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    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    nemrod
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    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV Empty Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  nemrod on Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:25 am

    http://en.alalam.ir/news/1613759

    It seems the kornet is still effective against the so-called trophy that would protected the Merkava.
    It seems so far nothing was really effective against the russian anti tank missile.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:25 am

    No APS will be 100% effective all the time.
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    Post  fragmachine on Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:03 pm

    What Gazans needs are some heavy rockets with big HE warheads covered with GRAD fire. Then we can see zionists in retreat.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:58 pm

    they are fighting on home turf, what they needed to do was go with the IED idea except instead of embedding enormous amounts of HE in their own roads and foot paths they should have set large upward facing HEAT charges with remote detonation options so as the Israeli armour moves forward mines can be set off remotely to hit the belly of the beasts.

    nemrod
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    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV Empty Gaza: RPG-29 vs Merkava IV with Trophy

    Post  nemrod on Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:57 pm

    Again and again, the russian technology is still effective, and able to match any most western hardware, even those so-called state of the art. This video is shows RPG-29 vs Merkava with Trophy.



    PS: This post was reedited as few collegues here in this forum said that Trophy might be effective against this shoot.
    The problem with this kind of video we saw nothing, we did not see if the tank was indem or destroyed. Some pointed out that Trophy successfully resist to the RPG-29.
    The other problem come from the sources: Palestinian for evident reasons or propaganda du to their awfull situation claimed they smashed a Merkava. On the other hand Israelis claimed -for evident reasons of propaganda- that their technlogy is effective and unvulnerable too.
    Who should I believe ? I don't know, however, following the result of this last israeli campaign we will see in the next days or next weeks. But if a think is sure, Israelis often lie more than never.
    Nevertheless, I have not enough science or information to confirm or to deny these claims.


    Last edited by nemrod on Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV Empty Gaza: AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava

    Post  nemrod on Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:23 am

    It seems to be  as palestinians a tank, and most of the tank nowadays in Israel are Merkava, I don't see other than Merkava in Israeli army.





    PS: This post was reedited as few collegues here in this forum said that Trophy might be effective against this shoot.
    The problem with this kind of video we saw nothing, we did not see if the tank was indem or destroyed. Some pointed out that Trophy successfully resist to the AT-14.
    The other problem come from the sources: Palestinian for evident reasons or propaganda du to their awfull situation claimed they smashed a Merkava. On the other hand Israelis claimed -for evident reasons of propaganda- that their technlogy is effective and unvulnerable too.
    Who should I believe ? I don't know, however, following the result of this last israeli campaign we will see in the next days or next weeks. But if a think is sure, Israelis often lie more than never.
    Nevertheless, I have not enough science or information to confirm or to deny these claims.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:32 am

    nemrod wrote:
    Again and again, the russian technology is still effective, and able to match any most western hardware, even those so-called state of the art. This video is enough for me to understand how are the nature of western lies.







    Successfully intercepted by APS .


    In the frame about half of 0:16 the interceptor is delivered in the upper turrett sector (you can see it just under the power line over the MBT ) ; about at end of 0:16 the EPF stream from APS detonation engage the RPG........with a defeating mechanism and angle of interception very similar to domestic ARENA ,how i had since a long time sustained  Wink ......and the RPG warhead detonate with negligible or not damage to the tank.
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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:14 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    nemrod wrote:
    Again and again, the russian technology is still effective, and able to match any most western hardware, even those so-called state of the art. This video is enough for me to understand how are the nature of western lies.







    Successfully intercepted by APS .


    In the frame about half of 0:16 the interceptor is delivered in the upper turrett sector (you can see it just under the power line over the MBT ) ; about at end of 0:16 the EPF stream from APS detonation engage the RPG........with a defeating mechanism and angle of interception very similar to domestic ARENA ,how i had since a long time sustained  Wink ......and the RPG warhead detonate with negligible or not damage to the tank.

    TBH, that angle is very crappy to be sure, it seems it just hit the tank, but maybe you are right the plume from the explosion which is going upwards is little bit odd. Not conclusive tho.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:55 am



    Werewolf wrote: Not conclusive tho


    It is very conclusive Werewolf  Wink 

    Please go at 0:15 ; from this second begin to "stop and and go" the video very quickly and repeatedly , you will clearly see ,at half of 0:16, the APS interceptor delivered above the turett line and just after ,in split second sequence , the detonation of the APS interceptor and of the RPG's warhead.

    Very, very conclusive  Smile .


    What i find interesting, instead, is the design layout and the defeating mechanism chosen by Isreali designers (in particular in relation to geometry of interception ), very very similar to Arena APS to the contrary of what speculated in the pasted years.
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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:25 am

    You are probably right but i would still like to see it from a different angle, similiar to the video of the suppossed Kornet interception by Trophy.
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    Post  nemrod on Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:54 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:

    Successfully intercepted by APS .

