China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

kvs wrote:

Mike E wrote:

kvs wrote:We should consider the performance of the rebels in the Donbas.   They are getting whipped into shape by Russian advisers and have become very effective on the battlefield even though they are outgunned and face Kiev regime forces at least twice in number.   The Kiev regime is getting similar levels of support from NATO.   It's hard to swallow for some and they make up stories about a Russian invasion every other day.   NATO thinks there are 1,000 Russian troops in Ukraine right now.   This is a silly number for a force deployment and would make more sense as some rounded-to-the-nearest-thousand number of advisers.

I have red rebel stories about effective use of EM warfare against Kiev regime forces.   This does not seem like something a rag tag collection of rebels could achieve after a few months of fighting.   The current state of the Russian army appears to be quite advanced.   The modernization program will take another 10 years, but the training is there and paying off.    

The rebels are not trained directly by Russian forces, but by people in Russian forces or former Russian forces etc.

Both NATO and Russia have advisers in Ukraine.   Following the evolution of the combat in the Donbas there was a clear transition from July onward towards high effectiveness of rebel forces.   It is popular to extoll Strelkov as some military genius.  He was very good but he was not responsible for every success especially the ones in August and September when he was absent from the field.    It is quite a feat to organize a collection of rebels composed of mostly civilians into an effective fighting force.   The pace of the transition was just too fast for it to have been the result of volunteers and trial and error.   The rebels are following a detailed organizational plan.   This sort of "technology" is more important than equipment (as long as the difference in the equipment compared to the enemy is not too great).  

But it is true that ex-forces volunteers from Russian, France, Serbia and likely elsewhere are contributing to the quality of the rebels.   According to a post on mp.net some Serb volunteers got rejected because they were not qualified enough.   So the rebels are not just grabbing any green recruit like the desperate Kiev regime.   These green recruits are a risk to themselves and to others.    It seems that the ceasefire has not given the Kiev regime forces any serious boost in terms of performance and they are still being encircled.  

Yeah, that makes sense, but that doesn't mean they are receiving direct training from the Kremlin. IMHO, they seem to be fighting like an "organized guerrilla-tactics group" if you catch my drift.

Still a form of training..

I would call it the most realistic test of training short of going to war.

That VR system will be priceless for Russian forces to have. Let's hope it works well!

Within NATO I think only Germany has it, though it is possible the US might have their own version...

GarryB wrote:

Still a form of training..

I would call it the most realistic test of training short of going to war.

That VR system will be priceless for Russian forces to have. Let's hope it works well!

Within NATO I think only Germany has it, though it is possible the US might have their own version...

We are in agreement...

Such systems have been trialed for US forces for almost a decade now, but none have reached wide adoption.

Ooh god, it's been a horrible week, i have barely able to post anything.

GarryB wrote:

Good to hear, but then what was considered long range strike before GPS??

Generally speaking from about 500km up to about 5,000km was considered Intermediate range for ballistic missiles... for cruise missiles we are talking about 750km up to about 3,500km.

Soviet cruise missiles of the 80s had a CEP of about 200m, which was fine for nuclear armed models, but not sufficient for conventionally armed models... so there weren't any.

With the introduction of GPS the Russians still couldn't create missiles with the level of accuracy needed as shown in the Georgian conflict of 8.8.8 where the publicly available civilian GPS was turned off for the period of the war. This meant Russian forces with civilian receivers were left in the dark, while Georgian military users of GPS continued to get accurate positioning data.

Now that Russia has Glonass it can use its own signals and guarantee accuracy... as it improves the satellites and adds ground tracking stations around the world the accuracy will improve by quite a bit.

When Chinas system is fully functional they will gain the same benefits too.

i see, but the advancement in tech should have improved there CEP without the use of GPS, and even by 80s standards restricting the range to 300km seems idiotic to me.

Then why is the INF treaty the stated reason for the cancellation of the entire program, was it a budgetary issue or something??

I suspect cost was the real reason it was cancelled... there was simply no money at the time to pay for its development... and by the look at it I would suggest it will be replaced by Zirconium in the naval surface and air launched versions.

