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In 2025 they can start the development of the Borei-B and build them after 2027, to replace the "old" Borei. Turn the 3 Boreis into cruise missile/hypersonic missile/combat drone carriers.
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Project 955: Borei class SSBN
Hole- Posts : 10818
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Isos- Posts : 11314
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Hole wrote:In 2025 they can start the development of the Borei-B and build them after 2027, to replace the "old" Borei. Turn the 3 Boreis into cruise missile/hypersonic missile/combat drone carriers.
Or husky SSBN so they can unify the design of SSN, SSGN and SSBN with a husky family like they are doing with plateforms like armata for army and su-27 variants for airforce.
Hole- Posts : 10818
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Nuclear reactors. Propulsion System. Electronics. Many parts are already unified in the Borej and Yassen classes. The main difference are the Placement of the sonar domes and torpedo tubes and some external encasements. With Husky this will also be unified, but then the can call their subs like they want. Husky SSBN. Borei-B.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13302
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Isos wrote:Hole wrote:In 2025 they can start the development of the Borei-B and build them after 2027, to replace the "old" Borei. Turn the 3 Boreis into cruise missile/hypersonic missile/combat drone carriers.
Or husky SSBN so they can unify the design of SSN, SSGN and SSBN with a husky family like they are doing with plateforms like armata for army and su-27 variants for airforce.
With 6 more Boreis to start construction at the same time first Husky is to be laid down I think that any potential SSBN version of Husky will have to wait until standard Husky subs reach double digit number of units.
It pretty much coincides with build schedule. Starting with 2023 they will start working on first of six new Boreis. In 2021 they should start building first Husky SSN.
So no new SSBN platform until at least mid-2030s (they won't be needing one anyway before then since even earliest Boreis will still be looking good by that point)
So they will have Borei as SSBN and Husky as SSN/SSGN (don't know if those 30 VLS tubes qualify it as full SSGN so lets call stock Husky SSN for now since similarly equipped Yasen is placed in that group too)
Only question is what will be (if any) full SSGN model? I am talking about replacement for Oscar-class since upgraded ones will carry 72 cruise missiles.
If they choose to pursue full-sized SSGN platform will they go with Husky or Borei derivative?
Let's say that they decide to go with Borei. If they go with cheapest and quickest option and just load 6 cruise missiles per one Bulava tube they will get 96 missiles capacity.
Lets say that they want to match upgraded Oscar capacity and load 72 anti-ship missiles. That still leaves them 24 land-attack missiles as bonus.
Best of all they can go from Oscar-class type to Ohio-class type depending on the missile load. Full land-attack or full anti-ship. Yes, 96 missiles is much less than what Ohio carries but 96 is more than enough for what Russia needs.
Then again, they could go extra mile and redesign Borei with Bulava tubes fully replaced with UKSK. This would greatly increase missile load and create more or less full Ohio SSGN style submarine while still being able to do the job that Oscar SSGNs do simply due to Borei's default specs (speed, stealth, depth, torpedo tubes etc...)
Other option is to use Husky as basis for SSGN. Resulting sub would be more advanced but they would have to wait at least extra decade or more until they get one so I personally lean towards using Borei as SSGN platform.
Isos- Posts : 11314
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Of course a SSBN husky would come very lately. Borei are all new. They should be very good for the next 20 years.
Upgrades can add another 6-7, max 10 years. Oscars are already pretty old and almost outdated. In ten years they will need new ones. Maybe they should see if it is not better to build new ones with more VLS on a unified plateform so that the cost is high on the short term but much cheaper on the long term. In ten years they will have to replace the Oscars so the cost will be the same but with Oscars modernization in addidtion.
SSGN are the future of russian tools for anti ship and anti carrier operations. The number of aircraft carrier are growing around them with US navy but also UK, China and maybe france getting all 2 carriers in the very near future. Plus all those "helicopter carriers" armed with f-35 and more easily accessible to more countries.
So the SSGN are more than needeed for them.
SSN should be used for sub hunting and only few VLS are needed for that.
Only question is what will be (if any) full SSGN model? I am talking about replacement for Oscar-class since upgraded ones will carry 72 cruise missiles.
Upgrades can add another 6-7, max 10 years. Oscars are already pretty old and almost outdated. In ten years they will need new ones. Maybe they should see if it is not better to build new ones with more VLS on a unified plateform so that the cost is high on the short term but much cheaper on the long term. In ten years they will have to replace the Oscars so the cost will be the same but with Oscars modernization in addidtion.