    In the frame about half of 0:16 the interceptor is delivered in the upper turrett sector (you can see it just under the power line over the MBT ) ; about at end of 0:16 the EPF stream from APS detonation engage the RPG........with a defeating mechanism and angle of interception very similar to domestic ARENA ,how i had since a long time sustained  Wink ......and the RPG warhead detonate with negligible or not damage to the tank.

    At first thx for your remarqs and notes.
    It is very hard for me to see if the missile disabled the Merkava, or Trophy neutralized the RPG. I tried image/image unsuccessfull see the evidence.
    Other points, Palestinians claimed that they disabled the Merkava without providing evidence of this assertion, because the sequence is long enough for us to see the result.
    However, the only claims providing evidence that Trophy neutralized Rpg came from Israelis. It is no use to telll more about israelis' way to lie-as palestinians-.
    What Iam sure Sagger during october 1973 disabled or destroyed at least 800 israelis tanks, during Lebanon's war in 1982 Israel lost several hundreds tanks, as US during their occupation of Iraq where at least -as DOD admited- 80 M1 Abrams. Moreover, the israelis lost several dozens of tanks during Lebanon war in 2006.

    Question did you mean that the atgm could not circumvent to Trophy ?
    It would be funny if you can answer to this topic :
    https://www.russiadefence.net/t1328p15-trophy-windbreaker-aps-versus-drozd-2#59765

    Regards.
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    Post  Hachimoto on Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:06 am

    this one is too fast for rpg :

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    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:57 am

    Hachimoto wrote:this one is too fast for rpg :


    Actually not, the tank shoots and then you see the explosion of the warhead on the right site of the tank and the jet stream of copper from a shaped charge detonated by Trophy. We saw the same footage with ARENA APS in tests with Kornet.

    After searching with this bad search tool on this forum, i could not find the particular video i was refering to.


    But something similiar like this.



    Chaped charges are quite powerful.
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    Post  nemrod on Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:57 am

    In fact you mean most of the hamas' claims refering tanks destructions are mere lies ?
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    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:46 am

    nemrod wrote:In fact you mean most of the hamas' claims refering tanks destructions are mere lies ?

    I don't know, but Israel like US are known to conceal their losses as much as possible. And APS regardless if it is the best or the worst in the world has not 100% success rate, actually from DROZD in tests and in Afghanistan it was 3 times worse than during tests but still considered effective, it is just not possible to be secure against everything and since RPGs exsist in such huge quantities in ME, it would not be to hard to shoot several at the same time.

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    Post  nemrod on Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:02 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    ...has not 100% success rate, actually from DROZD in tests and in Afghanistan it was 3 times worse than during tests but still considered effective, it is just not possible to be secure against everything and since RPGs exsist in such huge quantities in ME, it would not be to hard to shoot several at the same time.

    Knowing israelis and their usual lies, Iam near sure that Trophy could be effective but far less than israelis claims, and untill now most of the so-called Trophys's success are all claimed by...israelis. In the field, most of the israelis objectives are not reached untill now, just success for communication. This is why I consider the Trophy's success doubtfull.
    But you know all better than me.
    If you have other clues please tell us.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:20 am

    Part of the problem is that if someone carries an RPG into combat, lines up a target and fires and appears to hit it cleanly... there is a lot of smoke and flame and a nice big explosion... then panic to find cover... how is the chap who fired it supposed to know if he got a kill or it was intercepted...

    the normal clue is the enormous explosion and ammo fire that rips the tank apart...
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    Post  nemrod on Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:02 pm

    It seems that palestinian resistance with rpg or AT-14/5 -?- destroyed an Israeli Merkava IV tank

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV 5220f7341400640


    If this information is exact, it proves that Trophy could be easily circumvent, and, as I felt this APS as every APS in the world has flaws, and russian ATGM are still effective.

    Moreover, if their Trophy is really effective, a basic question, why did Israeli army stay in Gaza border ? indeed, they penetrate only 500 meters.
    In 2008, during this time, Israeli army entered in Gaza, and invaded the almost entire strip. By contrast, in 1982, I remember Israel entered in Lebanon, during few days they were near Beyruth, by smashing nearly all PLO structure, army, and captured several hundreds prisonners, tons of weapons -even a Mil-8 in spare parts-. This time in 2014, Israel couldn't even eliminate the stream of rockets that rained on Israel, paralysing Ben Gourion airport.

    This is why, from the begining I strongly doubted about the so-called success either Trophy, or Iron Dome.