Ooh well, as long as they get sought systems.

Until 2007/8 where everything went south because of Georgia, but what does that have to do with the MCTR which isn't even a treaty, and unlike the CFE held no benefits for Russia from day one, if anything it served to limit Russia's MIC and completely handicap any country that dares defy the Western powers.

Two likely possibilities I suspect... either this was one of the deals Yeltsin signed thinking he was amongst friends and it would buy him further favour with the wolves, or there were behind the scene promises made to get it agreed upon.

Why not both, damn that Yeltsin, i hope Putin does something or Russia wont have many allies left soon.

Getting rid of WMDs and stopping western intervention is all well and good, but at the end of the day you cannot rely on other countries with the defense of your own, one must have the ability to defend themselves, because the protection you get from others is always temporary.

Not being rash, they are now in a position where Assad is still in power and the opposition is clearly out of western favour, so Russia can begin to rearm Assad with all the weapons he needs to deal with ISIS or ISIL or whoever they are today.

The west seems indecisive about which one of those "Oppositions" are out of favor, and even if Russia rearms Assad today, they'll still need those S-300s for tomorrow.

Ooh Garry, you  know how this works, claim that the leadership are dictator, spur the population with talk of freedom, democracy and the wealth of capitalism/free-market and....well i am sure you know the rest.

Except Iran is one of the few countries in the region that actually has democracy... women have held the vote there for decades... Iranians are not stupid enough not to remember the CIA puppet Shah...

As a wish man ones said:
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein

BTW this quote is mostly aimed at Iran's younger and upcoming generation.

Anyway for me, at the end of the day the only thing keeping the U.S from invading are Iranian missiles like Meshkat and Shahab-3.

What a sad reflection of US foreign policy... invade, destroy the government and infrastructure of a functioning country, declare victory, and leave.

Peace won by compromise is usually a short lived achievement, to be prepared for war is one of the most effective ways of preserving peace, To arms! to arms! ye brave! The avenging sword unsheathe! March on! march on! all hearts resolved On victory or death!
Ozmo

Domestic or export, on top of that this also brings up the question of whether ADS constitute as a delivery Systems.

MTCR... Missile Technology (export) Control Regime is a protocol dedicated to limiting the export of missile technology that would allow the development of long range weapons of large payload. (range = 300km+ and payload = 500kgs or more).

SAMs can easily be modified to deliver payloads to the ground... the 150kg warhead of the S-400 could easily be replaced with a fairly large nuke...

Really??
I just don't see it.

Then why aren't they selling these missiles???

Because they have already verbally promised to adhere to the MTCR rules.

I scrolled lower on the wiki page and found out the same thing, i wonder if China will change there mind when (not "if") NATO bases are being deployed in TIBET, Idiots.

i see, but the advancement in tech should have improved there CEP without the use of GPS, and even by 80s standards restricting the range to 300km seems idiotic to me.

As range increases the problem of locating a point target becomes greater and greater... especially if part of that flight distance is over flat featureless ocean or flat desert/tundra.

Adding terminal guidance can make it very accurate but it needs to be able to identify its target itself without any outside interference, so an IR seeker that recognises aircraft parked on an airfield could be used to guide the missile down the line with cluster munitions popping out along the line doing small amounts of damage to dozens of planes instead of total damage to one or two.

Having a 500-700km range Onyx high speed anti ship missile means nothing if you have no Legenda system to detect targets for it...

Really??
I just don't see it

Its real purpose was to stop the proliferation of Scud like weapons that could be filled with chem or bio weapons to actually make them effective, or the equivalent cheap simple subsonic cruise missile which would be very easy to design and build.

In fact, it is nobody's secret to realize how US are accumulating more and more alarming late against the new weaponneries developped by Russia, and China. At first, it is really doubfull if the F-22 could evade the new russian, and chinese AESA, and long wave radars. If indeed, the F-22 could -?-  evade the old syrian, and libyan radars, but certainly not the new russian-chinese radars with their panooply of sam and S-300.
In term of either missiles, fighters, bombers, tanks, America's , and overall western's hardware does not match with the new hardware developped by China and Russia. For example, the chinese M-20 missile, is able to penetrate every US shield because of its hypersonic speed. It is no use to mention the large panoply of russian hypersonic missiles either cruise, or balistic.

