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    PAK DP prospective long-range interceptor

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:41 pm

    At events like MAKS people ask about programmes, so it is normal to give some answer, though it will have to be vague because most programmes are actually secret until declared not secret.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:08 pm

    MiG-31/41 will become a hypersonic killer
    https://lenta.ru/news/2020/02/12/mig41/
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:At events like MAKS people ask about programmes, so it is normal to give some answer, though it will have to be vague because most programmes are actually secret until declared not secret.

    They are always secret. Knowing the program name or fighter name or even having a picture of the aircraft doesn't mean it's not secret.

    Su57 is right now the most secret program that was publicaly shown.
    dino00
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    Post  dino00 Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:44 pm

    As for promising projects. You told me a year ago in an interview that by the end of 2019 it was planned to confirm the appearance of the PAK DP with the military. At what stage is work on it now?
    - According to the results of last year, the commission of the Ministry of Defense of Russia selected the most promising projects of this aviation complex created in the framework of R&D. Work in this area is ongoing.


    https://ria.ru/20200716/1574433496.html

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    Post  mnztr Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:36 pm

    I do not like the idea of combining Sukhoi and MIG. These are two very distinct companies with very unique DNA and philosphies, both which have designed transformational aircraft. For Sukhoi I would say the SU-25 and SU-27 are the 2 iconic platforms. MIG acutally has a more storied history. In the jet age, mig 15, mig 21, mig-25, Mig 29 and Mig 31, all absolute icons of aviation.

    Combining them will result in a loss of their uniqueness. Just like every US fighter is now LockMart ..kinda sounds like Walmart, lol.


    Last edited by mnztr on Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:10 am; edited 1 time in total
    dino00
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    Post  dino00 Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:00 am

    mnztr wrote:I do not like the idea of combining Sukhoi and MIG. These are two very distinct companies with very unique DNA and philosphies, both which have designed transformational aircraft. For Sukhoi I would say the SU-25 and SU-27 are the 2 iconic platforms. MIG acutally has a more storied history. In the jet age, mig 15, mig 21, mig-25, Mig 29 and Mig 31, all absolute icons of aviation.

    Combining them will result in a loss of their uniqueness. Just like every US fighter is now LockMart ..kinda sounds like Walmart, lol.

    The design bureau of Mig and Sukhoi will not merge, they will remain independent but sometimes work together, I think that's the best of both worlds.
    Only the companies will merge, management etc etc.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:11 am

    dino00 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:I do not like the idea of combining Sukhoi and MIG. These are two very distinct companies with very unique DNA and philosphies, both which have designed transformational aircraft. For Sukhoi I would say the SU-25 and SU-27 are the 2 iconic platforms. MIG acutally has a more storied history. In the jet age, mig 15, mig 21, mig-25, Mig 29 and Mig 31, all absolute icons of aviation.

    Combining them will result in a loss of their uniqueness. Just like every US fighter is now LockMart ..kinda sounds like Walmart, lol.

    The design bureau of Mig and Sukhoi will not merge, they will remain independent but sometimes work together, I think that's the best of both worlds.
    Only the companies will merge, management etc etc.

    I am not sure if this is really possible to be honest. With a common executive the bureaus will cross polinate until uniqueness is lost.
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    Post  Isos Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:12 am

    Why not ? It would speed up the creation of LMFS if sukhoi share with them the research work about stealth and weapon bay's aerodynamics for exemple.

    They don't compete against each other as sukhoi makes bombers and multirole heavy jets and mig makes interceptors and lighter jets.

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    Post  mnztr Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:33 am

    Isos wrote:Why not ? It would speed up the creation of LMFS if sukhoi share with them the research work about stealth and weapon bay's aerodynamics for exemple.

    They don't compete against each other as sukhoi makes bombers and multirole heavy jets and mig makes interceptors and lighter jets.

    It will speed it up, yes, but by doing so you eliminate the possibility that a different and potentially better solution can be found. Also the solutions in some of these areas may define the parameters of the project and then you will have MIG developing a plane based on Sukhoi philosophy. Its a cheaper approach, arguably sensible, but it can reduce innovation.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:09 pm

    This talk about MiG-35s will be moved to a MiG-35 thread as this is the MiG-41 thread... Smile

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    Post  thegopnik Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:26 am

    Got some news from our distant cousins at eagle.forum.ru.

    https://avia.pro/news/gibrid-miga-i-sushki-rossiyskiy-istrebitel-mig-41-budut-sozdavat-na-baze-su-57?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    The Russian MiG-41 interceptor fighter will be built on the basis of the Su-57 fighter.

