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    S-400 SAM for India

    RTN
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    Post  RTN Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:33 am

    Pinto wrote:India is going to get its first s400 system anytime now but point is how this system is going to defend itself against swarm drones attack ?

    Upgraded ZSU-23-4 Shilka;
    EW system;
    Counter Unarmed Aircraft System;
    SMASH 2000 Plus rifle mounted systems;
    Igla-S;
    Quad-mounted MANPADS, as well as laser-guided 80mm or 57mm rockets with HE Frag warheads attached to attack helicopters.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:55 am

    RTN wrote:
    Upgraded ZSU-23-4 Shilka;
    EW system;
    Counter Unarmed Aircraft System;
    SMASH 2000 Plus rifle mounted systems;
    Igla-S;
    Quad-mounted MANPADS, as well as laser-guided 80mm or 57mm rockets with HE Frag warheads attached to attack helicopters.

    And such a loadout is not terrible... there are a lot of countries much worse off... even countries that actually use these drones... but the key... the core of the problem is being able to detect the threats in the first place.... drones are very difficult IR and radar targets, so you need optics and very capable radar.... which is why Russia is shooting down drones and Saudi Arabia is not noticing them till they do damage...

    The TOR and Pantsir already had good radars and this experience has led to them being made much better...

    It does not have to be all high tech... simple audio detection systems can play a role in determining when you are under attack.

    Not all attacks take place in fine sunny weather at a convenient time... in fact night and bad weather would make defence harder for most countries.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:53 pm

    Russia starts supplying S-400 air defence missile systems to India



    This means if India deploys S-400 on the Eastern front PLA-Air Force will find it extremely difficult to take off from anywhere in Tibet.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:28 am

    This means if India deploys S-400 on the Eastern front PLA-Air Force will find it extremely difficult to take off from anywhere in Tibet.

    They will be able to take off just fine, it would only be in war time it would be a problem.
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    Post  Pinto Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:49 pm

    https://www.hindustantimes.com/videos/news/after-s400-india-russia-likely-to-hold-talks-on-s500-and-s550-missile-systems-101637638564963.html

    India is likely to discuss potential sale of super-advanced S-500 & S-550 missile systems with Russia next month. Russian President Vladimir Putin is scheduled to visit India in December to hold bilateral dialogue with PM Narendra Modi. A report in Eurasian times said that PM Modi could discuss potential sale of S-500 and S-500 missile systems with Putin. If talks are fruitful, India could become the first foreign buyer of the Russian-made S-500 & S-550 SAM Air Defence Systems. S-500 Prometey (Russian for Prometheus) is already developed & it was first tested successfully in July this year.

    https://www.hindustantimes.com/videos/news/after-s400-india-russia-likely-to-hold-talks-on-s500-and-s550-missile-systems-101637638564963.html?jwsource=cl
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:36 am

    That is their relationship with Russia... if they want anything almost, and are prepared to pay for it.... there are not many things they wouldn't let India buy from them...

    Russia seems to get very little credit for this attitude to their relationship.
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:17 am

    GarryB wrote:That is their relationship with Russia... if they want anything almost, and are prepared to pay for it.... there are not many things they wouldn't let India buy from them...
    Same can be said about China. A far more important partner and certainly a friend of Russia.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:43 pm

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:20 am

    Same can be said about China. A far more important partner and certainly a friend of Russia.

    Not really. No nuclear powered SSGN leases to China, and no partnership offer regarding 5th gen fighter development either, even though the latter fell through.

    Russia has been selling India better and more capable products than are offered to China and there are fewer issues with India regarding IP rights regarding Russian equipment and systems.
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    Post  George1 Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:56 pm

    India deploys first battery of S-400 air defense systems in western Punjab state — media

    https://tass.com/defense/1378439

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Same can be said about China. A far more important partner and certainly a friend of Russia.

    Not really. No nuclear powered SSGN leases to China, and no partnership offer regarding 5th gen fighter development either, even though the latter fell through.