The only area where US are still the leader stay only in the navy, espcially aircraft-carriers, and their ageing fleet of F-18, with a certainty, they could not match with the Mig-31-33-35, SU-30-32-33-34-35. What could these ships do against the russian, chinese hypersonic cruise missiles ?
In order to save the appearances, US bet in Roboics. Robotic ? Joke            What could a drone do, if an F-22, and no F-15 could fly, and if they fly, they will be almost immediatly downed.
I posted several links showing that US lack of money, as Russia during the dark nineties's decade. When the western crisis started in the end of 2008, I did not realize how the shift of balance will occur so  quicqly.

If a thing is sure, the next war will be the ultimate US war, it will end, as Napoleon's case in Waterloo.





http://news.yahoo.com/u-military-scrambles-keep-edge-despite-budget-woes-005746127--business.html

U.S. military scrambles to keep its edge despite budget woes


SIMI VALLEY Calif. (Reuters) - Short of funds, and awash in global challenges, the U.S. military-industrial complex is betting on robotics and other new technologies to stay ahead of rapid advances in weapons development by China, Russia and other potential foes.

But with budgets already under pressure and deeper cuts looming in fiscal 2016, it remains uncertain if the Pentagon can win support in Congress to speed up the acquisition process and turn the new technologies into game-changing weapons.

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel unveiled a new "Defense Innovation Initiative" at a conference at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library on Saturday, an effort to secure and expand the U.S. military's competitive edge.

Hagel cited robotics, autonomous systems, miniaturization, big data and three-dimensional printing as key areas, but gave none of the funding details that industry executives say they need to guide their own investments.

They are also urging Pentagon officials to keep slashing back bureaucracy, ease barriers for arms exports, and streamline rules for commercial products.
View gallery
US army soldiers are seen marching in the St. Patrick's …
U.S. army soldiers are seen marching in the St. Patrick's Day Parade in New York, March 16, 2013 …

Mike Petters, chief executive of Huntington Ingalls Industries, said government officials were stepping up their dialogue with industry, but many factors constrained their efforts, including the short-term focus of capital markets.

"You're seeing the right dialogue, but it's not concluded," Petters told Reuters at the conference.

The Pentagon plans to work closely with traditional weapons makers like Lockheed Martin Corp and Boeing Co, but it is also looking for inspiration from commercial companies like Google that are more agile and less bureaucratic.

The initiative will help coordinate efforts already under way to reform acquisition and encourage innovation, far earlier attention to affordability and possible exports.

"Innovation is absolutely required," said Gwynne Shotwell, chief executive of Space Exploration Technologies, or SpaceX, a privately held firm that builds rockets for NASA, and is seeking certification by the Air Force for military launches as well.

Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Jonathan Greenert told Reuters the Navy was studying weapons built by U.S. allies, using existing technologies in different ways, and learning from rapid acquisition processes that helped deliver thousands of armored vehicles to troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Greenert said the Navy was also consulting with companies to weed out unnecessary cost-drivers, an approach that helped trim the projected cost of a new nuclear-armed submarine by over $1 billion and is now being used for work on a new amphibious ship.

(Additional reporting by David Alexander; Editing by Eric Walsh)

Strongest military historically belongs to the richest guy in town. Since Nov 2014 this guy is China so military prowess shall follow short.

US might become unable to wage any conventional war on it's own soon.
Well now when Russia is enemy again we might have Cold War v2 and i trully hope NATO will become convetional force. It's pathetic to see countries spending few percent's to maintain armies suited only for insurgencies.
NATO should learn from Russia and organise big drills. If West wants to survive then they should militarise their countries, pressure EU to pump money into military industry, work on population and make military service a requirement. Democracy and capitalism failed and people need strong leadership and purpose. Consumerist spineless eurogays are pathetic, society in Europe has failed. But I doubt that will happen.

