How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

Love this referendum, wonder if this one was rigged like Crimea

Great article

The EU "is in trouble for two reasons. First, it places utopian dreams of cooperation above the reality of nationalism. People want at least the illusion that they control their own fate. The EU has pretended this deep need does not exist, or that it can be wiped away with glittering phrases and promises.

The second reason the Maastricht project collapsed is the EU itself. It is run by a corps of unelected bureaucrats, many of them unconnected to traditional society and contemptuous of public opinion."

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/06/24/brexit-stern-rebuke-arrogant-elites/Uz5BLaweyL71MHWlTeWobL/story.html

Godric wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Godric wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Godric wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Godric wrote:wrong the First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon is in the process of announcing a new Independence referendum ... during our last referendum the NO campaign stated "What is the process for removing our EU citizenship? voting Yes" Better 2gether and during the last Holyrood election the SNP manifesto had "if any material change in our membership of the EU was to happen then Holyrood has the right to hold another referendum"

It's just PR and empty political talk from the Scottish Merkel look-alike.
They can't just keep voting till one party gets the result it pursues. 2014 is very recent, EU has nothing to do with the place of Scotland in the Union.

you do not understand the Scottish psyche when it comes to the UK .... the NO campaign lied not once but umpteen times ... Scotland is very pro EU and the SNP have no love for Nato ... with the rUK out the EU that could speed up the process of a EU army thus making Nato redundant and reducing America's influence on the EU

All this is fine by me. But they voted to be part of the UK.
Good luck to SNP trying to make such a plea to the rest of the British people. Nicola is not serious at all.

I think you will find she is ... we won't be making a plea to the rest of the UK only Scotland

It's not how it works. Scotland is not Chechnya no matter how hard Merkel's puppet tries.

we never said we are ... but the UK is finished the powers at be in the UK now realise this ... it is the end of the UK and a swift kick in the stane poke for Nato

At this point that Merkel clone is nothing short of Sakhasvili, EU flags everywhere and no brains.
She is quite mentally challenged. Independence but member of EU running deficits like us back in the good old days.

auslander wrote:Two years minimum before UK is allowed to leave EU. Lots of luck, they'll find some way to stop this. Only way out is insurrection and good luck with that.

Think you are underestimating things. Yesterday saw the largest number of UK voters turn out to vote to date, possibly for ever, so important was it. It was not even close, forget percentages, roughly 1,300,000 more people voted out than in.

In many ways some of the EU, including most of the Commission in Brussels, only wanted us in for our money and world stature. Once we were in they hated it, we are just too different in terms of our Law and history. Bit like the nuisance child at a party. Now we have decided, that is it, they won't stop us.

The EU have said today that they want us out quick, after all, the last thing they need whilst they are trying to save the rest of it is a long running UK sore. The official timescale is out within 2 years of giving Article 50 notice, but that time is mainly to allow for negotiations. It could be faster, much faster if both sides want it. In particular, the UK Parliament can reverse the original 1972 Act after which all subsequent Acts based on it will fall, removing virtually at a stroke any obstacles in UK Law. Obviously not quite as simple as that as there would be a lot of administrative loose ends to sort.

Yesterday we changed the World's future, some say it will have a bigger effect over the next few years on more people than any previous one day event in history. Our decision probably made Trump the next President much more certain, which is brilliant as the last thing the World needs is Hilary. It is also possible that it will start the Great Recession as the vast debt in the West is unwound, or at least given the World's central banks someone to blame. It has already had a big effect on financial markets, everywhere but especially in Europe. That was the earthquake, the aftershocks will roll on for a while yet.

After having lived & worked for so many years in the UK it's clear to me that despite what the bleeding heart left liberals have to say the UK chose to leave EU because of just one issue - IMMIGRATION

Brits are tired of immigration from Asia, Africa and of late Eastern Europe and they want to put a stop to it. Fact still remains that these same immigrants were coming into the UK even before UK became a part of the EU and that's primarily because Britain had these same two corrupt mainstream parties.

