Russia-Iran S-300 missile systems deal

As their navy expands they will want friendly ports around the place so they don't need to keep having to return home all the time, which can involve long trips and lots of time in transit instead of operational.
You will do well to start talking with Montenegro about the mutual benefits of such a possibility.
The purpose of such arrangements is that they are rock solid reliable places to send ships that wont suddenly become hostile overnight.

Personally I think you interest in SAMs is well founded, but your plans to simply buy from the shelf are a little short sighted.
I think your angle should be getting together with the Russians to develop new SAM systems that would be relatively cheap but also capable, able to reach high up into the air so air defences cannot be overflown, but also a mix of capable but also cheap to use in numbers.
I am thinking of an entire air defence network designed to be simple and capable that can make a NATO type attack expensive for the attacker.
There will not be S-500s or even S-400s in this network because such installations are too hard to hide. You want elements that can operate 24/7 in all weathers that don't rely on large easy to target radars. Passive sensors, IR and electronic, difficult to jam or target with anti radiation equipment.
Long thin multi stage SAMs that can reach long distances and can be deployed in a way to not look like SAMs... a row of single launchers along a street to look like telephone poles... but all linked to a non centralised AD network based on the internet but kept seperate so that if one part goes down it doesn't take the rest with it.

For smaller missiles you want something like Pantsyr that can fire on the move and is compact enough to be a very difficult target.

You guys know what you did to evade NATO airpower... just add passive sensors and missiles that can reach high and far that are as easy to move and hide as possible.

You performance would have gotten an A+ if you had just shot down so many aircraft they couldn't hide it.

Another factor too is that a lot of the aerial targets you will want to deal with will be UAVs and UCAVs which are small elusive but not hard to intercept or hard to bring down targets. Most of them will lack situational awareness and will keep straight and level so simple and cheap missiles could be used.
The US is developing a swarm type UCAV that can be launched in large numbers, something like the laser guided 57mm gun fired missiles the Russians are working on would be a great way to deal with such threats as their available munitions capacity would be high and their rate of fire would be high and jamming them would be tricky. Yet they would be relatively cheap and mobile.
A larger calibre longer range model in 125mm calibre might be useful for towed gun positions firing at aerial targets as an example too.

The point is too that the missiles you develop with the Russians on this basis will not only be useful for Russias traditional clients who often face NATO or US aggression, but also for Russia herself to fill gaps with capable but cheaper mobile easy to hide and move weapons.
Russia have backed out of T-95 development because their focus is on mobility... the Tunguska weighs about 34 tons so there is plenty of room for weight reduction.
Modifications of the BTR series to allow a rear troop compartment and rear ramp access should also make possible a variant with the engine and driver in the front plus a small turret in the centre with small phased array radars and thermal sighting systems and the rear can hold a large pallet of vertical launch missiles like TOR and later Morfei perhaps. (The latter is a new fire and forget lock on after launch IIR guided missile based on a new AAM for the PAKFA).
Or engine at the front and turret in the middle with 100 rounds of 57mm anti aircraft laser guided shells with another 2-3 reloads in the rear of the vehicle would be ideal for dealing with UCAV swarms which will effectively blind the enemy which relies on such recon means.

Well...there are many solutions, although my opinion is that the best solution for us is to buy like 60 Pantsyr S1's with 12 acquisition radars and 6 command posts and all the reloading vehicles, repair vehicles and all other support vehicles, that will ensure good saturation for short range. Then buy up to 10 batteries of Buk-M3 (if that is the one that has range of up to 70km and ceiling of up to 25km and ARH for missiles) for medium range. The bridge between those two should be old Kub's that we're even now upgrading to ARH missiles and Buk radars, I think Buk-M3 or M2 radars, they are supposed to have a range of around 40km and ceiling of around 20-25km, they should be good for supporting both short range and medium range systems, plus they are proven in battle and our men are very good with them! For short ranges we already have a number(around 25, but you never know, our military still has a lot of secrets) of 9K31 Strela-1 (SA-9), around 20 9K35 Strela-10 (SA-13) wich were upgraded, have a slightly better range and are more effective, and many Igla MANPADS alongside with many different types of Strela MANPADS. We also have Boffors AAA wich is old but keeps aircraft above 3000m, because it is deadly and it is proven to be very effective against cruise missiles, they have been recently upgraded. I think that all that with soe additional upgrades and aforementioned procurement, especially saturation with Pantsyr's and Buk-M3's would be enough for a start (plus a number of upgraded S-125echora/Neva's, being also upgraded right now to ARH-fire and forget ability), and then later buying also things that you suggested plus some S-300PMU2 Favorit's or maybe even S-400...but that would be much later.

