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    Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 20, 2017 11:40 am

    Could also be a space issue, or perhaps they have decided that they will never task the converted Oscars to the anti sub role and only want them for the anti ship or land attack role... with 72 ready to fire missiles they would be very efficient at either role... they are not likely to use a salvo launch of anti ship ballistic rocket propelled torpedoes because they are not likely to detect that many enemy subs...

    Regarding using 60kgs of fuel to climb... by climbing to higher altitude the thinner but colder air means much more efficient flight at much higher speed and any energy used to get to higher altitude can be recovered in the dive on target... that is why even short airline flights involve climbing to a cruise altitude and then descending... while descending they use a very low throttle setting saving the fuel they used to climb in the first place.

    The net result is lower fuel bill and higher average flight speed.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:55 am

    Well now that they have decided not to upgrade the two Orlan class that means they must be going to build brand new replacements for them... or they will upgrade the Slava class vessels instead.

    Keep in mind the Slava and Kirov classes were built in parallel and offered two alternative paths to cruiser design... the Kirov rather bigger and part nuclear and more expensive but also more capable with largely vertical launch weapons, which was a first for the time.

    The Slava were a cheaper, smaller, more conservative conventionally powered design.

    The new vertical launch weapon systems however probably suit the Kirov more than the Slava, so the Slava might not be getting much in the way of an upgrade either.

    The only large ships that seem to be getting any sort of upgrade are the Udaloys... it will be interesting to see how they move forward...
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:48 pm

    Putting vertical launchers on the Soviet era cruisers is problematic, as they originally have installed angled launchers. Presumably, Kuznetsov will be able to receive one UKSK only due to this incompatibility.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:53 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Putting vertical launchers on the Soviet era cruisers is problematic, as they originally have installed angled launchers. Presumably, Kuznetsov will be able to receive one UKSK only due to this incompatibility.
    kuz does have vertcal.launchers for the cruise.missiles...
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:26 pm

    kuz does have vertcal.launchers for the cruise.missiles...

    They're angled like on Orlan.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:27 am

    The Granit was too heavy to hot launch vertically... it had wings so an angled launch was best as it added the lift of the wings to the equation...

    The point is that when you remove them the space left can be straightened... ie compartments on ships are not angled permanently... you could cut the angle off front and back and make a bigger space for purely vertical systems.

    On the Oscars they just put liners for Onyx missile tubes inside each angled Granit tube and they could easily do that for the Kirov they are keeping and the Kuznetsov... 3 x 20 = 60 missiles for the Peter the Great and 3 x 12 = 36 missiles for the Kuznetsov.

    Now that they are only upgrading the PtG and K then perhaps they can allocate more money to them and do a better job of upgrading them.

    If the UKSK-M universal launcher includes S-350 and S-400 and S-500 SAMs then they will likely put in much more than 10 into the PtG as they wont just be replacing the Granit launchers, they will also be replacing the Rif-M launchers too...
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:33 pm

    I'm not sure if multiple Onyx missiles would fit in a single Granit tube, as their diameter is only 15 cm smaller (70 cm vs 85 cm).

    Regarding hot launch - AFAIK all Russian missiles are cold launched...that's the definition of launch when missiles are in reusable tubes like anywhere in the RuN. If the missile started its engine in the tube already it could hardly be usable again. Let alone the danger of firing other missiles in neighbouring tubes.

    Regarding extra missiles for Peter the Great, this would make sense because the modernization overall will be cheaper as it is in better condition as Nakhimov. So extra funds shouldn't be a problem. The ships is also much younger as Nakhimov so it would actually make sense to invest more in it. IMO such large ship can easily serve 50 years, so some 3 decades are surely in front of it. But leaving some space free also wouldn't be so bad, it's like the Americans and Zumwalt - just leave it for the future weapons. Then installation of new weaponry will be much faster and cheaper as the old ones won't have to be put out.
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    Post  hoom Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:53 am

    Nakhimov had 5*4 Granit launchers, is getting 5*2 8-cell UKSK modules, it leaves apparently unused deck area due to the angled volume under-deck but its still 2* side-by-side Granits -> 1* UKSK.