SSGN are the future of russian tools for anti ship and anti carrier operations. The number of aircraft carrier are growing around them with US navy but also UK, China and maybe france getting all 2 carriers in the very near future. Plus all those "helicopter carriers" armed with f-35 and more easily accessible to more countries.
So the SSGN are more than needeed for them.
SSN should be used for sub hunting and only few VLS are needed for that.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13302
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Isos wrote:Of course a SSBN husky would come very lately. Borei are all new. They should be very good for the next 20 years.
Only question is what will be (if any) full SSGN model? I am talking about replacement for Oscar-class since upgraded ones will carry 72 cruise missiles.
Upgrades can add another 6-7, max 10 years. Oscars are already pretty old and almost outdated. In ten years they will need new ones. ........
In that case Borei SSGN is the way to go especially since initial batch of Huskies will be needed to replace Akulas and other older SSNs.
Borei SSGN is definitely quickest, cheapest and most reliable option.
AlfaT8- Posts : 2470
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Hole wrote:In 2025 they can start the development of the Borei-B and build them after 2027, to replace the "old" Borei. Turn the 3 Boreis into cruise missile/hypersonic missile/combat drone carriers.
Wait??
What's preventing the Drone sub from launching vertically?
PapaDragon- Posts : 13302
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About Borei-A also having 16 missiles, there might be some tweaks to that theory:
...Note that on at least one of the origial Pr.0955s the missile hatches themselves do not line up exactly with the hatch covers visible on the side of the submarine....
http://www.hisutton.com/Borei-A.html
Hole- Posts : 10818
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Old "Charlie" class was called SSGN and it had only 8 missiles.
AlfaT8: was just a suggestion. Combat drones are so "in" today.
AlfaT8: was just a suggestion. Combat drones are so "in" today.
AlfaT8- Posts : 2470
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Hole wrote:Old "Charlie" class was called SSGN and it had only 8 missiles.
AlfaT8: was just a suggestion. Combat drones are so "in" today.
I get it, but honestly, what's stopping Poseidon from being launched vertically from a tweaked Borei?
Poseidon has a reported diameter of 1.6 and Bulava has a diameter of 2, so this plausible, but pointless, since there are still the START restrictions on SSBNs.
Best to use another platform.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6021
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AlfaT8 wrote:Hole wrote:Old "Charlie" class was called SSGN and it had only 8 missiles.
AlfaT8: was just a suggestion. Combat drones are so "in" today.
I get it, but honestly, what's stopping Poseidon from being launched vertically from a tweaked Borei?
Poseidon has a reported diameter of 1.6 and Bulava has a diameter of 2, so this plausible, but pointless, since there are still the START restrictions on SSBNs.
Best to use another platform.
but Poseidon is only one type of drones. They can do more tasks (mines, escorts, "anti torpedo fighters" , scouts, or even UAVs)
PapaDragon- Posts : 13302
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Hole wrote:Old "Charlie" class was called SSGN and it had only 8 missiles......
Those days are gone, SSGN today is 30 missiles or more.
AlfaT8 wrote:......
I get it, but honestly, what's stopping Poseidon from being launched vertically from a tweaked Borei?
Poseidon has a reported diameter of 1.6 and Bulava has a diameter of 2...
Because Poseidon is twice the length of Bulava
GarryB- Posts : 39129
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So they will have Borei as SSBN and Husky as SSN/SSGN (don't know if those 30 VLS tubes qualify it as full SSGN so lets call stock Husky SSN for now since similarly equipped Yasen is placed in that group too)
First of all 30?
Odds are it will use UKSK launchers... this is a new design so there should not be any problem including the current standard missile launcher in their newest SSN design.
And why would it not count as an SSGN... it could carry another 40 missiles to launch through torpedo tubes if that was needed...
Let's say that they decide to go with Borei. If they go with cheapest and quickest option and just load 6 cruise missiles per one Bulava tube they will get 96 missiles capacity.
No, that does not make sense.
The Oscars kept their existing launchers because their existing launchers are between the inner and outer hull and there was no enough room to fit UKSK launchers without creating "bulges".
On Borei they should be able to remove the Bulava tubes and replace the section with UKSK launchers. Bulava tubes require access to the tubes to check the missiles and for maintenance.... for the UKSK launchers there is no need to access the missiles so you can seal off the section and pack as many as you want in there...
Oscars are already pretty old and almost outdated. In ten years they will need new ones.
Oscars are very capable vessels and will be good for more than the next 10 years...