    Russia has been selling India better and more capable products than are offered to China and there are fewer issues with India regarding IP rights regarding Russian equipment and systems.

    India doesn't buy russian stuff to make copies after in huge quantity.

    Chinese are not trustworthy.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:01 pm

    They are.
    In a different way Laughing
    That is why stuff offered to them is always a step behind the Indians.
    medo
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    Post  medo Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:50 pm

    There still remain an important question. With what will India air defense integrate their S-400 and what will defend it? India doesn't have any Pantsir or Tor and S-400 is not compatible with Barak 8 and Spyder. India still didn't learn anything. To get proper IADS, India have to buy Buk and Pantsir, which could work together with S-400. In that case India will get one IADS with S-400, Buk, Pantsir and Igla-S and another strucure with Barak 8 and Spyder and they are not compatible with each other. Where they will place South Korean Biho is another question.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:56 pm

    medo wrote:There still remain an important question. With what will India air defense integrate their S-400 and what will defend it? India doesn't have any Pantsir or Tor and S-400 is not compatible with Barak 8 and Spyder. India still didn't learn anything. To get proper IADS, India have to buy Buk and Pantsir, which could work together with S-400. In that case India will get one IADS with S-400, Buk, Pantsir and Igla-S and another strucure with Barak 8 and Spyder and they are not compatible with each other. Where they will place South Korean Biho is another question.

    That's their major problem. Nothing is integreted.

    They will have to buy pantsir or tor. Very unlikely to see them buy Buks since they already have systems with similar ranges.
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:15 pm

    Barak 8 is a ship based SAM system. Why on Earth should it be integrated with the S-400?

    S-400 FCR is NOT going to guide AKASH, Spyder missile. But will S-400 surveillance radar feed be available to AKASH, Spyder Regiment? If required, YES. But it is not peer-to-peer system. Feeds go into IACCS and based on requirement, feed is shared to subordinates.

    Each ADDC node of IACCS generates air situation picture using ALL radars. And shares it up and down depending on requirement. So, AKASH, Spyder missile regiment will know about approaching bandits even outside of their surveillance radar range.

    IAF has moved away from old ADGES to new AFNet backed IACCS

    IAF has been integrating sensors of diverse COOs into IAFs IACCS.

    Upgraded Shilka and Igla S can provide protection to S 400 https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1264745981578379265?s=20
    medo
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    Post  medo Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:09 pm

    Barak 8 is also land based SAM, Azerbaijan have it. But OK, maybe India have ship based only, although, there are info, India also have land based Barak 8 in air force.

    AFNET was proven mess in time of Pakistani strike after Balakot debacle. it didn't work for air defense as well as IAF Spyder shot down IAF Mi-17.

    This IACCS is not exactly what IADS is, so at the end S-400 will be on its own. Shilka and Igla-S are quite weak protection, specially against modern treats.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:43 pm

    Russian integrate their systems so that they share their data in real time and can use data of a different radar for guiding their missiles.

    India will integrate their system into their indian made command and control but that is not enough.

    Igla and Shilka can't protect S-400. Only Pantsir or Tor can because they are integrated and have a very short response time to deal with low flying close targets and have enough missiles.
    medo
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    Post  medo Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:09 pm

    Isos wrote:Russian integrate their systems so that they share their data in real time and can use data of a different radar for guiding their missiles.

    India will integrate their system into their indian made command and control but that is not enough.

    Igla and Shilka can't protect S-400. Only Pantsir or Tor can because they are integrated and have a very short response time to deal with low flying close targets and have enough missiles.

    This is a point. India made their AFNET and IACCS based on Israeli SAMs Barak 8 and Spyder, as well as on Israeli data links and communications,... I don't think it will be compatible with Russian export version of S-400. Russia will not give their keycodes or allow Israelis to put their nose to S-400 and vice versa.

    China on the other hand have Russian S-300 and Tor-M1 to integrate with and Chinese IADS is made in China with similar standard capable to integrate Russian equipment inside.