    K has 6*2 Granits so should be able to upgrade that to 6* UKSK in terms of space but would need new aircraft-friendly hatches.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:30 pm

    I'm not sure if multiple Onyx missiles would fit in a single Granit tube, as their diameter is only 15 cm smaller (70 cm vs 85 cm).

    You are assuming the Granit tube is the same width as the missile body and it is not.

    On the OSCAR class subs they stated they were going to put liner tubes down the granit tubes for Calibr missiles... three per granit tube.... there are 24 Granit tubes on an OSCAR sub, and they stated that the upgrade would allow 72 Calibres or Onyx missiles to be carried instead... pretty clear that 24 + 24 + 24 = 72.


    K has 6*2 Granits so should be able to upgrade that to 6* UKSK in terms of space but would need new aircraft-friendly hatches.

    It would probably have a big deck hatch cover cover for aircraft to operate over it... like the granits.
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:16 pm

    Nakhimov had 5*4 Granit launchers, is getting 5*2 8-cell UKSK modules, it leaves apparently unused deck area due to the angled volume under-deck but its still 2* side-by-side Granits -> 1* UKSK.

    K has 6*2 Granits so should be able to upgrade that to 6* UKSK in terms of space but would need new aircraft-friendly hatches.

    This is an interesting information. So if the navy decides that they need more Kalibr missiles, they can insert Kalibrs in Granit tubes. The question is, can they keep just one or two UKSK and take the aft ones away too free some space for increasing the air wing. IMO it would be worth giving up few missiles to get an extra fighter, especially now that they are producing blue water Kalibr carriers at higher pace.


    On the OSCAR class subs they stated they were going to put liner tubes down the granit tubes for Calibr missiles... three per granit tube.... there are 24 Granit tubes on an OSCAR sub, and they stated that the upgrade would allow 72 Calibres or Onyx missiles to be carried instead... pretty clear that 24 + 24 + 24 = 72.

    Now I checked too an it seems that Chelyabinsk and Irkutsk are actually getting 72 Onyx missiles each. So by the time Kuznetsov is back in service in 2021, those two project 949 AM subs should done, too. So the navy will probably have more than enough Onyx missiles. Where's the point of putting so many missiles on carrier anyway? On the other hand, if rearranging second deck could free up some space for extra aircraft, it would be a sensible change for me.
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    Post  hoom Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:40 pm

    This is an interesting information. So if the navy decides that they need more Kalibr missiles, they can insert Kalibrs in Granit tubes. The question is, can they keep just one or two UKSK and take the aft ones away too free some space for increasing the air wing. IMO it would be worth giving up few missiles to get an extra fighter, especially now that they are producing blue water Kalibr carriers at higher pace.
    Nakhimov Granit tubes were completely removed and VLS UKSK are going in their place, its the Oscars getting tube liners.
    Presumably either could be done on K, the latter may be more attractive, being less work.

    Would be done to maintain its design concept as having anti-ship missiles as main weaponry.
    I don't think there is really such a thing as 'too many missiles'.

    Look at the pic you posted a few back, 7 is the hangar and there is a bunch of stuff between it and the Granits, it'd be a huge effort to rework that interior to provide any more hangar space.
    I could buy turning the volume (& mass allowance) into more tankage for avgas and/or bombs etc though.
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:37 pm


    Look at the pic you posted a few back, 7 is the hangar and there is a bunch of stuff between it and the Granits, it'd be a huge effort to rework that interior to provide any more hangar space.

    Yes I realise that, but perhaps other stuff could be removed, too. They're modernizing 1980s ship and if done properly, a lot of things could be removed, automatised, so less crew is required, too. I believe the most expensive part of modernization is installing expensive new electronics and weapons and even missiles (remember 1 mio $ Zumwalt grenades for main guns)...changing interior organisation perhaps wouldn't be so hard/expensive.

    Kalibrs are good, but having more deck fighters on their single aircraft carrier? It's like comparing S-400 and Su-35. The latter just offers so many options.

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