I think that would be good enough of a deterrent even for powerful alliances, or at least would buy our ground forces ability to conduct their activity with less stress and more aggression! What is your opinion on this Gary, would it be worth a damn?

I think the performance of Serbian air defence is proven and the addition of weapons with better reach it will be even more formidible.
It was like a builder building a house with the right tools by using improvisation and skill.
When you get the right tools... well I don't think NATO would be that stupid, but then I didn't think they would be that stupid the first time either.

TEHRAN, Sept. 26 (Xinhua) -- The Iranian lawmaker Alaeddin Boroujerdi said Sunday that the country would sue Russia for the S- 300 missile deal if Russia fails to deliver the system to Iran, the semi-official ISNA news agency reported.

"The issue can be sued if Russia does not provide Iran with missile system and in such a case compensation should be paid to Iran," Chief of Iran's Parliament National Security and Foreign Policy Commission told reporters.

"We hope Russia abide by its commitments," Boroujerdi was quoted as saying.

Russia has scrapped plans to deliver S-300 air defense missile systems to Iran as they fall under the U.N. sanctions, Russian Chief of General Staff Nikolai Makarov said Wednesday.

The S-300 is an advanced mobile missile system which can shoot down aircraft and cruise missiles from up to 150 km away.

Iran inked a deal with Russia to purchase the S-300 weaponry systems in 2007, however Russia delayed the missiles' delivery. The United States and Israel have strongly opposed the sale of the missile to Iran.


Iran to sue Russia for not delivering S-300 missile system: MP[/QUOTE]

I sometimes don't understand, what's reason for Russia changing its position?? Just because of Israel diplomatic meeting?

Last time, Russia said it is important to protect Iran in its interest...

Glad we have partner trustworthy China over Russia or US sanctions.

Russia can hardly deliver S-300 missiles to Iran while Iran is under UN sanctions that prohibit the delivery of such systems.
I also suspect that China will not violate a UN security resolution either.

If Iran meets the requirements laid down by the UN resolution they will get their S-300 missiles. If they don't, then they wont.

For God's sake US is closing on upon China via Afghanistan/Iraq & sure Russia must think CAUTIOUS. Look Russia must make counter-friends in the Middle-East & what be the best option than Iran; so much oil/gas & wealth.
Russia will have large financial problems solved with frienship from Iran & why should Russia have to care about UN when US not

Oh, lets just throw away all the books, all the laws then. Someone has to make a stand, someone has to follow the rules. Just because the U.S. doesn't mean everybody doesn't.

IronsightSniper wrote:Oh, lets just throw away all the books, all the laws then. Someone has to make a stand, someone has to follow the rules. Just because the U.S. doesn't mean everybody doesn't.

you can only play by the rules if you are a part of the game.
Sure US dont want Russia to be a player

I think Russia is just playing the game.

I rather doubt the US is so stupid as to think it can attack Iran with no consequences.

If the US or Israel really wanted to attack Iran and did so I give them enough credit to do so in a way that any new air defence systems will be evaded or their effect minimalised as much as possible.

Remember Russia probably doesn't want a nuclear armed Iran as much as the US, so forcing them to do specific things to prove their intentions are not what the US and Israel claim they are would actually be a good thing for Iran.

@GaryyB

Remember Russia probably doesn't want a nuclear armed Iran as much as the US, so forcing them to do specific things to prove their intentions are not what the US and Israel claim they are would actually be a good thing for Iran.

Russia has nothing to do with nuclear armed Iran by the way the nuclear leap Iran enjoys is because of Russia. Take the example of Israel it is nuclear armed because of its ally USA then why can't Iran be an analogy!!