I hope more & more EU states like Holland, Netherland, Italy choose to leave the EU.

As to the discussion on Scotland, I think the SNP has lost sight of reality in their desperate attempt to become an independent sovereign state.

Do they really regard being in effect a vassal state or province within the EU as being that after the UK has had to vote out to regain it? Are they that desperate for the money they think they will get out of the EU?

The dream has been hit, probably fatally, by the three pincer movements of:
- crashed oil revenue destroying their budget without huge cuts in spending, this is on top of the loss of the England subsidy to Scotland
- the EU facing the loss of £10B a year in funds from the UK causing huge and deep problems
- the EU looking likely to implode
- the EU not having time to even consider Scotland on top of its other problems above plus immigration and Turkey.

It might have been possible 20 years ago, but now?

jhelb wrote:After having lived & worked for so many years in the UK it's clear to me that despite what the bleeding heart left liberals have to say the UK chose to leave EU because of just one issue - IMMIGRATION

Brits are tired of immigration from Asia, Africa and of late Eastern Europe and they want to put a stop to it. Fact still remains that these same immigrants were coming into the UK even before UK became a part of the EU and that's primarily because Britain had these same two corrupt mainstream parties.

I hope more & more EU states like Holland, Netherland, Italy choose to leave the EU.

Not quite, we can, to a degree, stop immigration from outside the EU. It was the inability to stop unlimited immigration from the EU that was the biggest nail in the coffin, there were others but that was, as you say, the big one.

MK you voted for Remain ? I think UK should conduct new elections instead of allowing Boris to lead. Even heard some labour hacks trying a no-confidence motion against Corbyn.

Congratulations to England for their win in referendum to leave EU. This will have huge long lasting consequences in Europe as EU will fall apart in coming years. German and French people will soon kick out Merkel and Hollande from their palaces and we could expect in coming years referendums in Netherland, France, Italy, Greece and maybe some more states to leave EU, what will finish EU as such. It will not be only EU, which will fall apart, but also some states as well UK will cease to exist and we will see independent England, independent Scotland and independent Wales and united Ireland. But also Spain will fall apart, most probably Italy as well and we will see independent Venice Republic again. In time to 2020 Europe will change dramatically. Ukraine will be also divided in Ukraine and Novorussia. Those global shifts will bring to increasing of power of Eurasian Economic Union, to which new states will join, like Novorussia and some Balkan states like Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Bulgaria. Death of this EU does not mean, that European states will not join together again. They will, but it will be a totally new project based on totally new fundaments not to repeat old mistakes from today EU.

max steel wrote:MK you voted for Remain ? I think UK should conduct new elections instead of allowing Boris to lead. Even heard some labour hacks trying a no-confidence motion against Corbyn.

I think Cameron will be replaced with Boris Johnson, who will have the honer to be the last British and the first English PM.

so UK will collapse like USSR

George1 wrote:so UK will collapse like USSR

EU will collapse like the USSR

George1 wrote:so UK will collapse like USSR

This will be a final finish of once mighty British Empire which will remain as England only. Like Roman Empire which still remain in form of Vatican state.

George1 wrote:so UK will collapse like USSR

No, that's possibly the EU, but much later on. Spain and Belgium much sooner.

The usual Brussels' lackeys (SNP & Sinn Fein) came on TV to make a point, but I don't think the British public cares. The UK is pretty united as it is. England, Wales, over half of Scotland and N. Ireland are going nowhere as far as I can see.

medo wrote:

George1 wrote:so UK will collapse like USSR

This will be a final finish of once mighty British Empire which will remain as England only. Like Roman Empire which still remain in form of Vatican state.

There is no Empire since the end of 70s. Where have you been?
UK =/= Empire

medo wrote:

max steel wrote:MK you voted for Remain ? I think UK should conduct new elections instead of allowing Boris to lead. Even heard some labour hacks trying a no-confidence motion against Corbyn.

I think Cameron will be replaced with Boris Johnson, who will have the honer to be the last British and the first English PM.