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    Post  Sujoy Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:38 am

    medo wrote:AFNET was proven mess in time of Pakistani strike after Balakot debacle. it didn't work for air defense as well as IAF Spyder shot down IAF Mi-17.
    No it didn't. Have explained this a 1000 times on this forum have no interest or desire of doing it again.

    medo wrote:This IACCS is not exactly what IADS is, so at the end S-400 will be on its own. Shilka and Igla-S are quite weak protection, specially against modern treats.

    IAF moved away from old ADGES  to new AFNet backed IACCS. India's IACCS is not based on Israeli SAM systems. India had purchased SAM systems from Russia long before it purchased SAMs from Israel. Check the image - this is what now it looks like. Earlier, each THD-1955 was the main node with supporting radars for low level. Each such node fought its own battle. Not the case now.

    Today every air and ground asset is linked on common system, S-400 will be no different.


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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:00 am

    India doesn't buy russian stuff to make copies after in huge quantity.

    Chinese are not trustworthy.

    They are not stab you in the back untrustworthy... they are more like santas elves... you give them something or sell them something and they will take it apart and try to work out how it works and try to make them for themselves...

    For the MIC of Russia, their focus is defending Russia, not making money... like western MIC companies... so Russia is probably less upset than western countries would be, but it is mildly annoying.

    To get proper IADS, India have to buy Buk and Pantsir, which could work together with S-400. In that case India will get one IADS with S-400, Buk, Pantsir and Igla-S and another strucure with Barak 8 and Spyder and they are not compatible with each other.

    A decent IADS network should be able to incorporate a range of different sensors and different weapons and equipment and make them all work together... they might need adaptors and changes and upgrades to the systems involved but it should be possible.

    Shilka and Igla-S are quite weak protection, specially against modern treats.

    Even upgraded Shilka and Igla-S would be a stretch to stop HARM type weapons and standoff munitions trying to take down your SAMs.



    This is the problem when you pick and choose systems you like rather than seriously plan your defence structure.
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:38 am

    Sujoy wrote:Barak 8 is a ship based SAM system. Why on Earth should it be integrated with the S-400?
    S-400 FCR is NOT going to guide AKASH, Spyder missile. But will S-400 surveillance radar feed be available to AKASH, Spyder Regiment? If required, YES. But it is not peer-to-peer system. Feeds go into IACCS and based on requirement, feed is shared to subordinates.
    Each ADDC node of IACCS generates air situation picture using ALL radars. And shares it up and down depending on requirement. So, AKASH, Spyder missile regiment will know about approaching bandits even outside of their surveillance radar range.
    IAF has moved away from old ADGES to new AFNet backed IACCS
    IAF has been integrating sensors of diverse COOs into IAFs IACCS.
    Upgraded Shilka and Igla S can provide protection to S 400 https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1264745981578379265?s=20

    You didn't get the point, buddy.
    To have S-400 working as planned, you need an echeloned, multilayered defense system, that combines different & linked tools to do a job.
    If you are taking one tool out of a whole cluster, it will still work. But not as planned.
    You are talking awareness, but that is just one part of the whole story. Indians won't have the whole scope of tools needed for the proper functioning of an S-400. You won't have protection for your batteries, you won't have additional coverage, you won't have decoys associated with the system. You will lack complexity & flexibility.
    At the end of the day, it might turn out, that those are easy prey for Pak or China, and that won't have anything to do with the quality of this system.
    ZSU and Iglas are not even close to the fully developed system, and you know that.

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    Post  Sujoy Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:10 am

    GarryB wrote:A decent IADS network should be able to incorporate a range of different sensors and different weapons and equipment and make them all work together... they might need adaptors and changes and upgrades to the systems involved but it should be possible.
    This recent article talks about how India plans to integrate the S-400
    https://www.livefistdefence.com/demystifying-the-s-400-triumf/
    A Definitive Decoding Of India’s S-400 ‘Triumf’
    This explainer provides a breakdown of the S-400 ‘Triumf’ missile system that India recently bought from Russia. We will look at its key building blocks, its place in India’s air defence network, the advantages it brings to the table, its weak points, and how it might be overpowered. To keep things simple, we will mostly steer clear of technical minutiae and performance specifications. They are not that important, and tend to draw attention away from how it all works.