    The information resource Avia.pro obtained information that the newest fighter-interceptor MiG-41, being developed by Russian aircraft manufacturers, is being created on the basis of the fifth generation Su-57 fighter. We are talking about the configuration of an aircraft with a modified airframe, since, according to the previously presented data, a combat aircraft will be able to reach speeds of more than 6100 km / h, and, obviously, the cruising speed of an interceptor fighter in this case will be about 2500-3000 km / h ., which, today, cannot be demonstrated by any other combat aircraft in the world.

    Given the fact that we are talking about a fighter-interceptor, experts have suggested that the armament complex of this combat aircraft will be limited to perform specific tasks, in particular, we can talk about anti-satellite missiles, hypersonic interceptor missiles and, probably, hypersonic aircraft missile systems "Dagger" or their analogues.

    Experts do not exclude that the design of the MiG-41 will be similar at the same time to the appearance of the Su-57, the appearance of the MiG-31, which this combat aircraft will have to replace in the near future.
    Подробнее на: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://avia.pro/news/gibrid-miga-i-sushki-rossiyskiy-istrebitel-mig-41-budut-sozdavat-na-baze-su-57%3Futm_referrer%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fzen.yandex.com&usg=ALkJrhjBza9Lx3t68fws8bavr4kcgiiDYA

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:05 am

    thegopnik wrote:Got some news from our distant cousins at eagle.forum.ru.

    https://avia.pro/news/gibrid-miga-i-sushki-rossiyskiy-istrebitel-mig-41-budut-sozdavat-na-baze-su-57?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    The Russian MiG-41 interceptor fighter will be built on the basis of the Su-57 fighter.

    The information resource Avia.pro obtained information that the newest fighter-interceptor MiG-41, being developed by Russian aircraft manufacturers, is being created on the basis of the fifth generation Su-57 fighter. We are talking about the configuration of an aircraft with a modified airframe, since, according to the previously presented data, a combat aircraft will be able to reach speeds of more than 6100 km / h, and, obviously, the cruising speed of an interceptor fighter in this case will be about 2500-3000 km / h ., which, today, cannot be demonstrated by any other combat aircraft in the world.

    Given the fact that we are talking about a fighter-interceptor, experts have suggested that the armament complex of this combat aircraft will be limited to perform specific tasks, in particular, we can talk about anti-satellite missiles, hypersonic interceptor missiles and, probably, hypersonic aircraft missile systems "Dagger" or their analogues.

    Experts do not exclude that the design of the MiG-41 will be similar at the same time to the appearance of the Su-57, the appearance of the MiG-31, which this combat aircraft will have to replace in the near future.
    Подробнее на: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://avia.pro/news/gibrid-miga-i-sushki-rossiyskiy-istrebitel-mig-41-budut-sozdavat-na-baze-su-57%3Futm_referrer%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fzen.yandex.com&usg=ALkJrhjBza9Lx3t68fws8bavr4kcgiiDYA

    A new airframe will not make its base the Su-57. The Mig-31 is a totally different beast from the Su-27,30,... series. It does not quite make sense
    to use the small airframe of the Su-57 as a base. One of the best features of the Mig-31 is that it can carry the Kinzhal missile and the recently seen
    anti-satellite missile. Why would such capability be sacrificed?

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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:17 am

    Avia.pro strikes again.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:36 am

    Agree with KVS, the Su-57 design is not designed for top speed... it is designed for manouver performance... which is not really important to an interceptor, and stealth, which again is not important for an interceptor that will have an enormous radar operating most of the time to find targets and check airspace for threats.

    If they were going to base the MiG-41 on an existing design I would say the best choice would be the Tu-22M3 with much more powerful engines and larger internal weapons bay and a huge AESA nose mounted radar with the swing wings for low drag high speed flight... obviously made of different materials to take the heat at such speeds, but also with excellent range performance too...

    Perhaps a super cruising Tu-160P... 45 tons would be a lot of AAMs carried internally...
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:19 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Perhaps a super cruising Tu-160P... 45 tons would be a lot of AAMs carried internally...

    So in essence a modern TU-128, could be interesting.

    You could give it all round radar coverage ant it would be a terrifying opponent for the enemy, the AD firepower of a ship with the speed of a fighter.
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    Post  marcellogo Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:23 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    Perhaps a super cruising Tu-160P... 45 tons would be a lot of AAMs carried internally...

    So in essence a modern TU-128, could be interesting.

    You could give it all round radar coverage ant it would be a terrifying opponent for the enemy, the AD firepower of a ship with the speed of a fighter.

    I'll go the opposite way: a MiG-31M derivative but with a better manoeuvrability (and supercruise).

