically to the general location of the sub and then released the torpedo into the water for the torpedo to hunt down and hopefully sink the sub.

The SS-N-14 was different and actually had a secondary HE warhead and optical seeker, so when launched it used its wings to maintain flight and flew to the target at subsonic speeds and dropped its torpedo into the water near where the sub was expected to be. At the flick of a switch however the torpedo payload was not dropped and the optical guidance was activated to find surface ships... the combination of the warhead on the rocket section and the torpedo warhead and fuel combined to make quite a significant anti ship payload and with fully passive guidance it would give less warning than Harpoon and Exocet.

Obviously designed for anti sub use where the optical guidance and rocket payload was not used.

GarryB wrote:

True but I was most interested in capabilities of Soviet ASM in the 80s, do you think saturation might work against destroyer sized targets ?
e.g if 5 Tu-22M launch 2 x AS-4 each against a destroyer there are good chances atleast one would find home and given large warhead most likely sink the ship

I would think a destroyer would be big enough to target, the thing is that I rather doubt they would send up 5 Backfires just to fly around looking for targets to attack and when they find a target to make a snap decision as to whether to attack it or not.

I would expect a Bear (Tu-142) flying on MPA might detect a signal from a radar or communication from the target... give it a quick scan on long range radar and send coordinates to HQ who might decide to mount an all out attack or it might send a few aircraft.

The AS-4 came in a range of types including anti radar and active radar homing... if the target is not emitting then a single active radar homing model followed by a few anti radar missiles would be a useful attack where the incoming first missile will result in the defensive use of radars to scan for more incoming missiles, which in turn allows the following missiles something to detect and home in on

Most destroyers of the 1980s were like land based air defences of the time and had one or maybe two guidance channels per major SAM system so 2-3 fast missiles could overwhelm quite impressive systems.

and other ships armed with ASM or SSM may not be around e.g Krivaks, Udaloy, Kara , Kresta II carried no anti-ship missiles

Actually they were more well rounded systems than the west actually thought... the SS-N-14 Silex was a fully dual role weapon system in its 1980s models.

The original was like the Australian Ikara in that it was a torpedo with a rocket attached to its top... the rocket carried the torpedo ballistically to the general location of the sub and then released the torpedo into the water for the torpedo to hunt down and hopefully sink the sub.

The SS-N-14 was different and actually had a secondary HE warhead and optical seeker, so when launched it used its wings to maintain flight and flew to the target at subsonic speeds and dropped its torpedo into the water near where the sub was expected to be. At the flick of a switch however the torpedo payload was not dropped and the optical guidance was activated to find surface ships... the combination of the warhead on the rocket section and the torpedo warhead and fuel combined to make quite a significant anti ship payload and with fully passive guidance it would give less warning than Harpoon and Exocet.

Obviously designed for anti sub use where the optical guidance and rocket payload was not used.

GarryB wrote:They are not really obsolete now...

Modern air defences have a limit or capacity, and having lots of cheap simple missiles could be used to overwhelm any defence... their payload will still ruin your day and being subsonic is no handicap for harpoon or Exocet.

nastle77 wrote:In the 1980s approximately 60 Bear H aircraft were equipped with AS-15 Kent ALCM
were these AS-15 also capable of hitting naval targets like destroyers or frigates /

Thanks

artjomh wrote:

nastle77 wrote:In the 1980s approximately 60 Bear H aircraft were equipped with AS-15 Kent ALCM
were these AS-15 also capable of hitting naval targets like destroyers or frigates /

Thanks

No. The guidance system is purely inertial w/ TERCOM. There is no radar or optical system into which you can input vessel shapes.

nastle77 wrote:

artjomh wrote:

nastle77 wrote:In the 1980s approximately 60 Bear H aircraft were equipped with AS-15 Kent ALCM
were these AS-15 also capable of hitting naval targets like destroyers or frigates /

Thanks

No. The guidance system is purely inertial w/ TERCOM. There is no radar or optical system into which you can input vessel shapes.

Thanks ! What about the AS-4 kitchens carried by strategic aviation Tu-22M ? Could they be used for anti-shipping strikes ?

Militarov wrote:

nastle77 wrote:

artjomh wrote:

nastle77 wrote:In the 1980s approximately 60 Bear H aircraft were equipped with AS-15 Kent ALCM
were these AS-15 also capable of hitting naval targets like destroyers or frigates /

Thanks

No. The guidance system is purely inertial w/ TERCOM. There is no radar or optical system into which you can input vessel shapes.

Thanks ! What about the AS-4 kitchens carried by strategic aviation Tu-22M ? Could they be used for anti-shipping strikes ?

Yes, they mix inertial and active radar homing.

nastle77 wrote:

Militarov wrote:

nastle77 wrote:

artjomh wrote:

nastle77 wrote:In the 1980s approximately 60 Bear H aircraft were equipped with AS-15 Kent ALCM
were these AS-15 also capable of hitting naval targets like destroyers or frigates /

Thanks

No. The guidance system is purely inertial w/ TERCOM. There is no radar or optical system into which you can input vessel shapes.

Thanks ! What about the AS-4 kitchens carried by strategic aviation Tu-22M ? Could they be used for anti-shipping strikes ?

