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    Syrian Civil War: News #3

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    victor1985


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    Post  victor1985 Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:55 pm

    [quote="SturmGuard"]In your opinion, are the Syrian government+allied forces concentrating on territory capture and positional warfare, or instead aim to maximise enemy losses in manpower and material? Personally, looking at the map of Syria, I would concentrate on literally wiping out every surrounded hostile area, then strive to methodically clear one front, one major objective at a time. [/quote]
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    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:57 pm

    Militarov wrote:Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 TTjzYb0

    Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 7Xk9w6A

    Generally speaking looks abit grim.

    Seriously can we ban this cruelty to normal human minds with this Twitter and other crap bullshit posts to be used here as some sort of evidence?

    Seriously since when did the fucking intelligent people used Twitter especially posts from women who have no jack shit idea about military as a source?

    We had a twitter researcher before didn't end well just nonsense talk, so stop this crap and get some real sources or refrain of insulting us with this garbage.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 Empty Re: Syrian Civil War: News #3

    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:01 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 TTjzYb0

    Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 7Xk9w6A

    Generally speaking looks abit grim.

    Seriously can we ban this cruelty to normal human minds with this Twitter and other crap bullshit posts to be used here as some sort of evidence?

    Seriously since when did the fucking intelligent people used Twitter especially posts from women who have no jack shit idea about military as a source?

    We had a twitter researcher before didn't end well just nonsense talk, so stop this crap and get some real sources or refrain of insulting us with this garbage.

    She actually is on the money. There's no FSA except for the Tow teams.
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:03 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 TTjzYb0

    Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 7Xk9w6A

    Generally speaking looks abit grim.

    Seriously can we ban this cruelty to normal human minds with this Twitter and other crap bullshit posts to be used here as some sort of evidence?

    Seriously since when did the fucking intelligent people used Twitter especially posts from women who have no jack shit idea about military as a source?

    We had a twitter researcher before didn't end well just nonsense talk, so stop this crap and get some real sources or refrain of insulting us with this garbage.

    She actually is on the money. There's no FSA except for the Tow teams.

    Those are claims not a source and certainly no evidence. Using twitter only decreases reputation of posters and forum. Using wikipedia does not give credibility either and from time to time wikipedia has actually articles that can meet reality with their claims that does not mean it is a source for information. It is just not the case.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:07 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 TTjzYb0

    Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 7Xk9w6A

    Generally speaking looks abit grim.

    Seriously can we ban this cruelty to normal human minds with this Twitter and other crap bullshit posts to be used here as some sort of evidence?

    Seriously since when did the fucking intelligent people used Twitter especially posts from women who have no jack shit idea about military as a source?

    We had a twitter researcher before didn't end well just nonsense talk, so stop this crap and get some real sources or refrain of insulting us with this garbage.

    She actually is on the money. There's no FSA except for the Tow teams.

    Those are claims not a source and certainly no evidence. Using twitter only decreases reputation of posters and forum. Using wikipedia does not give credibility either and from time to time wikipedia has actually articles that can meet reality with their claims that does not mean it is a source for information. It is just not the case.


    What is not the case? Jund Al Aqsa was all over the place, they actually lost the 25/30 guys that got blown on the approach (including) the armoured VBIED that broke the straight. Once AQ was in contact, SAA fought for less than an hour on all west Morek and started retreating North and South.
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 Empty Re: Syrian Civil War: News #3

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:07 pm

    There are loads upon loads of good Twitter accounts - for Syria you have Ivan Sidorenko, Hassan Ridha, SAA Reporter, Leith Abou Fadel, quite Neutral Elijah Magnier and Pieter van Ostaeyen, for Ukraine you have Sergey Bobkov, Nina Byzantina etc. To name just a few, there are more fo them.

    No need to blame Twitter per se.
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    Post  Guest Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:16 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Generally speaking looks abit grim.

    Seriously can we ban this cruelty to normal human minds with this Twitter and other crap bullshit posts to be used here as some sort of evidence?

    Seriously since when did the fucking intelligent people used Twitter especially posts from women who have no jack shit idea about military as a source?

    We had a twitter researcher before didn't end well just nonsense talk, so stop this crap and get some real sources or refrain of insulting us with this garbage.

    Jenan is actually exceptional journalist, 99% of her informations were proven as right, some of them are even first hand... And you would know that if you actually ever tried reading anything we posted here regarding her efore.

    Also only fraction of stuff i post have anything to do with twitter, also i said long ago "Whoever doesnt like what i post is free to block me" so do it and stop flaming around. Unless you have better info directly from SAA HQ to share with us? If you do, share it, if not keep your "i am better than any of you" stuff four yourself, alright?