Definitely didn't vote for remain. Total Brexit supporter for years. Collecting my winnings from the bookies in the morning

A no confidence motion on Corbyn is indeed underway but the problem Labour has it that he has solid support in the Party and Unions, its only the MPs and public who don't rate him. So even if they got the vote to remove him, he would be on the next ballot and would be back in!

I too believe that Boris will be next. He fronted the successful Brexit campaign, is hugely popular in the Conservative Party, he is clever and has charisma (something Cameron didn't have), he attracted Labour voters to become London mayor. They like him in the US, he has a US passport. Boris is perfect to front the Out negotiations, he would probably include the other parties in the team.

The procedure in our leadership is very simple. We don't vote in a person to the role of PM, we vote a party into power and it is invariably its leader that becomes PM. That means that when the leadership changes, like now with Cameron, and last time with Blair followed by Brown, the new leader is an auto shoe-in to be PM. That means, if Boris is the new Leader and it is difficult to see anyone getting near him, he will automatically become PM. He may then have an election but it won't be to confirm him in position, it will be to increase the number of his MPs as the Labour party is in disarray. I doubt it would be this year as he will have to get on with the Out negotiations. Next May would be my bet, when the bulk of them will be done and dusted. They will want to get on with it so we can shut our borders to unlimited EU migration of which there will be a lot now we are leaving the sinking ship.

medo wrote:Congratulations to England for their win in referendum to leave EU. This will have huge long lasting consequences in Europe as EU will fall apart in coming years. German and French people will soon kick out Merkel and Hollande from their palaces and we could expect in coming years referendums in Netherland, France, Italy, Greece and maybe some more states to leave EU, what will finish EU as such.
It will not be only EU, which will fall apart, but also some states as well UK will cease to exist and we will see independent England, independent Scotland and independent Wales and united Ireland. But also Spain will fall apart, most probably Italy as well and we will see independent Venice Republic again. In time to 2020 Europe will change dramatically. Ukraine will be also divided in Ukraine and Novorussia. Those global shifts will bring to increasing of power of Eurasian Economic Union, to which new states will join, like Novorussia and some Balkan states like Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Bulgaria. Death of this EU does not mean, that European states will not join together again. They will, but it will be a totally new project based on totally new fundaments not to repeat old mistakes from today EU.

Thanks and I agree with the first chunk.

It is unlikely that the UK will fall apart. Scotland might be idealistic but the people are not stupid. The support in many fields they get from England is considerable and now that North Sea oil is a busted flush that will become more important to them. They voted to stay in last time when the financial climate for independence was better. Plus England, if it actually wanted to keep Scotland (the politicians do but us the people don't care) the bribe to stay could be increased. Wales won't, its too small and in an even worse financial state. Northern Ireland is more difficult but it will stay, again due to financial issues but also the is no way the English will abandon their Protestant population into a Catholic Ireland, we fought a 30 year civil war about it. So, the UK will be the UK for a fair old time to come methinks.

The rest I tend to agree with. But don't forget that one of the main financial drivers for the Euro was the effective devaluation it gave to the DM giving Germany a huge boost. What is certain is that we are rapidly heading into a period of huge and potentially very dangerous (if the US influences it) period of time when no-one knows what is going to happen. We are entering uncharted water.

One of my mantras for the last few years has been "If anyone thinks the next 10 years are going to be the same as the last 10 then they haven't been paying attention". That prediction is now starting to play out.

KiloGolf wrote:

George1 wrote:so UK will collapse like USSR

No, that's possibly the EU, but much later on. Spain and Belgium much sooner.

The usual Brussels' lackeys (SNP & Sinn Fein) came on TV to make a point, but I don't think the British public cares. The UK is pretty united as it is. England, Wales, over half of Scotland and N. Ireland are going nowhere as far as I can see.

medo wrote:

George1 wrote:so UK will collapse like USSR

This will be a final finish of once mighty British Empire which will remain as England only. Like Roman Empire which still remain in form of Vatican state.