    Integrated Air Defence System Basics

    Before we jump into the structure of an S-400 set, it is important to have a basic understanding of how an Integrated Air Defence System (IADS) works and how its various parts interact with each other.

    Simplified structure of an Integrated Air Defence System (IADS). The areas shaded in light colour show the scan angles of the radars, i.e. the area that they can “see”. The portions shaded in dark colour show the position of the radar beams at a given moment. Imagine the beams oscillating back and forth within the coverage area.
    The basic building blocks of an IADS are a series of radars and command posts. At the highest level are long-range air search radars. These are usually operated at the national or sector level. In the Indian case, the long-range surveillance system is underpinned by THD-1955 radars that can see out to more than 1,000 km. While they possess great range, they are also slow, inaccurate, and prone to obstruction by geographical features. So the network is supplemented with “gap filler” radars for better coverage.
    If the radars form the eyes of an IADS, then a series of “operations centres” or “nodes”, form the brains. An operations centre controls all air defences in its assigned sector. It takes in data from several sources (long-range radars, AWACS, observation posts, and others), deconflicts it, generates a consolidated picture of the airspace, prioritises targets, and issues instructions to various fighting units under its command. Multiple operations centres report up to a national headquarters.

    Situated one level below the operations centre are individual air defence units. We shall use the term “unit” to describe a self-contained formation that is capable of operating all by itself. The Indian Air Force (IAF) calls this a “Squadron”, the Indian Army calls it a “Group”, and the Russian Armed Forces call it a “Regiment”.
    A unit is centered around a command post and a surveillance radar. The radar is similar to the long-range air search radars mentioned above, but is more compact. In the old days, surveillance radars were large devices, and fixed in place. Nowadays, they are more mobile, and can be mounted directly onto trucks or towed platforms. They provide extended range coverage, and are often the first to detect enemy aerial activity. The command post exercises control over its subordinate units—particularly surface-to-air missile (SAM) batteries; but there is other stuff too, like transport vehicles carrying additional missiles, engineering equipment, communications gear, and more.
    The surveillance radar passes preliminary data on intruding enemy aircraft to a Target Acquisition Radar (TAR). TARs are generally shorter in range, but capable of more precision than a surveillance radar. They take the contacts acquired by the surveillance radar and develop precise target tracks.

    The next grouping in the hierarchy is a “battery”, which the IAF calls a “Firing Unit” or “Flight”. Russian Forces call it a “Battalion”. It consists of an engagement radar, also called a Fire Control Radar (FCR), and several missile launchers. An FCR is capable of extreme precision; enough to guide missiles towards individual enemy aircraft. Older FCRs could engage only one contact at a time, but with contemporary sets, around four to eight targets can be simultaneously engaged.
    In this structure, TARs are extremely versatile. With modern hardware and processing, they can substitute for surveillance radars as well as fire control radars, to the point that they are now called multifunction radars. As such, they can be deployed anywhere in the network. At the unit level, they work with the surveillance radar to generate target. At the battery level, they supplement the engagement radar and grant the battery more autonomy. The Indo-Israeli MR-SAM/Barak 8 system showcases this versatility rather well. Instead of dedicated radars for surveillance, target acquisition, and engagement; it uses a single sensor, called the Land-Based MF-STAR, for everything.
    Finally, we come to the missiles themselves. Like radars, they come in all ranges, sizes, and types; but unlike radars, they are not distributed throughout the command chain. They are always assigned to batteries, and directed by the FCR towards individual targets.