Zircon will make them even more impressive...
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Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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Russia to build 6 more Borei-As, Cancels Project 955B:
But I wonder if it's true that they can operate outside of Arctic & Okhotsk Sea basions w/o being detected, as been claimed in the Russian media. IMO it's not even necessary as it would extend their time at sea & expend more $.
Borey going through ice at 36:51:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR2t3iXUB4E
The Borei-A is good enough, the $ saved can be invested elsewhere."After the proposals on building Borei-B nuclear-powered submarines were analyzed, a decision was made to give them up as the construction of such submarines does not meet the cost-efficiency criterion. Instead of them, Borei-A class submarines were included in the final version of the state armament program through 2027," the source said. According to the source, "the construction of the new series of Project 955A submarines will begin at the Sevmash Shipyard after 2023." "In all, six Borei-A class submarines are planned to be built. They will be operational with the Northern and Pacific Fleets. When the series is built, the Navy will operate 14 new nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines, namely 11 Borei-A class and three Borei-class submarines," the source said.
TASS does not have any official confirmation of this information.
http://tass.com/defense/1005356 http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/may-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6245-russia-cancels-project-955b-will-build-six-more-project-955a-submarines.html
But I wonder if it's true that they can operate outside of Arctic & Okhotsk Sea basions w/o being detected, as been claimed in the Russian media. IMO it's not even necessary as it would extend their time at sea & expend more $.
Borey going through ice at 36:51:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR2t3iXUB4E
Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add video)
PapaDragon- Posts : 13302
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Fresh photos of Vladimir Monomakh (top) and Alexander Nevsky (down), we don't get many of them here because Yuri keeps hogging all the glory
Stealthflanker- Posts : 1410
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Isos wrote:
Or husky SSBN so they can unify the design of SSN, SSGN and SSBN with a husky family like they are doing with plateforms like armata for army and su-27 variants for airforce.
you don't. as Husky is designed by Malakhit design bureau while Borei is product from Rubin.
Just like Airborne Radar and Aircrafts. As long as there are 2 design bureaus (used to be 3, but Lazurit no longer make any attack boats) You will not likely see "unification" of Platform.
Odds are Husky will be an attack submarine or like Yasen, carrying cruise missile. but will never be an SSBN. Rubin OKB In other hand will never really make real attack boat like Bars (akula).
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6021
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Stealthflanker wrote:
you don't. as Husky is designed by Malakhit design bureau while Borei is product from Rubin.
Just like Airborne Radar and Aircrafts. As long as there are 2 design bureaus (used to be 3, but Lazurit no longer make any attack boats) You will not likely see "unification" of Platform.
Odds are Husky will be an attack submarine or like Yasen, carrying cruise missile. but will never be an SSBN. Rubin OKB In other hand will never really make real attack boat like Bars (akula).
actually this all concept about Husky to be build modular-wise. Russian navy wants unification as far as possible. I'd bet that regardless which one gets order second one will be subcontracted. For example Maklhit SSN/SSGN and Rubin SSBN
PapaDragon- Posts : 13302
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Okay we can definitely put discussion about number of missiles on Borei-A to bed now, it's 16 SLBMs
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I have been thinking about Borei-B project: they put it on back burner for now in favor of 6 more Borei-As which is excellent move but at some point Borei-B will come into play.
What are the odds that they build first several of them in SSGN version (Ohio style) as replacement for Oscar-class SSGN? Or even to do the same with Borei-A?
It would be damn good, fast and efficient way of updating SSGN fleet if you ask me.
verkhoturye51- Posts : 438
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It seems as the Russians want Husky to be the new universal submarine, with SSN, SSGN and possibly even SSBN variant later on. With plans for SSGN Husky existing at the moment, it makes little sense to work on new SSGN designs in my opinion.
On the other hand, I've been wondering, how far has the Oscar modernization gone so far? I've read that they'll be capable of launching Zircons. Any information on that?
On the other hand, I've been wondering, how far has the Oscar modernization gone so far? I've read that they'll be capable of launching Zircons. Any information on that?
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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IMO, the Oscars won't get them- it's possible, but not feasible.The long time required for the rebuilding of the ‘battlecruiser’ Admiral Nakhimov may suggest a change in function. ..