I am sure that Russia will be much more worried of a nuclear armed Sunni countries like Iraq; SaudiaArabia than a Shia nuclear armed region like Iran; because the formers ones are the US worshippers

Israel is a very tight ally with the US.
There are some very powerful people in the US that want Israel to survive no matter what.

There is no similar relationship with Russia and Iran.

Iran is a customer that has bought a few things like Mig-29s and Su-24s and civilian nuclear power stations.

Iran is nothing like as rich as Saudi Arabia and it hasn't bought nearly as much equipment from Russia as it could have if they were buddies.

I am sure if given the choice between a nuclear armed Iran or a nuclear armed Pakistan or Saudi Arabia Russia would prefer a nuclear armed Iran, but then I don't think they want anyone to have nuclear weapons except them and I am sure most other countries that possess nuclear weapons think the same... it is quite normal.

Personally I don't fear a nuclear armed Iran and I think if that is what it takes for the US to start treating them with the respect they deserve then it would probably be a good thing.

I think what would be best would be for Iran to comply with the stupid demands of the US and then build 20 new nuclear power plants in Iran. The stable electricity supply should greatly benefit their economy and free them from dependence of exporting their crude oil and getting it processed into fuel and then importing it back to generate electricity.

Everybody in the volatile region of MiddleEast is buying sophisticated weeaponry from wherever it can get. If Iran demands be taken seriously by Russia;sure you can expect further lucrative deals!!
And I do believe that Iran never wanted Russia to get allied with US & its allies; it did created a great unrest in Iranians who really expected Russians to be different.

I am sure if given the choice between a nuclear armed Iran or a nuclear armed Pakistan or Saudi Arabia Russia would prefer a nuclear armed Iran, but then I don't think they want anyone to have nuclear weapons except them and I am sure most other countries that possess nuclear weapons think the same... it is quite normal

Be pragmatic~~
Necessity is the mother of invention Garry; in this hour of unrest Russia must invent friends (Iran) & thats the necessity

It would be very much in Russias interests to have good relations with Iran and I think the reverse is true that it will be good for Iran to have good relations with Russia.
I don't think Russia will bend over backwards to make such a friendship work however and if Iran tries to force Russia to choose then I think that will create the answer without needing to think about it.
The Russians have dropped their old communist ideology and are now looking for economic and political and military ties with pretty much anyone. Their problem is that most have not let go of the cold war and there is a stigma attached to the country that seems to have inherited the negative image the west has spent the best part of a century creating for the Soviet Union.

The reality is that while the west has a lot of money they are polticially speaking a minority on this planet and I think it would be more healthy for Russia and the world if Russia started forming its own relationships with more of the world.
The best way for Russia to create such relationships is to break the wall NATO is currently building around it by building up its navy so it can have an international presence.

The only reason I can come up with is that Russia is reluctant boosting military ties b/w Iran/Russ is because of its collaboration with Israel in DRONE sector & with France in NAVAL sector....

nightcrawler wrote:The only reason I can come up with is that Russia is reluctant boosting military ties b/w Iran/Russ is because of its collaboration with Israel in DRONE sector & with France in NAVAL sector....

It is a bit more complicated than that. Russia is an international player and we do not want our companies coming under sanctions for doing business with Iran. Since most companies are state owned, most of our companies could be subject to tough measures. It is really a matter of choosing, business with Iran or business with the West. The West is far more valuable. For drones, French technology and any other imports we have to make, but it can also hit civil aviation, oil and gas, rail, machinery... many other sectors. We import a lot of items. Playing nice with the UN can open doors to even better technology transfers.

Russia to return $166.8 million prepayment to Iran for S-300 missile defense system

RIA Novosti

17:14 07/10/2010

NICOSIA, October 7 (RIA Novosti) - Russia owes Tehran only the prepayment of $166.8 million for S-300 air defense missile systems, Rostekhnologii head Sergei Chemezov said on Thursday.

The contract to supply Iran with the missile system, one of most effective in existence, was signed at the end of 2007. Russia was to supply five divisions' worth of S-300PMU-1 for $800 million. Russia canceled the contract to supply Tehran with S-300 air defense missile systems because of UN sanctions against the Islamic Republic.