    Since this is forum i can post whatever sources i have for DISCUSSION, if you like only your sources you shouldnt use forums as platform, go and write blog, okay?

    Few "old" members here apparently have egoistic attacks sometimes, why dont you ban everyone so 10 of you can enjoy eachothers company since we are all so bad and s.hit.

    If you want to ban me, feel free.... coz that means so much to me....i wont be able to sleep.


    Last edited by Militarov on Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:17 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    What is not the case? Jund Al Aqsa was all over the place, they actually lost the 25/30 guys that got blown on the approach (including) the armoured VBIED that broke the straight. Once AQ was in contact, SAA fought for less than an hour on all west Morek and started retreating North and South.

    Have we reached Idiocracy where One-liners are now a source of information on the battleground of non participants that do not write articles to give a good insight of the actual state of the battlefield and frontline conditions, shifting soils dominated by sides, no i see here people using a bitches Twitter as a source along with other nonsense despite non of those claims are directly linked with evidence for users to check for themselfs. If you gonna go the path of stupidly screenshoting Twitter crap account one-liners without factual source to back up those claims you are just showing your own low standards of your sources for informations.

    Get some standards with links to evidence and elaborated information with actual content not to Twitter one-liners of people who can not even make a proper sentence.
    avatar
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    Post  Guest Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:19 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 TTjzYb0

    Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 7Xk9w6A

    Generally speaking looks abit grim.

    Seriously can we ban this cruelty to normal human minds with this Twitter and other crap bullshit posts to be used here as some sort of evidence?

    Seriously since when did the fucking intelligent people used Twitter especially posts from women who have no jack shit idea about military as a source?

    We had a twitter researcher before didn't end well just nonsense talk, so stop this crap and get some real sources or refrain of insulting us with this garbage.

    She actually is on the money. There's no FSA except for the Tow teams.

    Those are claims not a source and certainly no evidence. Using twitter only decreases reputation of posters and forum. Using wikipedia does not give credibility either and from time to time wikipedia has actually articles that can meet reality with their claims that does not mean it is a source for information. It is just not the case.

    Bold for me word EVIDENCE in my post please i have hard time finding it. Go to forum that does not use twitter if you can find one.
    avatar
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    Post  Guest Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:26 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    What is not the case? Jund Al Aqsa was all over the place, they actually lost the 25/30 guys that got blown on the approach (including) the armoured VBIED that broke the straight. Once AQ was in contact, SAA fought for less than an hour on all west Morek and started retreating North and South.

    Have we reached Idiocracy where One-liners are now a source of information on the battleground of non participants that do not write articles to give a good insight of the actual state of the battlefield and frontline conditions, shifting soils dominated by sides, no i see here people using a bitches Twitter as a source along with other nonsense despite non of those claims are directly linked with evidence for users to check for themselfs. If you gonna go the path of stupidly screenshoting Twitter crap account one-liners without factual source to back up those claims you are just showing your own low standards of your sources for informations.

    Get some standards with links to evidence and elaborated information with actual content not to Twitter one-liners of people who can not even make a proper sentence.

    As i was com officer i can tell you that reports from frontline are always one line, you know, actual information that goes to the division command, maybe in Germany they like to write essays i would not know. Whole point of twitter is to put info in 140 characters, if you do not like it, AM I FORCING YOU TO USE IT? No. End of story, either use what i posted as reference or leave me alone.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:36 pm


    Here is some actual news to get everyone's mind of one little setback that will not affect the outcome of the war (even though everyone here is losing their **** for some reason... Suspect )



    "US ends arms supply to Syrian Kurdish militia, official says"

    http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_us-ends-arms-supply-to-syrian-kurdish-militia-official-says_403413.html

    Solncepek
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    Post  Solncepek Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:42 pm

    Jaysh Al-Fateh Officially Captures the Strategic Town of Morek

    By Leith Fadel on November 5, 2015 Featured

    It was another wild night in northern Hama as the Syrian Al-Qaeda group “Jund Al-Aqsa” – alongside Ajnad Al-Sham – continued their intense assault on the Syrian Arab Army (SAA) controlled town of Morek.

    On Wednesday night, Jund Al-Aqsa and their allies were able to impose fire control over Morek after capturing every checkpoint along the Kafr Zita-Morek Road that led to the town’s western flank; this was followed by a series of fierce clashes that ultimately resulted in the Syrian Arab Army’s 555th Brigade of the 18th Tank Division and the 87th Brigade of the 11th Tank Division’s retreat to the southeastern outskirts of Morek.