Why this has taken over 15 years could be explained in one of two ways. The first is that the fall in the Russian economy (exacerbated by sanctions) has sapped resources away from the maintenance and overhaul budget, with priorities going into bringing new ships into service. The second option is that the delays have been managed to incorporate new generation weaponry, such as the 3M22 Zircon anti-ship missile with twice the range and 50% greater speed than the P-800. https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/a-different-kind-of-bear-a-summary-of-defence-modernisation-in-russia/
The missile will be incorporated into the Kirov-class battlecruiser Admiral Nakhimov in 2018, and the Pyotr Velikiy in 2022. The ships will have their P-700 Granit anti-ship missiles replaced with 3S-14 vertical launch systems capable of holding P-800 Oniks and Kalibr missiles as well as the Zircon; each battlecruiser will be equipped with 72 such missiles. After the upgrade, the battlecruisers can carry 40–80 anti-ship missiles of different types. Admiral Grigorovich-class frigates will have possibility to carry 8 while the Admiral Gorshkov-class frigates 16 Zircon missiles. The missile may be used also by the planned Lider-class destroyer as well as by other undersea and aerial platforms including the Yasen-class, Husky-class attack submarines and the Tu-160M2, ..PAK DA strategic bombers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M22_Zircon#Design
verkhoturye51- Posts : 438
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This source suggests they're getting Kalibr. And since Gorshkovs are able of launching Kalibr, Onyx and Zircon missiles, it looks like all three types fit the same tube. So Oscars should have at least theoretical capability of launching Zircons.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6021
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verkhoturye51 wrote:This source suggests they're getting Kalibr. And since Gorshkovs are able of launching Kalibr, Onyx and Zircon missiles, it looks like all three types fit the same tube. So Oscars should have at least theoretical capability of launching Zircons.
No they dont. They all fit UKSK but unlikely in 72 pieces to P-700 launch tubes. Antey 949 wont be able to use P-800 it they to carry 72 missiles. Pls. note that Kalibr has also supersonic model.
Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:55 am; edited 1 time in total
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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This source also omits the Oscars as the likely platform: https://sputniknews.com/military/201707171055619054-russia-zircon-missile-development/
With current shortage of surface ships, Oscars armed with Kalibrs can attack more sea & land targets.
https://sputniknews.com/military/201706071054404989-russian-subs-upgraded-with-kalibr/
They r noisier than the other subs & require SSN escort if deployed to shadow CSGs. Even if the theoretical capability of launching Zircons was there, it may not be practicable.
With current shortage of surface ships, Oscars armed with Kalibrs can attack more sea & land targets.
https://sputniknews.com/military/201706071054404989-russian-subs-upgraded-with-kalibr/
They r noisier than the other subs & require SSN escort if deployed to shadow CSGs. Even if the theoretical capability of launching Zircons was there, it may not be practicable.
dino00
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Russian submarine fleet capable of launching missiles armed with hypersonics and nukes will be ready for war by 2024
A new Russian nuclear-powered submarine fleet, capable of launching ICBMs armed with hypersonic weapons, will be ready for war by 2024, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of a U.S. intelligence report.
In order to finance eight of the submarines, Moscow cut funding for other military modernization programs, such as the nation's surface vessel fleet, according to the person, who spoke to CNBC on the condition of anonymity.
The Borei II, also designated Borei-A, is a fourth-generation nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine that has the potential to launch 200 nuclear or hypersonic weapons at one time
WASHINGTON — A new Russian nuclear-powered submarine fleet, capable of launching intercontinental ballistic missiles outfitted with hypersonic weapons, will be ready for war by 2024, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of a U.S. intelligence report.
In order to finance eight of the submarines, Moscow cut funding for other military modernization programs, such as the nation's surface vessel fleet, according to the person, who spoke to CNBC on the condition of anonymity.
The Borei II submarine, also designated Borei-A, is a fourth-generation nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine that is slated to join the Russian Navy's Northern and Pacific Fleets. The U.S. Navy, by comparison, boasts one of the largest submarine fleets in the world, with 14 Ohio-class vessels tasked with the nuclear deterrence mission.
The Borei II, which is the first class of submarines developed by Russia since the Cold War, can launch 20 Bulava intercontinental ballistic missiles. Each Bulava can carry a bomb yielding 100 to 150 kilotons, which is approximately 10 times more powerful than the Little Boy atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.
What's more, unlike a traditional missile, which carries one warhead, the Bulava missile is capable of carrying up to 10 nuclear and hypersonic weapons on its tip. That means one Borei II submarine could potentially launch 200 hypersonic weapons, a threat the U.S. is currently unable to defend against
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/21/russia-sub-fleet-capable-of-launching-hypersonics-will-be-ready-by-2024.html