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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Flyingdutchman
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Flyingdutchman Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:54 pm

    Regular wrote:
    onwiththewar wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:Dutch Commandos together with australian SAS are on their way to eastern Ukraine.

    http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/22899164/__Troepen_gebriefd_over_missie__.html
     I wonder how separatist will fair against them Cool I hope we will finally see Javelin being used. It will end this endless discussion  about it's usefulness

    I literally laughed out aloud. That was quite some comedy.

    These men, together with the Aussies, each has a life and a family. They won't get themselves killed in someone else' war for entertainment purpose. The only ass they are going to save are their own.

    Although you are eager to see the dutch joining the fight (and it seems to entertain you somehow), honestly their rifles and small arms are only for symbolic purposes. Well, those Javelins, year right, as if they are going to serve any purpose in a grad salvo.

    Poor juntas, now they got to fork out their limited resources and make sure none of these Dutch / Aussie boy scouts don't get hurt.

    On the other hand, Russia has put together a military convoy of 10km long on the border while the whole world is so focused on the MH17 drama, and nobody paid any attention.

    Stupidity will not prevail. LMAO again.








    As I said that SF or not it won't matter much when they will pounded with arty. And it doesn't matter if they families or not, it's their profession and with profession comes hazards Smile 
    I wouldn't overestimate stupidity of people.

    And if the seperatists kill al the dutch commandos you've got a NATO intervention.
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:01 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:And if the seperatists kill al the dutch commandos you've got a NATO intervention.

    I have reported you to the moderators and have requested for you to be banned.
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:03 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:And if the seperatists kill al the dutch commandos you've got a NATO intervention.

    Based on the evidence of your condition that I have provided, I have reported you to the moderators and have requested for you to be banned.
    Regular
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Regular Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:33 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:Dutch Commandos together with australian SAS are on their way to eastern Ukraine.

    http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/22899164/__Troepen_gebriefd_over_missie__.html
     I wonder how separatist will fair against them Cool I hope we will finally see Javelin being used. It will end this endless discussion  about it's usefulness

    What are you two talking about?

    The Australians and the Dutch are unarmed and have received permission from the Novorussians to be there.

    There are only 22 Australians there. I don't know how many Dutch.


    Regular,

    What does Javelin have to do with it? What do you want to know about Javelin? Do you know much about missiles or have a technology background? What is your background, by the way?

    Regular,

    You haven't answered the questions. Answer especially the last three questions!
    Javelin here became synonym of endless discussion like on some forums eternal AK74 VS M16 debate. Don't take it too seriously.
    sepheronx
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:42 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    onwiththewar wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:Dutch Commandos together with australian SAS are on their way to eastern Ukraine.

    http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/22899164/__Troepen_gebriefd_over_missie__.html
     I wonder how separatist will fair against them Cool I hope we will finally see Javelin being used. It will end this endless discussion  about it's usefulness

    I literally laughed out aloud. That was quite some comedy.

    These men, together with the Aussies, each has a life and a family. They won't get themselves killed in someone else' war for entertainment purpose. The only ass they are going to save are their own.

    Although you are eager to see the dutch joining the fight (and it seems to entertain you somehow), honestly their rifles and small arms are only for symbolic purposes. Well, those Javelins, year right, as if they are going to serve any purpose in a grad salvo.

    Poor juntas, now they got to fork out their limited resources and make sure none of these Dutch / Aussie boy scouts don't get hurt.

    On the other hand, Russia has put together a military convoy of 10km long on the border while the whole world is so focused on the MH17 drama, and nobody paid any attention.

    Stupidity will not prevail. LMAO again.








    As I said that SF or not it won't matter much when they will pounded with arty. And it doesn't matter if they families or not, it's their profession and with profession comes hazards Smile 
    I wouldn't overestimate stupidity of people.

    And if the seperatists kill al the dutch commandos you've got a NATO intervention.