After living in the west I noticed that westerners are inferior to eastern Europeans in all standards. From physical strength to ability to think for themselves or be self sufficient. No practical thinking, no street smartness and don't let me get started about their education. I even start to think that hatred towards westerns would be just, but instead of a race I would target whole society.

World is way too soft now, governments are full of lazy businessmen with no grandiose ideas, just a need for more money. It disgusts me.

The US military is still by far the most powerful on the planet and will be for some time to come.

There is a lot of waste and if you look at individual items many of them can be considered no where near state of the art, but if you consider war to be a chess game they are the only side that has all the chess pieces. Russia will, in my biased opinion superior by 2025 assuming all the plans go to plan as money will be spent repairing what was neglected for decades and what needed replacement.

the US still has thousands of operational aircraft that are not MiG-17 copies.

China is very much a growing power, but like India they have enormous potential but also serious problems.

they need to solve the fundamental problems that the west has been unable... or perhaps unwilling to deal with... the gap between rich and poor. the western idea that rich people have to spend money so it will be shared around is bullshit. Rich people use their money to save money... the richest people I know are the tightest and least charitable.

Consumerism and the gap between rich and poor are not really compatible ideologies... hopefully someone will come up with a solution that does not result in a situation like the movie Elysium.

Consumerist spineless eurogays are pathetic, society in Europe has failed. But I doubt that will happen.

Sadly I agree that it wont happen... the future will have even more separation between rich and poor with the rich controlling the media and information and governments.

World is way too soft now, governments are full of lazy businessmen with no grandiose ideas, just a need for more money. It disgusts me.

Well when you create a system like we have in NZ where the politicians can vote themselves pay increases, and when cornered and asked about their high pay rates they claim it is just a commerical average... I suspect they take the worlds top companies and use those examples as the average...

There needs to be a law that Politicians can only be paid by the same as the poorest citizen of the country and you will automatically see that they install laws and mechanisms for minimum wage which does not exist in most countries even those and especially those which portray themselfs as "developed and rich".

Politicians should be paid by the promises they can hold and punished by overstreched lies of promiseses they have made and broken.

Like a friend of mine said: "100 hits with a ruler on the blank glans penis for lying politicians."

This blog contains relevant informations, it is worth to take a look
http://manglermuldoon.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-technological-maturity-of-chinese.html

Nevertheless, as Iam more and more reluctant to see, read, and to take credit what US medias in general say, a fortiori about a blog that is belonged to student. Of course, he refers to informations about Karlo Koop, but as I've already said, Karlo Koop, if he is very serious, has an academic approach, Auspower rely on Israeli, and US propaganda -except for the F-35-, and many times, its analysis as there was based on false informations, its conclusions are not true. This student is relying on erreonous approach too.

This blogger asserts that Russia, and China are in late regarding AESA technology that is 20 years old. I am not a specialist regarding electronic, especially regarding radars, including AESA, what Iam sure, Russia's AESA radars are enough effective against all US fighters. And many of informations availlable on Zhuk AE for example are classified, as it is a sensitive technolgy. I cannot see russians showing the transistors of their radars exposing to the world its weakness. I don't see too, Russia swaggering its AESA radars secret stronger points in the world.
Zhuk-AE seems to be very effective,  as Irbis-E, meaning that Russia has very brighting engineers, and scientists that could overcome every challenge, including against US.
If you have more relevant informations, please could you share them with us here.

http://thediplomat.com/2015/01/new-snowden-documents-reveal-chinese-behind-f-35-hack/

I read yesterday this article, and it is more than laughable. I wanted to teardrop for the poor pentagon, the poor naive americans, those who work hard, those who were cheated, those who were stolen, those who have never steal, never loot others. Poor Pentagon, poor US empire that is agonizing. These charges are mere stupid and ridiculous arguments.
Well, if this claims are correct -and they are far to be obvious, as we will see-, how  chineses could easily steal nearly 50 Tera bytes in one of the most sophisticated servers, and most secured areas ?
What about the computer science security ? Those who are aware about OSI  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model - model know exactly that, at first, as Internet, you have DOD behind. And, in anyway, all architectures surounding computer science including hardwares and chieftly softwares are all technologies implemented, designed, and often inspired by DOD. All these works turn toward one thing, the absolute security for US military hardware at first. If they admit that foreign states hackers could steal easily the most sensitive secrets, then, they implicitly acknowaledge that all bank transactions are not secure. All electronic buiseness is somewhere useless, because not secured.