    Design a lighter frame, using heat resistant polymers instead of iron and titanium and utilize A PART of the spared weight into making a larger and stiffer wing, although still optimized for supersonic performance.
    This and a new engine (derived from izdelje 30) maybe with TVC so being able to outrun western planes in any normal combat scenario.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:54 am

    So in essence a modern TU-128, could be interesting.

    With internal weapons carriage for improved flight speed and low drag...

    I'll go the opposite way: a MiG-31M derivative but with a better manoeuvrability (and supercruise).

    You mean take out of freezer and reheat in oven for 30 minutes...

    The MiG-31 is already a slightly larger heavier MiG-25 with most of the stainless steel bits replaced with a bigger radar and extra crewman to work it and extra weapon positions in low drag belly locations and new engines.

    I suspect this time it will be a clean sheet of paper design because Mach-4,2 is going to need something different.

    Certainly a bigger aircraft would be useful but also more challenging.... it all comes do to the engines really... the normal problem with conventional jet engines is that as it accelerates the airflow through the engine has to be reduced... if those huge air intakes on the MiG-31 were open wide at top speed the volume of air going through the engine would choke it because of its speed... at top speed the intake constricts to reduce airflow volume and speed... but a scramjet design can open it up again and let lots of air through meaning a lot more power especially at high speed so a fighter sized aircraft at top speed will have the engines running at enormous energy ratings.... with a scramjet variation bypass turbofan...

    It is going to be interesting... they now have supercomputers to test hundreds of designs a day... maybe something odd will work?
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    Post  marcellogo Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:28 am

    GarryB wrote:
    So in essence a modern TU-128, could be interesting.

    With internal weapons carriage for improved flight speed and low drag...

    I'll go the opposite way: a MiG-31M derivative but with a better manoeuvrability (and supercruise).

    You mean take out of freezer and reheat in oven for 30 minutes...

    The MiG-31 is already a slightly larger heavier MiG-25 with most of the stainless steel bits replaced with a bigger radar and extra crewman to work it and extra weapon positions in low drag belly locations and new engines.

    I suspect this time it will be a clean sheet of paper design because Mach-4,2 is going to need something different.

    Certainly a bigger aircraft would be useful but also more challenging.... it all comes do to the engines really... the normal problem with conventional jet engines is that as it accelerates the airflow through the engine has to be reduced... if those huge air intakes on the MiG-31 were open wide at top speed the volume of air going through the engine would choke it because of its speed... at top speed the intake constricts to reduce airflow volume and speed... but a scramjet design can open it up again and let lots of air through meaning a lot more power especially at high speed so a fighter sized aircraft at top speed will have the engines running at enormous energy ratings....  with a scramjet variation bypass turbofan...

    It is going to be interesting... they now have supercomputers to test hundreds of designs a day... maybe something odd will work?
    Look,i'm not advocating to build others updated Mig-31 but to adopt a plane with about the same dimensions and general design but with the advantages that the natural evolution of techs have achieved.
    So, a lighter frames and way better engines , thanks to new materials and a wing and intake design that would give to it a better manoeuvrability in its designated speed ranges (i.e. something very different from the one in which Flankers/Fulcrum operate) instead to going into something like the YF-12 (that was an huge failure).
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    Post  Firebird Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:57 am

    I think I can see how the Mig-41/Pak-DP might have similarities with the Su-57.
    Remember when the Mig-31 and its predecessor were being developed, the USA thought it was a superfast fighter plane.
    Its interesting to note, the Mig 31 and its Mig-25 predecessor also look a bit like the Mig-29 fighter's predecessor ie the Mig-23. So I could imagine the Mig-41 as extremely fast, pretty stealthy but less manouverable than the Su-57.
    I don't think every last ounce of stealth will be squeezed out of the Mig-41, mainly modern design and coatings etc.
    I'd also expect the Mig-41 to be longer and heavier than the Su-57. More about extended fast speed, straight line speed, weapons carriage etc. Obviously its not planned for dogfighting etc!
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    Post  kvs Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:55 pm

    Firebird wrote:I think I can see how the Mig-41/Pak-DP might have similarities with the Su-57.
    Remember when the Mig-31 and its predecessor were being developed, the USA thought it was a superfast fighter plane.
    Its interesting to note, the Mig 31 and its Mig-25 predecessor also look a bit like the Mig-29 fighter's  predecessor ie the Mig-23. So I could imagine the Mig-41 as extremely fast, pretty stealthy but less manouverable than the Su-57.
    I don't think every last ounce of stealth will be squeezed out of the Mig-41, mainly modern design and coatings etc.
    I'd also expect the Mig-41 to be longer and heavier than the Su-57. More about extended fast speed, straight line speed, weapons carriage etc. Obviously its not planned for dogfighting etc!