"We have received $166.8 million prepayment under the contract and according to a paragraph on force-majeure circumstances, we are obliged to return this amount," Chemezov said. "We are not obliged to return a [cent] more," he added.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev signed an order on 22 September on compliance measures with UN sanctions against the Islamic Republic over its nuclear program, which the West believes is aimed at developing nuclear weapons. Iran denies the allegations.

Medvedev's order banned export to Iran of armored vehicles, military aircraft, helicopters and ships.

The missile systems originally destined for Iran have been built, and could possibly be supplied to a third country, Chemezov said, with money from any sale being used to compensate Tehran.

The S-300 system is designed for defending high-value objects such as military bases and command and control centers. It can engage all kinds of aerial targets including ballistic and cruise missiles, up to a range of 150 kilometers and an altitude of 27,000 meters.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iran/2010/iran-101007-rianovosti01.htm

It makes sense for Russia to have good relations with countries near its borders... once saakashvili is gone I think Russia will even be happy to renew relations with Georgia despite Georgias aggression 2 years ago.

At the end of the day Russia will want good economic relations with everyone, but at the moment the west seems to have a vendetta against some countries. Now some of those countries Russia has traditionally had very good relations with like Vietnam and Cuba and Myanmar. Some other countries Russia has not had such good relations with like Iran, and North Korea. Good relations is a two way street and Iran has a streak of independence in it that sometimes puts Russia in the same light as the west as a former colonial power.

To be honest the main sticking point is the US and Israel point to Iranian support of various groups in the Middle East and call them terrorists and therefore Iran supports terrorists. Iran and to a degree Russia see those groups as freedom fighters though in Russias case it is more an enemy of my enemy is my friend... much like US cozying up with the Taleban type groups and turning a blind eye to Saudi support of groups far worse than Hamas.
I don't expect the Iranians to stop and I don't expect the Russians to care that they don't stop... it is not their problem and Iran needs lots of new stuff and perhaps some joint ventures on development. The F-14 wont fly forever and nor will the F-5s.
If Iran was smart it would do the things demanded of the US to the level required to get the sanctions removed and then buy up all the weapons they need to upgrade their military and then the first time the US tries to control the Iranian economy by trying to restrict supply of Uranium fuel the Iranians can declare foul play and go back to making their own to avoid the sanctions of the US.

Iran to Get Money Back
08 October 2010
Reuters
NICOSIA, Cyprus - Russia plans to pay back a $166.8 million advance payment from Iran for S-300 air defense missiles after canceling the sale to comply with UN sanctions, a top Russian official said Thursday.

President Dmitry Medvedev banned the delivery of the high-precision air defense system last month, saying it would violate sanctions adopted by the UN Security Council in June.

The United States and Israel had urged Moscow to scrap the deal, fearing Iran could use the system to protect nuclear facilities that they suspect are part of a weapons program.

"We received an advance on this contract of $166.8 million," Sergei Chemezov, head of the state corporation that runs Russia's weapons exporter, told reporters in Cyprus. "We are not obliged to return another kopek beyond this. … We have annulled the contract, and we will return advance payments."

Chemezov heads Russian Technologies, which owns the Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport.

Russia has used the missile contract as a lever in diplomacy with Iran and the Western nations pressing to punish Tehran over its nuclear program, which Iran says is intended exclusively for power generation.

Moscow's support for a fourth round of UN sanctions was part of a gradual shift closer toward the tougher stance that the United States and European Union have taken toward Iran.

Russia, which has built Iran's first atomic power plant, supports Western efforts to make Iran prove its nuclear research is purely peaceful, but strongly opposes any use of force.

Iran is Russia's biggest trading partner in the Middle East. Bilateral trade totaled $3 billion in 2009, of which Russian exports — mainly ferrous metals, cars and arms — accounted for 93 percent.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/busine...ck/418976.html

Yeah......no body is surprised here. Russia proves yet again that it is an unreliable partner.

It blows one's mind that how did they even managed to deliver their half ass'd support on the Bushehr NPP after 15 odd years of jerking off. Probably money back guarantee on that one too......

well i guess the iranians take their money to china and try purchase something off of them. russia mustn't need the cash

maybe the israeli drone tech means ahelluva lot more to them???

pity russia is weakened so much that it now has to be mindful of sanctions threat towards her indigenous stste run companies...

blow to iranian plans though that's for certain...