In fact, those who follow the history of the US know very well that this partition is not new. During the soviet era, I remember to read, and to see many TV programs, many books explaining that, soviets are genetically unable to follow US, and they steal the F-15's radar , B1 B's technology, SLBM Trident D 10 secrets etc....Nevertheless, after the fall of the USSR, they realized that the Mig-31's radar are more advanced than their APG-65, and after Israel saw the Mig-23 ML, zionists pundits admited that regarding BVR, Mig-23 ML is better than their F-15. US, unfortunetly for us all -thanks to Yeltsin's administration-, America could after the fall the USSR, looted all soviet secrets that they could. And many precious russian pundits were simply assassined. By who ?

Well behind these imputations US admit  that Russia and China are at least in same level with american fighters technologies. If this is the case, what are the next steps ? They are preparing the opinion at first to ask more money as usual. Will they admit that the F-22, B2-A, and F-35 are tragic faillures ? Will they dare ?
The reason of the chinese success is close cooperations. During these recents years China, India,  and Russia started close cooperations, and the results are starting to be appear now. It is important to say that, the SU-Pak Fa is implemented with India. The J-11, J-10, J-15, J-16, J-20, and J-31 were implemented with close cooperations between Russia and China. This cooperation between Russia, India, and China had implied one of the big technology transfert in modern history, jeopartizing the US-western suprematy. Hence, and it seems to be such successfull road, that neither US or their allies could match now with these new hardwares. For that reason, US are becoming more and more nervous, anxious, and they are doing all their possibles to break the cooperation between these new 3 giants.
Well, for US now, what will be the next step ?

Recall: The J-31 is implemented thanks to the big cooperation between Russia and China, and it uses nowadays RD-93, and its chinese modern version the WS-13. Many of the design seems to be implemented with a close works of russians and chinese pundits.

Russian LTCC (Low Temperature Co-Fired Ceramics) technology has reached a point where they can produce air-cooled Transmiiter/Receiver (T/R) Modules for thei AESA radars. Tomsk-based Research Institute of Semiconductor Devices supply unique (with no foreign analogues) modules for Phazotron NIIR, who is responsible for producing lighter and smaller aircraft radars. More details in this link:

AESA radars growing smaller

The forgot russian aircraft, and electronic industry.

http://sputniknews.com/military/20150129/1017477530.html

This time it is official, US ackowaleged that Russia, and China are quicly catching up their late -in fact, the reality, Russia not only caught up a couple of years ago, but now, clearly, Russia is ahead -, and US panic.
Take a look at this quote about Technology and Logistics Frank Kendall told a congressional panel :

...I am very concerned about the increasing risk of loss of U.S. military technological superiority. We're at risk and the situation is getting... worse.

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=128067

"We are entering an era where American dominance on the seas, in the skies, and in space — not to mention cyberspace — can no longer be taken for granted," said Hagel. "And while the United States continues to maintain a decisive military and technological edge over any potential adversary, our continued superiority is not a given."

Russia, China closing military gap with US, Hagel says

Report: Chinese Navy’s Fleet Will Outnumber U.S. by 2020

Thx Ahmed. Very good info
In fact, I realized that Russia caught up, and overpassed US when SU-35, and Mig-35 flew. Concerning nuclear deterrement I had never doubts, even during the nightmare 90's decade, I knew, Russia was strong enough with its nuclear ICBM, and SLBM, despite the russian economic collapse.
In fact we were completly blind, blind because US had never the suprematy, we were blinded because of Iraq, and Sebia's conflicts, where there were historic exceptions. In fact we saw the worth of US army in Iraq during occupation, and we realized how they were vulnerable, how all this suprematy was only a hype.