There is no Empire since the end of 70s. Where have you been?
UK =/= Empire

Yup, the UK will not collapse like the USSR but the EU will. It will be a bit tough on anyone not in Northern Europe. The UK may even forge stronger ties with Ireland.

The British Empire ceased to be an Empire after WW2 in the 40s when India left. That was the point the US refused to allow it to continue and the final nail was the Suez crisis. But unlike Rome, which kinda disappeared for a few hundred years, the British Empire has morphed and in the guise of the City of London is still extremely powerful. God only knows what the real wealth of the Rothschild family is worth and what power they wield but it is immense worldwide. Bear in mind that in comparison the 'newly rich' Rockefellers were estimated to be worth $2.5B in the mid 1930's. A handful of Anglo/American families have the financial resources to wield power beyond our imaginations.

Good stuff Max, what's the link? Who is the 'me' in the article?

The one thing that is missing in all the comments is whose fault this catastrophe for the EU is. Many blame us, the British, but whilst correct it is actually wide of the actual culprit.

The real responsibility lies in Brussels. When Cameron went cap in hand (almost pleading) to negotiate a better deal the EU Commission had so badly read the situation that they basically saw that as weakness and sent him away empty handed. We have to believe that either they wanted the UK out, unlikely given the cashflow, or they believed that there was little chance that the UK would actually leave so were unbendingly tough negotiators.

Talk about a Pyrrhic victory, it could go down as one of the worst strategic and costly errors by a major power ever.

JohninMK wrote:Good stuff Max, what's the link? Who is the 'me' in the article?

http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2016/06/24/brexit-leaveniks-have-it-what-next/

He is a former Indian Diplomat. Highly Reputed .

WHy it looks to me ,that Cameron played a double game?
In front of Cameras saying how UK should remain in the EU , but with the fingers crossed
that the leave the EU wins. Cameron could have easily rigged the elections with the
help of bribing people here or there. but he didn't. and when Brexit won , Cameron
seemed very relaxed ,same with his wife and urged the world to respect the decisions
of british people.  So is indeed suspicious , they could have very easily rigged things ,delay the voting ,then prepare the voting centers with a trap. but nothing of that.

He could also have said the results were so close that does not justify leaving. but instead
he ask the world to respect the results and RESIGN so he cannot be pressure to block
the referendum.

After all , people need to remember that the Brexit vote ..was all about something.
about a total rejection of muslin migration. Any one with appreciation for his country to continue to exist as an european nation , even a evil man like CAmeron , should have seen the danger
of Open Borders for millions and millions muslin refugees from the middle east. i cannot image any sane person to support that unless is a billionaire and do not have to worry about security since live in another country . So it was like a red line ,turning UK into the middle east.

So it was like Cameron was saying one thing with words and another with his actions. The same goes for Neocons in United States. there are many who dislike the idea of open borders of USA
and even more for muslin migrants from middle east. and then jumped in the side of Trump.
like Pallin ,Only hard core neocons like Clintons support open borders policy. Since they have properties world wide and not attached to any place.

Im just wondering in what way UK leaving EU , will benefit Russia. ?

Putin comments post ‪#‎Brexit‬ vote here. Good idea to read them in full before journalists decide to edit the shit out of them / make something else up entirely.

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/52264

max steel wrote:Putin comments post ‪#‎Brexit‬ vote here. Good idea to read them in full before journalists decide to edit the shit out of them / make something else up entirely.

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/52264

It's funny how these reporters believe that sanctions are some sort of epic problem for Russia.
Nothing like idiot reporters without a clue. The sanctions are the best thing for Russia since
like forever. Russia's economy is finally properly recovering from the 1990s outhouse pit
environment that was foisted on it by Yeltsin and his NATO patrons.

The amount of delusion in the EU and the USA about Russia's economy and politics
is incredible. They literally believe all the propaganda they spew. But one can't make
decisions based on fiction and gross errors in perception. Let the "west" keep on
with its sanctions.