Crod, Russia needs Iran a whole lot more than Iran needs Russia. The trade between the two is a mere $3 billion.

Iran has never purchased decent weaponry from Russia ever. Neither has any been offered by Russia to Iran. There is no history between the two. In a few more years Iran will be totally self sufficient in weapons. Actually it already pretty much is......None of its neighbors or enemies have the guts to attack or invade it. The last war in Lebanon showed just how powerless the vaunted IDF was when facing a few hundred well trained Hezbollah fighters. Israel couldn't even fight them.....how the hell would it fight Iran?

All the empty rhetoric and threats out of Israel and the US has turned out to be psyops bullshit. Israel has more to worry about Hezbollah, let alone Iran. The US stands defeated in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and is currently hanging on in both those countries as a courtesy of the Ayatollah's in Tehran. Each day that passes by the whole world contemplates an inevitable U.S. economic collapse, and its diminished political and economic role in world affairs.

So S-300's or not, they don't matter.......they don't alter the balance of power in the Persian Gulf, but Iran's 75 million religiously motivated people, its government and its massive arsenal of surface to surface missiles and its asymmetrical warfare trained Revolutionary Guard matter.

Even without the S-300's Iran remains the most powerful, resource and energy rich and ascendant country in the ME.

mate, i'm well aware of the iranian indigenous military products...30 yrs of sanctions has actually worked in their favour not against them as planned.

s-300 would complete their air def platform.

i know perfectly well the israelis or the u.s. will not attack...the former is still wiping the blood off their nose from 2006.

as a side note, i wonder what, if any fallout will result from this? poor move on russia's front, it shows how weak they have become...

Yeah......no body is surprised here. Russia proves yet again that it is an unreliable partner.

Yeah... what a bunch of b@st@rds those Russians are!!!!

I mean obeying international law like that when they should be doing everything for their best friends in Iran. Those same best friends that fought against them in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

The reality is that Russia and Iran are not best friends. They were business partners in some areas and still are but Russia still has to obey international law even if Iran chooses not to.

I can understand Iran not obeying all these demands about its policy on nuclear weapons but it is in Irans national interests to do what Iran has to do.

IT IS NOT IN RUSSIAS NATIONAL INTERESTS TO HAVE TO SELL IRAN S-300 MISSILES.

It blows one's mind that how did they even managed to deliver their half ass'd support on the Bushehr NPP after 15 odd years of jerking off. Probably money back guarantee on that one too......

I am sure the West Germans did a much better job than the Russians did because the Russians took a half finished project and then finished the job. The reactor is now working AFAIK. I rather doubt the West Germans would have done the same with a half started Russian reactor... or even no reactor and starting from scratch.

well i guess the iranians take their money to china and try purchase something off of them. russia mustn't need the cash

They can try that, but China is bound by international law too so if they do sell a couple of hundred million dollars worth of missiles to Iran it will cost them in international sales for violating international law.

maybe the israeli drone tech means ahelluva lot more to them???

Israel has already refused to sell more and they didn't even sell new stuff in the first place. I rather doubt that has anything to do with this.

pity russia is weakened so much that it now has to be mindful of sanctions threat towards her indigenous stste run companies...

So it is weakness to abide by international law?

Russia is not buying allies through ideology and will rely on international trade. If it ignores international law then that trade will be severely restricted and will limit their growth.

Russia owes Iran nothing... Iran has a few Mig-29s that flew there from Iraq and a few Su-24s that did the same. They bought a few more of each from Russia but we are not talking best friends and buddies. Iran wanted a nuclear powerplant started by West Germany completed and the only country willing to do that was Russia.
There were lots of issues and it took a while but it is now done.

Crod, Russia needs Iran a whole lot more than Iran needs Russia.

Russia doesn't need Iran at all. There are a large number of things Russia can provide that Iran might buy but Iran does not seem interested in most things Russia has to offer so if Iran were to become less friendly to Russia then Russia has not lost much.
Iran has calculated it needs about 20 more NPPs which would be worth a lot of money but I rather doubt Iran has the money to pay for 20 NPPs so it is not as exciting as it first appears.