    A few hours after their withdrawal from Morek, the Syrian Armed Forces returned to Morek, but this time with several fighters from Hezbollah, who helped them reclaim much of the town from Jund Al-Aqsa’s grip; however, this success was short-lived, as the Islamist rebels greatly outnumbered the pro-government forces.

    The following morning, the Syrian Armed Forces were on the outskirts of Morek and the Islamist rebels were inside the town-center, where they raised their flag to signify victory at this strategic battle.

    Unfortunately for the Syrian Armed Forces, Jund Al-Aqsa did not stop at Morek: the aforementioned Al-Qaeda group imposed full control over Tal Sukeek and then followed this up with their successfully entry into the imperative town of ‘Atshan.

    Currently, the Syrian Armed Forces are on the defensive against Jund Al-Aqsa and their allies, as the aforementioned Islamist rebel group strives to capture ‘Atshan and push south towards the towns of Souran and Taybat Al-Imam in northern Hama.
    http://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jaysh-al-fateh-officially-captures-the-strategic-town-of-morek/
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:45 pm

    Maybe waiting a while and attacking with larger numbers (and RuAF support) would be a wiser idea? Attacking an enemy more numerous than you is not the wisest idea if technological advantage is not overwhelmingly on your side.

    As a counterbalance, SAA captured some hilltops from ISIS in Homs https://t.co/gE3DOnEIuj

    Newest map from Hama:
    Syrian Civil War: News #3 - Page 24 CTEfu4rWwAEW5Bv
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    Post  par far Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:55 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Here is some actual news to get everyone's mind of one little setback that will not affect the outcome of the war (even though everyone here is losing their **** for some reason... Suspect  )



    "US ends arms supply to Syrian Kurdish militia, official says"

    http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_us-ends-arms-supply-to-syrian-kurdish-militia-official-says_403413.html



    This is normal around here, win a town and the reaction is "the SAA and it's allies are winning, they will take everything". Lose a small town "the SAA and it's allies are no good, they are done". This is normal around here.

    Here is the current situation in Syria, I think you will get the answer to why the US stopped arms to the Kurds, they have re branded the terrorists. I just wish that when the US planes do an air drop ammo to the terrorists, the Russian Air Force would target those US planes, if the US did indeed stop arms to the Kurds, I hope Russia and Iran step in and help the Kurds seal the Turkish border(this would be a major victory).   


    http://southfront.org/international-military-rewiev-syria-iraq-battlespace-nov-05-2015/
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:55 pm

    Solncepek wrote: Jaysh Al-Fateh Officially Captures the Strategic Town of Morek

    By Leith Fadel on November 5, 2015 Featured

    It was another wild night in northern Hama as the Syrian Al-Qaeda group “Jund Al-Aqsa” – alongside Ajnad Al-Sham – continued their intense assault on the Syrian Arab Army (SAA) controlled town of Morek.

    On Wednesday night, Jund Al-Aqsa and their allies were able to impose fire control over Morek after capturing every checkpoint along the Kafr Zita-Morek Road that led to the town’s western flank; this was followed by a series of fierce clashes that ultimately resulted in the Syrian Arab Army’s 555th Brigade of the 18th Tank Division and the 87th Brigade of the 11th Tank Division’s retreat to the southeastern outskirts of Morek.

    A few hours after their withdrawal from Morek, the Syrian Armed Forces returned to Morek, but this time with several fighters from Hezbollah, who helped them reclaim much of the town from Jund Al-Aqsa’s grip; however, this success was short-lived, as the Islamist rebels greatly outnumbered the pro-government forces.

    The following morning, the Syrian Armed Forces were on the outskirts of Morek and the Islamist rebels were inside the town-center, where they raised their flag to signify victory at this strategic battle.

    Unfortunately for the Syrian Armed Forces, Jund Al-Aqsa did not stop at Morek: the aforementioned Al-Qaeda group imposed full control over Tal Sukeek and then followed this up with their successfully entry into the imperative town of ‘Atshan.

    Currently, the Syrian Armed Forces are on the defensive against Jund Al-Aqsa and their allies, as the aforementioned Islamist rebel group strives to capture ‘Atshan and push south towards the towns of Souran and Taybat Al-Imam in northern Hama.
    http://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jaysh-al-fateh-officially-captures-the-strategic-town-of-morek/

    How is Morek strategic?  If that is the case, then every town is strategic?