Yes, they mix inertial and active radar homing.

so not just the naval aviation backfires but the strategic aviation AS-4 armed backfires can potentially be used for anti-shipping strikes ?

GarryB wrote:

In the 1980s approximately 60 Bear H aircraft were equipped with AS-15 Kent ALCM
were these AS-15 also capable of hitting naval targets like destroyers or frigates /

No they could only be flown to fixed coordinates with a nuke warhead.

The Kh-555 was a conventionally armed model of the same weapon (Kh-55) with terminal guidance and a shorter range, but even it was for fixed targets AFAIK.

Thanks ! What about the AS-4 kitchens carried by strategic aviation Tu-22M ? Could they be used for anti-shipping strikes ?

Primary role of the Backfires in Strategic Aviation was heavy SEAD with passive radar homing (ie anti radiation) and coordinate finding versions of Kh-22M... the latter having a nuke warhead as standard.

For naval use there were active radar homing missiles that could be fired at ships and mobile targets, and the anti radiation models could be used in heavy jamming environments.

Very simply the tactic would be the first enemy ships detected would be fired upon by active radar homing missiles... as they attacked the ships would know they had been located and would turn on their radar to improve their situational awareness... so then the Soviets would launch anti radiation missiles to home in on the radar signals, and likely a few nuclear armed missiles to the general coordinates.

so not just the naval aviation backfires but the strategic aviation AS-4 armed backfires can potentially be used for anti-shipping strikes ?

The strategic aviation backfires were armed and trained to attack major comms centres and major SAM sites with nuclear armed Kh-22Ms... they are unlikely to have gotten anywhere near any naval vessels and would not carry the correct model Kh-22Ms even if they did.

Yeah. they also can carry Kh-15S which is anti-shipping variant.

The Kh-15 Kickback is a nuclear armed anti radiation missile. There were plans for an anti shipping model but AFAIK it never entered service... it was purely used in the anti radar/anti SAM role.

The Kh-32 has similar speed but rather better range so it would be unlikely they would bother with the Kh-15 now.

Hypersonic missiles with scramjet motors promise even better performance for the near future.

or naval use there were active radar homing missiles that could be fired at ships and mobile targets, and the anti radiation models could be used in heavy jamming environments.

Very simply the tactic would be the first enemy ships detected would be fired upon by active radar homing missiles... as they attacked the ships would know they had been located and would turn on their radar to improve their situational awareness... so then the Soviets would launch anti radiation missiles to home in on the radar signals, and likely a few nuclear armed missiles to the general coordinates.

nastle77 wrote:

or naval use there were active radar homing missiles that could be fired at ships and mobile targets, and the anti radiation models could be used in heavy jamming environments.

Very simply the tactic would be the first enemy ships detected would be fired upon by active radar homing missiles... as they attacked the ships would know they had been located and would turn on their radar to improve their situational awareness... so then the Soviets would launch anti radiation missiles to home in on the radar signals, and likely a few nuclear armed missiles to the general coordinates.

I know that the Kh-22 AS-4 was designed primarily to attack carrriers but can they be used against destroyers and frigates as well ? They have powerful radars too and average tonnage of a general purpose destroyer in 80s was 4000  tonnes to 4500 tonnes.Are they big enough to be attacked by Kh-22 in the 80s ?

Militarov wrote:

nastle77 wrote:

or naval use there were active radar homing missiles that could be fired at ships and mobile targets, and the anti radiation models could be used in heavy jamming environments.

Very simply the tactic would be the first enemy ships detected would be fired upon by active radar homing missiles... as they attacked the ships would know they had been located and would turn on their radar to improve their situational awareness... so then the Soviets would launch anti radiation missiles to home in on the radar signals, and likely a few nuclear armed missiles to the general coordinates.

I know that the Kh-22 AS-4 was designed primarily to attack carrriers but can they be used against destroyers and frigates as well ? They have powerful radars too and average tonnage of a general purpose destroyer in 80s was 4000  tonnes to 4500 tonnes.Are they big enough to be attacked by Kh-22 in the 80s ?

Size does not matter much, as radar guidance is only terminal phase, it flies in inertial mode till its near enough to "see" the target. I mean, you probably cant attack fishing boat with it, but any ship of major size, sure.

GarryB wrote:

Kh-15S passed testing and trials but was never built past that, but doesnt change fact TU22Ms CAN/COULD carry them Smile. I never said they actually did.

Never heard the anti ship model of Kickback got anywhere near service let alone testing.

GarryB wrote:

true they were probably easier to shoot down even by 80s standard however if like u said shot in salvoes then may overwhelm the defences of any NON-AEGIS cruiser/destroyer

their main problem was their large size meaning that generally you would only have a relatively small salvo unless you got together a decent number of launch platforms.

Of course the Falklands conflict showed single missile launches can get a result and the fact that none of the exocets are believed to have exploded properly makes you think of the damage a Styx could manage with almost three times the explosive and working detonators.

their large size means more flexibility with warhead and guidance types, but their problem remains their launchers are bulky and large.

For coastal defence you could line up hundreds of them or even thousands, which would be devastating.

Even if it doesn't get through it will deplete ready to fire SAMs and if you fired them in waves you could keep a battle group on edge 24/7 to wear them out... each attack would be frightening and nerve wracking... and then at 3am in bad weather you get another attack... this time supported by aircraft and subs...