In a few more years Iran will be totally self sufficient in weapons.

I rather disagree. Twin tail finned F-5s are hardly state of the art and the F-14s will not continue to fly forever.
They have made very impressive progress and seem to be able to maintain complex aircraft and keep them in service, but their AD system is dated.

If it was just about their neighbours then I would agree they are secure, but the problem for Iran is that the US and Israel don't like it and will take any opportunity to have a go. The US is selling lots of weapons in the region with the claim that they are balancing the neighbours of Iran against Irans military power.
Sounds more to me like they are buying allies and moving assets closer to the next theatre of war for the US and NATO.

The last war in Lebanon showed just how powerless the vaunted IDF was when facing a few hundred well trained Hezbollah fighters. Israel couldn't even fight them.....how the hell would it fight Iran?

Fighting a state is much easier than fighting guerillas. Israel could simply fire cruise missiles from its submarines to hit targets throughout Iran.
Obviously the retaliation and escalation would make it not really worth it but try telling that to an American or an Israeli and the Sh!T talk will start.

Even without the S-300's Iran remains the most powerful, resource and energy rich and ascendant country in the ME.

They are not that energy and resource rich.
The key to Iran is that they don't want big powerful western companies going in and taking the oil from under the ground and leaving them with the clean up bill like most big powerful western companies like to do. For that they are the enemy of the west... the west wouldn't function if it couldn't go into an area and pinch all the good stuff. They have been doing it for centuries as colonial powers. Now however the damn natives are becoming aware that that black liquid you can't eat or drink actually has a lot of value and they want a share. The problem is that in Iran it wasn't just the leaders that wanted a share but all the people of the country that wanted a share.

as a side note, i wonder what, if any fallout will result from this? poor move on russia's front, it shows how weak they have become...

I rather doubt it. If Iran really was a Russian ally like say Serbia, then there is no way they would allow international sanctions be imposed on them. The fact is that Russia doesn't want Iran to have Nuke weapons either.
If Iran was sensible they would simply follow the instructions and do as they are told and then they can buy up the air defence stuff they need, from whomever they want.

well i guess the iranians take their money to china and try purchase something off of them. russia mustn't need the cash

They can try that, but China is bound by international law too so if they do sell a couple of hundred million dollars worth of missiles to Iran it will cost them in international sales for violating international law.

China will sell whatever it wants to whoever it wants, so long as it suits China, period. It may just suit China to do so in this instance though the systems will not perform as good as the Russian ones.

pity russia is weakened so much that it now has to be mindful of sanctions threat towards her indigenous stste run companies...

So it is weakness to abide by international law?

Yes it is when the US and other nations flaunt it but Russia has to abide by it...

Russia is not buying allies through ideology and will rely on international trade. If it ignores international law then that trade will be severely restricted and will limit their growth.

Yes, and that proves my point dose it not? Russia is a much weaker nation with very little financial and so much political clout against the US and EU...

Yes, and that proves my point dose it not? Russia is a much weaker nation with very little financial and so much political clout against the US and EU...

I rather doubt that flouting international law will make the Russians appear strong... look at how strong North Korea is internationally.

There is an old saying... don't sh!t where you eat.
The cost of missing out on selling Iran S-300 missiles is a few hundred million dollars. The potential cost internationally of ignoring international law would be billions of dollars worth of legitimate contracts from customers that will actually pay on time.

Iran is not a huge customer of Russian equipment so it is not a great loss. If somehow the Indian government had international sanctions imposed against it then I am sure the Russians would find a way of getting them anything they wanted. It would probably be the same for other good clients.

Iran is a client, but not a good client for Russia.
If they suddenly started obeying international law and decided they wanted 500 Su-27SMs to replace their American air fleet and they wanted to completely replace their AD network Radars, SAMs and everything else with Russian stuff then Russia might be more inclined to be less swayed by the US and Israel... but Iran not only can't afford such things... I rather doubt they want a lot of Russian stuff anyway. They seem to like the Mig-29s and Su-24s from Iraq, but they also don't seem in any hurry to replace their F-14s or F-5s.