    The longest ranged missiles are large, expensive, and unwieldy—the farther away a target is, the harder it is to find and shoot down. So, they are reserved for “high-value targets” that operate well behind the frontline—AWACS aircraft, refueling tankers, electronic warfare platforms, and the like. They may also be fired to “scare” the enemy, scatter carefully planned formations, and perhaps score a few lucky kills. Medium-range missiles bring attackers under accurate fire, and are intended to shoot down enemy aircraft before they can release their payloads. Short-range missiles, also known as quick-reaction missiles, provide a third layer of protection. While they are unable to prevent the system from being penetrated, they are invaluable in protecting key facilities and nodes from attackers that filter through the first two layers of defence.
    The arrangement appears slow and clumsy, but it isn’t. It is largely automated, datalinked for seamless communication, and can function like a well-oiled machine when operated by well-trained personnel. An IADS is neither impregnable, nor meant to secure every inch of friendly airspace all the time; but when designed and used properly, it can be lethal and can whittle down an enemy over long periods of fighting.

    Enter The S-400
    Having understood the structure of an IADS, it becomes easier to decipher the S-400 and its various components. The first thing to note is that the S-400 is not a “SAM”, but an entire family of radars, command posts, missiles, and support elements that can be assembled into combat units to protect large patches of airspace. Developed by Russia’s Almaz Central Design Bureau, it was inducted into service in mid-2007, and has been exported to China, Turkey, and India.

    Configuration of a typical S-400 regimental set/squadron. Emphasis on “typical”. Exact numbers may vary. Each squadron can contain up to four batteries, with each battery supporting up to twelve launch vehicles.

    The central element of an S-400 unit is a surveillance radar—the 91N6E ‘Big Bird’. It is paired with a command vehicle, the 55K6E, which houses operator consoles from where an air battle is managed. Together, the Big Bird and the 55K6E form a command post called the 30K6E. The Big Bird can double up as a target acquisition radar, but the 96L6E ‘Cheese Board’ is available if a dedicated device is needed.

    A command post can manage as many as eight individual batteries (also known as firing units), although two is more common. Each battery is equipped with a 92N6E ‘Grave Stone’ radar for target acquisition as well as fire control, and can be supplemented with a Cheese Board for surveillance and tracking. A single battery usually consists of four missile launch vehicles, but is capable of supporting up to twelve. Each launch vehicle has four tubes containing ready-to-launch missiles. Four different missile types are available, capable of engaging targets flying at various ranges and altitudes.

    Apart from this, there are support vehicles to store, transport, and reload missiles; site survey vehicles, engineering equipment; electronic sensing measures (ESM) equipment; power generation stations; and other gear.

    The radars, operator cabins, and command posts are all connected to each other via secure datalink. The battle management system automates all routine functions like assessing targets, deconflicting data, building and presenting a tactical picture of the airspace, and so on. Human input is generally limited to command-and-control functions.
    The entire setup is road-mobile and its components can be packed up for relocation within minutes. It can also be airlifted and redeployed across the length and breadth of the country on short notice. The radars are modern electronically scanned arrays, designed to resist enemy jamming and to prosecute stealthy targets. On the whole, the system is designed to repel airstrikes as well as ballistic missile salvoes; all while maintaining a high degree of survivability against a Suppression of Enemy Air Defences (SEAD) campaign.

    One Part of a Whole
    Information in the public domain suggests that the S-400 is a highly capable system; possibly the most capable in the world at this time. It has been designed with the lessons of Operation Desert Storm in mind, and advertised as being able to fend off the type of offensives that destroyed the Iraqi IADS in a matter of days.
    For India, however, the S-400 will be a small part of a much larger whole. And that “whole” is itself in the middle of a mini-revolution.
    The IAF’s command, control, and communications (C3) backbone being extensively modernized, with a pronounced emphasis on enhancing situational awareness and streamlining communication. A key piece of this upgrade is a network-centric air defence environment called the Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS). The IACCS soaks up information from a multitude of sources (Army and Navy radars, the civilian radar network, as well as the IAF’s own systems) and fuses it together to generate a comprehensive tactical picture of the battlespace. This information is distributed to Air Defence Control Centres (ADCCs), which direct the larger air battle by issuing orders to individual air defence units and fighter squadrons. When the Pakistan Air Force struck back at India in February 2019, air defence operations were directed from an ADCC in Barnala, Punjab.
    The IACCS rides on a communications network called AFNet. This high-bandwidth network replaces the old radio communications infrastructure with a secure, jam-resistant, and high-bandwidth information grid. Together, the IACCS and AFNet are transforming what was once a collection of discrete sensors, command centres, and SAM units into a unified “system of systems”—an entity that is not only cohesive but also flexible and resilient enough to maintain that cohesion when degraded by enemy assault.