    Good thing is, if the town is currently a ghost town but islamists hold it, then it shouldn't be a problem in flattening it.
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:02 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Solncepek wrote: Jaysh Al-Fateh Officially Captures the Strategic Town of Morek

    By Leith Fadel on November 5, 2015 Featured

    It was another wild night in northern Hama as the Syrian Al-Qaeda group “Jund Al-Aqsa” – alongside Ajnad Al-Sham – continued their intense assault on the Syrian Arab Army (SAA) controlled town of Morek.

    On Wednesday night, Jund Al-Aqsa and their allies were able to impose fire control over Morek after capturing every checkpoint along the Kafr Zita-Morek Road that led to the town’s western flank; this was followed by a series of fierce clashes that ultimately resulted in the Syrian Arab Army’s 555th Brigade of the 18th Tank Division and the 87th Brigade of the 11th Tank Division’s retreat to the southeastern outskirts of Morek.

    A few hours after their withdrawal from Morek, the Syrian Armed Forces returned to Morek, but this time with several fighters from Hezbollah, who helped them reclaim much of the town from Jund Al-Aqsa’s grip; however, this success was short-lived, as the Islamist rebels greatly outnumbered the pro-government forces.

    The following morning, the Syrian Armed Forces were on the outskirts of Morek and the Islamist rebels were inside the town-center, where they raised their flag to signify victory at this strategic battle.

    Unfortunately for the Syrian Armed Forces, Jund Al-Aqsa did not stop at Morek: the aforementioned Al-Qaeda group imposed full control over Tal Sukeek and then followed this up with their successfully entry into the imperative town of ‘Atshan.

    Currently, the Syrian Armed Forces are on the defensive against Jund Al-Aqsa and their allies, as the aforementioned Islamist rebel group strives to capture ‘Atshan and push south towards the towns of Souran and Taybat Al-Imam in northern Hama.
    http://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jaysh-al-fateh-officially-captures-the-strategic-town-of-morek/

    How is Morek strategic?  If that is the case, then every town is strategic?

    Good thing is, if the town is currently a ghost town but islamists hold it, then it shouldn't be a problem in flattening it.

    FOAB, make a statement to the West like the West (USA) did with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but russia has moral high ground, no civilians there, only USrael mercenaries.
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    Post  par far Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:07 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Solncepek wrote: Jaysh Al-Fateh Officially Captures the Strategic Town of Morek

    By Leith Fadel on November 5, 2015 Featured

    It was another wild night in northern Hama as the Syrian Al-Qaeda group “Jund Al-Aqsa” – alongside Ajnad Al-Sham – continued their intense assault on the Syrian Arab Army (SAA) controlled town of Morek.

    On Wednesday night, Jund Al-Aqsa and their allies were able to impose fire control over Morek after capturing every checkpoint along the Kafr Zita-Morek Road that led to the town’s western flank; this was followed by a series of fierce clashes that ultimately resulted in the Syrian Arab Army’s 555th Brigade of the 18th Tank Division and the 87th Brigade of the 11th Tank Division’s retreat to the southeastern outskirts of Morek.

    A few hours after their withdrawal from Morek, the Syrian Armed Forces returned to Morek, but this time with several fighters from Hezbollah, who helped them reclaim much of the town from Jund Al-Aqsa’s grip; however, this success was short-lived, as the Islamist rebels greatly outnumbered the pro-government forces.

    The following morning, the Syrian Armed Forces were on the outskirts of Morek and the Islamist rebels were inside the town-center, where they raised their flag to signify victory at this strategic battle.

    Unfortunately for the Syrian Armed Forces, Jund Al-Aqsa did not stop at Morek: the aforementioned Al-Qaeda group imposed full control over Tal Sukeek and then followed this up with their successfully entry into the imperative town of ‘Atshan.

    Currently, the Syrian Armed Forces are on the defensive against Jund Al-Aqsa and their allies, as the aforementioned Islamist rebel group strives to capture ‘Atshan and push south towards the towns of Souran and Taybat Al-Imam in northern Hama.
    http://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jaysh-al-fateh-officially-captures-the-strategic-town-of-morek/

    How is Morek strategic?  If that is the case, then every town is strategic?

    Good thing is, if the town is currently a ghost town but islamists hold it, then it shouldn't be a problem in flattening it.



    It is strategic because it was captured by isis terrorists with the help of US special forces and Wahhabi cunts went on twitter and other social sites and internet and made it sound like a strategic town but it really is not.