    Serious differences are dictated by its function.   It has to be larger to have more fuel capacity and more powerful engines that
    will enable its operation at over Mach 3 for more than a few seconds.    Its similarity to the Su-57 is only in that it is a jet
    and that it will have some stealth features.   The claim that it will be some sort of derivative of the Su-57 is nonsensical.
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    Post  LMFS Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:26 pm

    kvs wrote:The claim that it will be some sort of derivative of the Su-57 is nonsensical.

    This. If you have two planes with completely different operational conditions and requirements they will have in common two wings and two engines and the rest will be completely different. The Su-57 has some characteristics of interceptor, but it is not even close to the design compromises needed for MiG-31 and much less for a more extreme development as MiG-41 is supposed to be. Flying 2 M or 4 M are completely different things in almost every regard one can think of, from propulsion to size to aero config & drag profiles, fuel fraction, low speed handling, materials etc etc. The only point where I can conceive those two could share something would be PAK-DP using an after burning VCE derived from Izd. 30...
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:59 pm

    1.) Consider the source: Aviapro is not respected.

    2.) Why would a Sukhoi product (Su-57) be the base design of a MiG product (PAK-DP)?

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    Post  x_54_u43 Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:58 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:1.) Consider the source: Aviapro is not respected.

    2.) Why would a Sukhoi product (Su-57) be the base design of a MiG product (PAK-DP)?

    I agree that the source is ass and no way PAK-DP is based off Su-57 but technically both products are UAC planes, and there was more respected info from an interview recently that states PAK-DP would be done as a UAC project.
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    Post  william.boutros Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:06 am

    thegopnik wrote:Got some news from our distant cousins at eagle.forum.ru.

    https://avia.pro/news/gibrid-miga-i-sushki-rossiyskiy-istrebitel-mig-41-budut-sozdavat-na-baze-su-57?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    The Russian MiG-41 interceptor fighter will be built on the basis of the Su-57 fighter.

    The information resource Avia.pro obtained information that the newest fighter-interceptor MiG-41, being developed by Russian aircraft manufacturers, is being created on the basis of the fifth generation Su-57 fighter. We are talking about the configuration of an aircraft with a modified airframe, since, according to the previously presented data, a combat aircraft will be able to reach speeds of more than 6100 km / h, and, obviously, the cruising speed of an interceptor fighter in this case will be about 2500-3000 km / h ., which, today, cannot be demonstrated by any other combat aircraft in the world.

    Given the fact that we are talking about a fighter-interceptor, experts have suggested that the armament complex of this combat aircraft will be limited to perform specific tasks, in particular, we can talk about anti-satellite missiles, hypersonic interceptor missiles and, probably, hypersonic aircraft missile systems "Dagger" or their analogues.

    Experts do not exclude that the design of the MiG-41 will be similar at the same time to the appearance of the Su-57, the appearance of the MiG-31, which this combat aircraft will have to replace in the near future.
    Подробнее на: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://avia.pro/news/gibrid-miga-i-sushki-rossiyskiy-istrebitel-mig-41-budut-sozdavat-na-baze-su-57%3Futm_referrer%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fzen.yandex.com&usg=ALkJrhjBza9Lx3t68fws8bavr4kcgiiDYA

    Perhaps they mean some of the avionics, sensors and new materials will be based on technologies developed for the Su-57.
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    PAK DP prospective long-range interceptor - Page 17 Empty Let's start from raw data.

    Post  marcellogo Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:15 am

    I'll repost here a panel that has already been published:

    PAK DP prospective long-range interceptor - Page 17 Mig-3110

    It's a comparison between the performance of MiG-31 and F-14A, both interceptors plane optimized to operate at supersonic speed but with completely different flight pattern.

    How you see in the 4th, 5th and 6th column the F-14 has a way greater maximum turning (5th row) ratio but a lousy sustained one (4th) so in making a full turn (6th) the Mig-31 wins hand down.

    For the way they were supposed to operate (outside the primary interception run) i.e. keeping a quote and speed advantage over possible enemy fighters sustained turning is obviously the way to go.
    F-14 with their variable swept wing are still 3 gen planes while the problem of Mig-31 is that their narrow wing cannot sustain high G loads.
    Look at the difference between turning at 5K and 10K meters, at the first quote it practically cannot perform an high turn rate, at the second the vantage is negligible.
    Still it is already a 4 gen plane as the capacity of perform a tight sustained turn and operate at high AoA (last row).
    So, with new materials, actualized wing and intake form and up to date engines I think it's realistic to expect that a great part of those limitations those limitation would be lifted.

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