    As the brains of the system are being overhauled, so are its eyes and fists. The air force’s obsolete land-based radar network is being steadily upgraded with a slew of homegrown radars to cover a vast range of duties and possibilities. A new generation of airborne sensors are also being acquired to help the IAF see farther out, and with greater precision than before. At the sharp end, the obsolete S-125 ‘Pechora’ and 9K33M2 ‘Osa-AK’ systems are being replaced with MR-SAM (medium-range), Akash (short range), and SpyDer (short-range/quick reaction) batteries. Even as these missile systems enter service, new blocks are under development—these being the XRSAM, Akash NG, and QRSAM.
    It is within the ambit of this warfighting structure that the five squadrons of the S-400 system being acquired from Russia will operate. Each squadron will nominally be able to operate as an independent, self-contained fighting unit; but it will truly come into its own when melded with the IACCS—feeding data up the chain of command and receiving information/instructions from ADCCs.

    Points of Failure
    As it stands, the S-400 is expected to fill a major void in the Indian air defence umbrella by enabling air defence at extended ranges, well beyond the reach of the SpyDer, Akash, and MR-SAM systems.
    However, there are limitations—affecting land-based air defences in general and the S-400 in particular. Land-based air defences are reactive, not very mobile, and unable to see beyond the curvature of the earth (called the radar horizon). Contemporary systems are designed to be quickly packed up and repositioned, allowing for a degree of concealment against attackers. However, they still remain relatively static in comparison to attack aircraft—they have to be fixed in position to operate. They are also fundamentally defensive assets, which naturally cede much initiative to the attacked. Recent history is littered with examples of SAM systems shattered by cyber and electronic offensives, decoys, radar-seeking missiles, stealthy aircraft/munitions, and low-level tactics.

    Furthermore, surface-based systems have short radar horizons, which makes it difficult for them to engage low-flying targets. Terrain features like hills and valleys only compound this problem by creating voids that attackers can exploit. The S-400 and Akash systems partially address this problem by optionally mounting their surveillance radars on masts for improved coverage; but the utility of a mast varies depending on the geography. For example, a mast-mounted radar is still not high enough to see past obstacles in mountainous or hilly regions.

    The S-400’s potential shortcomings are no less concerning. For one, it is a new system, untested in battle. This might not appear to be a major concern since very few modern weapons have seen combat against a peer-level threat. However, the S-400’s predecessor—the S-300—gave a poor account of itself in Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. One of Armenia’s S-300 batteries was successfully attacked by Azerbaijani drones and loitering munitions, and showed itself incapable of denying airspace to the enemy. The other, and more concerning problem is that the S-400 is a foreign system that has been sold to India’s adversaries. Its electronic and kinetic characteristics will be known to them, and they will use that knowledge to develop exploits against it.

    At the end of the day, the S-400’s effectiveness in the Indian context will depend on its degree of fusion with the IACCS, which will help it overcome many of the challenges mentioned above, and also on how innovatively and aggressively it is used. There is little doubt that it is a very advanced system, and will prove to be a major enhancement to the IADS. However, it is not a silver bullet, and it can be countered by an intelligent adversary using the right tactics and technology.

    GarryB
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    S-400 SAM for India - Page 11 Empty Re: S-400 SAM for India

    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:18 am

    This explainer provides a breakdown of the S-400 ‘Triumf’ missile system that India recently bought from Russia. We will look at its key building blocks, its place in India’s air defence network, the advantages it brings to the table, its weak points, and how it might be overpowered. To keep things simple, we will mostly steer clear of technical minutiae and performance specifications. They are not that important, and tend to draw attention away from how it all works.