The fondamental problem for Russia is of course russian army inferior to US army, because US has more than 2.950 4++ generation fighters, meanwhile Russia has only 1288 fighters plus 288 Su-24. Yes, Russia is in danger, because Russia is threatened, not by the quality, but by the fact that Russia is outnumbered. US has about 900 F-18, 472 F-15, and nearly 900 F-16.
Russia will have to invest more in order to modernize its fleet.

nemrod wrote:Thx Ahmed. Very good info
In fact, I realized that Russia caught up, and overpassed US when SU-35, and Mig-35 flew. Concerning nuclear deterrement I had never doubts, even during the nightmare 90's decade, I knew, Russia was strong enough with its nuclear ICBM, and SLBM, despite the russian economic collapse.
In fact we were completly blind, blind because US had never the suprematy, we were blinded because of Iraq, and Sebia's conflicts, where there were historic exceptions. In fact we saw the worth of US army in Iraq during occupation, and we realized how they were vulnerable, how all this suprematy was only a hype.

The fondamental problem for Russia is of course russian army inferior to US army, because US has more than 2.950 4++ generation fighters, meanwhile Russia has only 1288 fighters plus 288 Su-24. Yes, Russia is in danger, because Russia is threatened, not by the quality, but by the fact that Russia is outnumbered. US has about 900 F-18, 472 F-15, and nearly 900 F-16.
Russia will have to invest more in order to modernize its fleet.

Welocme Nemrod,

Lets take in mind that US "unlike Russia" has many bases all over the world , so it should outnumber Russia .

Indeed , US goes to wars all over the world with her carriers , so it needs strike aircrafts and fighters to protect strike aircrafts

Russia " by military industry " is protecting her interests , borders and exporting hardware to get some $ , so she strengthen her army not to be like US one but to achieve her goals , the question is , is she doing well? i think it does.

Actually i think a smaller , professional army with modern electronics that can target any point in the world to defend his country would be enough , but if US did this , who will invade others and steal

George1 wrote:

ahmedfire wrote:Report: Chinese Navy’s Fleet Will Outnumber U.S. by 2020

what about russian navy?

US needs big navy to protect her commercial ships overseas, it has no borders for other nations to transport her trade to and from US.

Indeed US needs her navy to get red of governments and terrorists

Russia is a land power that has land borders to most other nations , so she just needs not big ,strong and smart navy .

George1 wrote:[b]
Areas of the concern raised by Pentagon officials last week include Chinese and Russian anti-satellite systems, anti-ship missiles, and increasing cyber capabilities, according to testimony and public statements from the DOD.

What it amazed me, they quote :anti-satellite systems, anti-ship missiles, and increasing cyber capabilities.... and ?
In fighter area, in anti tank weaponneries, even in tank area America is not in the race. I wish to see a combat now between SU-35, or Mig-35 against F-22. Iam sure of F-22's defeat.
In area of space technology, it is obvious that as China invest huge amount of money, and ressources, they are on the verge to be the leader. I think in fighter area, France-unfortunetly, less for french, because most of their ressources are wasting by paying an shamed debt to Rothschild's banksters-, and Russia are still the leaders.
In Radar, I think since 2010, the world balance completly shift toward Asia, especially Russia, and China, I won't be surprise if, in the comming years, if not months, China or Russia will reveal a new revolutionnar radar, far better than any AESA's existing radar.
The only area where Western is ahead is the navy.


The great problem with US responsibles, they have been living in another planet, and, untill now, they are persuaded that they are the technology, they are the culture, they are the economy, they are world, in other word they are considering themselves as the navel of the world.
The world evolves and is not waiting for America. English used to mock Japan, Germany, untill the day where they found themselves overhelmed by Germany, Japan, after Soviet Union, hence from great british empire, UK became a simple US satelite among others.
UK leaders used to consider japaneses genetically unable to pilot fighter, because they are to small, and they could not hold balance. UK used to thing in the 30's that japaneses were even unable to order, unable to have a dissiplined army. Untill the day when they lost Singapor.
We are witnessed the same behaviour from US responsibles nowadays. Hence US is going to the same UK's fate.