    This is the Aleppo offensive video, apparently almost all the soldiers in the video are Iranian.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c6GW-_dqss



    Syrian and Hezbollah operations in Southern Countryside of Allepo

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2bf_1446719456




    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:27 pm

    There is nothing strategic about this 15k Sunni town. The M5 highway that goes through it leads to rebel controlled areas anyway. For western media every town that is captured by rebels becoems "strategic".

    If you didn't see it yet - here you have an interactive, constantly updated map of Syria, similar to the one we've seen for Ukraine:
    http://syria.liveuamap.com/en/
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:54 pm


    Oh, what is this? lol1

    Syrian Army Takes Control of Huge Area in Aleppo Province

    With the support of Russian airstrikes, the Syrian Army has taken control of approximately 250 square kilometers in Aleppo province.

    http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151105/1029670795/syrian-army-retakes-aleppo.html

    "Operation Army ATS continues in the south-eastern province of Aleppo," said Latakia representative of the Syrian Army, Brigadier General Ali Mayhoub, according to RIA Novosti. "In cooperation with civil defense groups we control more than 250 square kilometers, and returned stability in dozens of villages and towns in the region."

    "The army in collaboration with the civil defense forces managed to open the way to Aleppo…to ensure the safe passage of this important route," Mayhoub added.

    The general also said that terrorists sustained a large number of casualties and loss of equipment.

    "The survivors fled toward Raqqa," Mayhoub said, referring to the self-proclaimed capital of the Islamic State terrorist group.

    "Also, our army has strengthened control over the strategic height of Mraga and working to expand its control of the area. In addition, the air force is delivering pinpoint strikes against concentrates of IS and al-Nusra terrorist groups in the vicinity of the airport and near Kueres military air school in the village of Umm Arkile," Mayhoub said.

    Also on Thursday, Syrian government forces gained a key hill in a northern suburb of the capital of Damascus. The Syrian Army has captured al-Mashtal Heights, as well as a number of buildings in the suburb of Harast.

    "Many terrorists have been killed and their weaponry and fortifications destroyed," Mayhoub said.

    A large number of foreign fighters have also been killed in Damascus' southwestern suburb of Darayya.

    The Syrian Army is now making a "serious advance" toward the ancient city of Palmyra.

    "Our armed forces have taken control over two heights in the Homs Province. We have also made serious advance toward the city of Pal myra near al-Barayat," Mayhoub added. "Islamic State terrirst sustained heavy losses. Six vehicles and over 25 terrorists have been killed in the western outskirts of the Mheen village."

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    Post  ultron Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:59 pm

    sepheronx wrote:How is Morek strategic?  If that is the case, then every town is strategic?

    Good thing is, if the town is currently a ghost town but islamists hold it, then it shouldn't be a problem in flattening it.

    What makes you think it's a ghost town? Mujahids and their families moved there.
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    Post  Cyberspec Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:29 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:There is nothing strategic about this 15k Sunni town. The M5 highway that goes through it leads to rebel controlled areas anyway. For western media every town that is captured by rebels becoems "strategic".

    Obviously they're not going to miss the chance to trumpet their success.

    Morek is important since it's the rats biggest gain in their Hama offensive which they announced a couple of weeks ago. Since the SAA is thin in that area they can use it as a springboard for further attacks as is happening.


    US ends arms supply to Syrian Kurdish militia, official says

    The Turks are upset, so they have to placate them....the only problem is most (like 80%) of that new force is YPG, so I don't see how they can avoid arming them
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:36 pm

    Like Werewolf said, FOAB is the answer. First pretend to prepare for attack on Morek by concentrating troops nearby. Then, once rebels have strengthened defences in preparation for attack, drop the bomb. Morek is small, no more than 2 bombs will be needed to completely destroy the entire town.
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    Post  Cyberspec Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:55 pm

    I doubt RuAF will use FOAB in Syria

    I think better coordination between ground and air units is needed. Like embeding Forward Air Controllers....which should reduce the chance of friendly fire incidents, assuming these reports of Hezbollah being bombed are true
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    Post  George1 Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:15 am

    Cyberspec wrote:I doubt RuAF will use FOAB in Syria

    It might use it in Turkey in future..
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    Post  ultron Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:30 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Like Werewolf said, FOAB is the answer. First pretend to prepare for attack on Morek by concentrating troops nearby. Then, once rebels have strengthened defences in preparation for attack, drop the bomb. Morek is small, no more than 2 bombs will be needed to completely destroy the entire town.

    You clearly haven't seen the buildings in Syria. Like in the former USSR, everything in Syria is made of concrete rather than made of bricks like in Europe and North America. Concrete is pretty much indestructible. The Donetsk airport took months of shelling without collapsing.

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