    Sounds like the author of that piece thinks S-400 is too capable and perhaps a less capable system... Like Patriot or Aster might be a better choice for India... HAHAHAHHA...

    The Indo-Israeli MR-SAM/Barak 8 system showcases this versatility rather well. Instead of dedicated radars for surveillance, target acquisition, and engagement; it uses a single sensor, called the Land-Based MF-STAR, for everything.

    Bundling all your radar capabilities into one radar/one vehicle is what the Soviets did with the SA-6 units, and the Israelis used HARMs to take out the single radar vehicle in the unit and could then go in with F-16s with dumb bombs to take out the 6 TEL vehicles that were then totally helpless with its search and tracking radar taken out.

    BUK replaced KUB and has tracking radars on each TEL, so even if the search radar is defeated by being destroyed or just jammed each vehicle can still engage air targets...

    Search radars normally operate on completely different frequencies from tracking radars for lots of good reasons... a tracking radar normally has a shorter than than a search radar but then you want a search radar to have the maximum possible range because the earlier you spot the target the more prepared you are and other SAM sites can be warned about them too. Tracking radar doesn't need to be able to track targets at distances much greater than the missile you are launching can reach..... extra tracking range is useless.

    The longest ranged missiles are large, expensive, and unwieldy—the farther away a target is, the harder it is to find and shoot down.

    The longest range missiles are intended to shoot down enemy aircraft before they launch their standoff weapons and also the AWACS and JSTARS like platforms supporting the enemy attack as well as the inflight refuelling aircraft also making the attack possible.

    The longer ranged missiles allow you to control much larger areas of airspace and are incredibly useful even if you only use them for monitoring the air situation like Russia is with their S-400 battery in Syria... they could see exactly what Israel was doing at the time they were doing it... sadly they were not able to contact the Syrian SAM unit that fired on Israeli aircraft that managed to shoot down the Russian intel plane, but that facilitated Russia incorporating the Syrians into a proper IADS for a change... and the Israelis have struggled ever since.

    Medium-range missiles bring attackers under accurate fire, and are intended to shoot down enemy aircraft before they can release their payloads.

    Not in this day an age... missiles like Kh-31 and Kh-35 and other new types have ranges greater than 200km, which means medium range missiles will spend most of their time engaging ordinance released by enemy aircraft outside their range.

    The image at the top of the page seems to suggest the 360 degree search radar for the IADS is not based with the S-400 but is some other system and that the radars with the S-400 only have 20-40 degree view angles each limiting their ability to engage targets.

    Such an image would be pretty accurate for the Patriot system with angled launchers that can only engage targets within 120 degrees of the angle the launcher is pointed at, but for S-400 it has full 360 degree engagement performance and vertical launch tubes that can engage targets coming from any direction.

    However, there are limitations—affecting land-based air defences in general and the S-400 in particular. Land-based air defences are reactive, not very mobile, and unable to see beyond the curvature of the earth (called the radar horizon)

    The S-400 are part of a network... if that network can see a target 350km away that is behind a mountain range from the S-400 it should still be able to engage that target with the target data from other platforms... the missiles are ARH and do not require a lockon before launch.

    Contemporary systems are designed to be quickly packed up and repositioned, allowing for a degree of concealment against attackers.

    S-400 can be packed up and moved when required... if mobility was a real issue the S-300V4 is tracked and very mobile even across rough country...

    However, they still remain relatively static in comparison to attack aircraft—they have to be fixed in position to operate.

    The targets they will be defending can't move either and will also be static.... it can't launch missiles on the move... so rolling around all the time might prevent it being attacked but the targets it is supposed to be protecting will be left wide open to attack... which is a fail for any air defence system.

    They are also fundamentally defensive assets, which naturally cede much initiative to the attacked.