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    Post  Hachimoto on Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:42 pm

    nemrod wrote:It seems that palestinian resistance with rpg or AT-14/5 -?- destroyed an Israeli Merkava IV tank

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV 5220f7341400640


    If this information is exact, it proves that Trophy could be easily circumvent, and, as I felt this APS as every APS in the world has flaws, and russian ATGM are still effective.

    Moreover, if their Trophy is really effective, a basic question, why did Israeli army stay in Gaza border ? indeed, they penetrate only 500 meters.
    In 2008, during this time, Israeli army entered in Gaza, and invaded the almost entire strip. By contrast, in 1982, I remember Israel  entered in Lebanon, during few days they were near Beyruth, by smashing nearly all PLO structure, army, and captured several hundreds prisonners, tons of weapons -even a Mil-8 in spare parts-. This time in 2014, Israel couldn't even eliminate the stream of rockets that rained on Israel, paralysing Ben Gourion airport.

    This is why, from the begining I strongly doubted about the so-called success either Trophy, or Iron Dome.


    Iron dome = 400 rocket intercepted so far from a total of 1900
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:32 am

    Hachimoto wrote:Iron dome = 400 rocket intercepted so far from a total of 1900

    I seriously doubt those numbers, especially the first one. Do you have any/much evidence? Where did you get the numbers from?
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    Post  nemrod on Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:18 pm


    I was said -by persons who know very well the subject- that in order to disable or destroy any israeli's tank, including Merkava IV with Trophy. At first you shoud use Kornet instead of any other anti-Tank missile, secundly, you should launch a salve of 2 kornet, after launching the first, you should wait few seconds, and launch the secund. As I felt, the Trophy is not effective against competent anti tank infantry.

    As zionist Armored vehicles and division were threatened by death, it should be dubious if Israel dare to launch a large scale ground invasion. Regarding the IDF losses it will be near impossible. Zionnists are waiting quietly the ceasefire hoping by bombing and slauthering civililians will pressure palestinians.
    In other side, Hamas is waiting by paralysing the entire israeli's economy -during the tourist period-, in order to enforce cease fire, and lifting blockage on Gaza. Do not forget that as Iron Dome is completly ineffective, Ben Gurion's airport is complelty paralysed, as Ashdod port.
    Israel is engaged in nowhere road, and could not wait long time, this war will sustainable erode the israeli hegemony in the middle eat. Zionist entity will have many difficult to recover what Israel was.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:46 am

    I was said -by persons who know very well the subject- that in order to disable or destroy any israeli's tank, including Merkava IV with Trophy. At first you shoud use Kornet instead of any other anti-Tank missile, secundly, you should launch a salve of 2 kornet, after launching the first, you should wait few seconds, and launch the secund. As I felt, the Trophy is not effective against competent anti tank infantry.

    Not good advice.

    The purpose of firing two missiles is because APS generally can only deal with one target at a time.

    It is critical that the two projectiles fired are close enough so that intercepting the first threat does not allow time for the system to reset and prepare to engage the second threat.

    Having said that you don't want the two threats so close together than the interception munition that takes out the first missile also takes out the second or degrades its performance.

    the obvious reasons for choosing Kornet-EM is because of the Tigr model with two launchers ready to fire and the relatively high speed and long range of the missiles and their good penetration performance meaning missiles that get through will most likely kill the tank.

    No point firing two old RPGs with 400mm armour penetration at the frontal armour.

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    Post  nemrod on Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Not good advice.

    The purpose of firing two missiles is because APS generally can only deal with one target at a time.

    It is critical that the two projectiles fired are close enough so that intercepting the first threat does not allow time for the system to reset and prepare to engage the second threat.

    Having said that you don't want the two threats so close together than the interception munition that takes out the first missile also takes out the second or degrades its performance.

    the obvious reasons for choosing Kornet-EM is because of the Tigr model with two launchers ready to fire and the relatively high speed and long range of the missiles and their good penetration performance meaning missiles that get through will most likely kill the tank.

    No point firing two old RPGs with 400mm armour penetration at the frontal armour.


    Iam not an expert, I just repeat what I was told.

    See this video :



    It seems that just one missile was fired, I don't know if it was effective, nevertheless, I think it is enough to frighten israeli's staff, and enough to deter Nettayahu to lauch a ground invasion as they did in 2008.



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    Post  Werewolf on Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:20 pm

    Does not seem effective. The trajectory did not aim on the armor with volume of tank interior behind it but, seems like that the trajectory "scratched" on the surface armor along.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:03 am

    Just looking at that video the missile clearly comes from near where the camera is set up and the explosion is on the rear right side corner of the vehicle... even a clean hit there would not be very effective as the penetration would just hit the corner and blast out the rear of the vehicle.

    the later video that appears to show a soldier being shot was clearly edited... the sound of the shot and the soldier falling are near simultaneous... bullets don't move that fast.

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