    They are as defensive as you want them to be... with adequate defences like TOR and Pantsir regiments protecting them you can move them well forward to engage enemy aircraft deep behind the front line... you can use them to create a no fly zone over the front line... which would be enormously valuable to any military force.

    Recent history is littered with examples of SAM systems shattered by cyber and electronic offensives, decoys, radar-seeking missiles, stealthy aircraft/munitions, and low-level tactics.

    Recent history is littered with examples of small mobile light mobile.... did I say mobile SAM systems being defeated because they were poorly used and not properly supported.

    Israeli performance against Syria with F-35s and their best standoff weapons is actually rather pathetic and AFAIK they haven't even used any S-300 missiles yet.

    Furthermore, surface-based systems have short radar horizons, which makes it difficult for them to engage low-flying targets. Terrain features like hills and valleys only compound this problem by creating voids that attackers can exploit. The S-400 and Akash systems partially address this problem by optionally mounting their surveillance radars on masts for improved coverage; but the utility of a mast varies depending on the geography. For example, a mast-mounted radar is still not high enough to see past obstacles in mountainous or hilly regions.

    For an article that seemed to really emphasise the IADS network that SAMs operate within it has a very short memory now suggesting S-400s are now somehow an exception that will be vulnerable.

    Saudi Arabia had THAAD and PATRIOT and all sorts of brand new US fighters and expensive shit as well as all sorts of european air defence things like missiles and gun systems and they didn't even see drones and subsonic cruise missiles coming till they hit their targets...

    However, the S-400’s predecessor—the S-300—gave a poor account of itself in Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. One of Armenia’s S-300 batteries was successfully attacked by Azerbaijani drones and loitering munitions, and showed itself incapable of denying airspace to the enemy.

    I really don't think we can learn anything actually useful about the conflict there... the Armenian leader was a fucking idiot... it was a war that Armenia seemed very keen to not get involved with.

    Expecting the S-300 to massacre drones and loitering munitions is interesting... didn't you just say S-400 would not be good against cruise missiles and low flying threats?

    The other, and more concerning problem is that the S-400 is a foreign system that has been sold to India’s adversaries. Its electronic and kinetic characteristics will be known to them, and they will use that knowledge to develop exploits against it.

    So India can no longer buy American equipment because Pakistan has bought American equipment too... Turkey sound very happy with their S-400s and want to produce their own missiles locally...

    In fact they chose the S-400 over 100 F-35s and participation in building components for the F-35...

    At the end of the day, the S-400’s effectiveness in the Indian context will depend on its degree of fusion with the IACCS, which will help it overcome many of the challenges mentioned above, and also on how innovatively and aggressively it is used.

    This guy is a genius... the performance of the system will depend how they use it... some one should write that down...

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    RTN
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    S-400 SAM for India - Page 11 Empty Re: S-400 SAM for India

    Post  RTN Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:36 am

    GarryB wrote:Such an image would be pretty accurate for the Patriot system with angled launchers that can only engage targets within 120 degrees of the angle the launcher is pointed at, but for S-400 it has full 360 degree engagement performance and vertical launch tubes that can engage targets coming from any direction.
    How exactly can S-400 engage targets 360 degree when several targets will be over the horizon? S-400 is part of a network. The network needs to detect targets over the horizon first before the S-400 can engage it.

    This is why S-400 won't be able to detect over the horizon targets in Syria.

    The same can be said about PAC-3 as well. If the network of which PAC-3 is a part of can detect OTH targets then PAC-3 can engage them.
    Arkanghelsk
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    S-400 SAM for India - Page 11 Empty Re: S-400 SAM for India

    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:53 pm

    360 degrees means all around. When an S400 missile launches , it launches vertically, and then angles in mid air in the direction it needs to go, giving it 360 degree coverage.

    Patriot is angled launcher meaning it can only cover the direction in which it is pointing, a 120 degree arc. USA could not develop a missile system with the launch parameters to guarantee 360 degree coverage.

    Also NEBO M , Yenisei, and Conteyner give S400 OTH capabilities

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