    Because it would not invoke the chapter 5 of NATO because these soldiers are going into a warzone, and Denmark is not being attacked, but troops in a hostile country are. If Ukr seps attacked denmark, then yes NATO Would get involved. If NATO gets involved in Ukraine, then it becomes apparent of their goal to begin with which could spark international issues from none NATO countries.
    Flyingdutchman
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Flyingdutchman Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:49 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    onwiththewar wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:Dutch Commandos together with australian SAS are on their way to eastern Ukraine.

    http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/22899164/__Troepen_gebriefd_over_missie__.html
     I wonder how separatist will fair against them Cool I hope we will finally see Javelin being used. It will end this endless discussion  about it's usefulness

    I literally laughed out aloud. That was quite some comedy.

    These men, together with the Aussies, each has a life and a family. They won't get themselves killed in someone else' war for entertainment purpose. The only ass they are going to save are their own.

    Although you are eager to see the dutch joining the fight (and it seems to entertain you somehow), honestly their rifles and small arms are only for symbolic purposes. Well, those Javelins, year right, as if they are going to serve any purpose in a grad salvo.

    Poor juntas, now they got to fork out their limited resources and make sure none of these Dutch / Aussie boy scouts don't get hurt.

    On the other hand, Russia has put together a military convoy of 10km long on the border while the whole world is so focused on the MH17 drama, and nobody paid any attention.

    Stupidity will not prevail. LMAO again.








    As I said that SF or not it won't matter much when they will pounded with arty. And it doesn't matter if they families or not, it's their profession and with profession comes hazards Smile 
    I wouldn't overestimate stupidity of people.

    And if the seperatists kill al the dutch commandos you've got a NATO intervention.

    Because it would not invoke the chapter 5 of NATO because these soldiers are going into a warzone, and Denmark is not being attacked, but troops in a hostile country are.  If Ukr seps attacked denmark, then yes NATO Would get involved.  If NATO gets involved in Ukraine, then it becomes apparent of their goal to begin with which could spark international issues from none NATO countries.

    O i didnt k ow that thanks
    sepheronx
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:55 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    onwiththewar wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:Dutch Commandos together with australian SAS are on their way to eastern Ukraine.

    http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/22899164/__Troepen_gebriefd_over_missie__.html
     I wonder how separatist will fair against them Cool I hope we will finally see Javelin being used. It will end this endless discussion  about it's usefulness

    I literally laughed out aloud. That was quite some comedy.

    These men, together with the Aussies, each has a life and a family. They won't get themselves killed in someone else' war for entertainment purpose. The only ass they are going to save are their own.

    Although you are eager to see the dutch joining the fight (and it seems to entertain you somehow), honestly their rifles and small arms are only for symbolic purposes. Well, those Javelins, year right, as if they are going to serve any purpose in a grad salvo.

    Poor juntas, now they got to fork out their limited resources and make sure none of these Dutch / Aussie boy scouts don't get hurt.

    On the other hand, Russia has put together a military convoy of 10km long on the border while the whole world is so focused on the MH17 drama, and nobody paid any attention.

    Stupidity will not prevail. LMAO again.








    As I said that SF or not it won't matter much when they will pounded with arty. And it doesn't matter if they families or not, it's their profession and with profession comes hazards Smile 
    I wouldn't overestimate stupidity of people.

    And if the seperatists kill al the dutch commandos you've got a NATO intervention.

    Because it would not invoke the chapter 5 of NATO because these soldiers are going into a warzone, and Denmark is not being attacked, but troops in a hostile country are.  If Ukr seps attacked denmark, then yes NATO Would get involved.  If NATO gets involved in Ukraine, then it becomes apparent of their goal to begin with which could spark international issues from none NATO countries.

    O i didnt k ow that thanks

    No Problem.

    After Yugoslavia, many none NATO countries have been questioning NATO's intentions for a very long time, since NATO went from its defensive to offensive since no NATO country was hurt during the war. That has hurt NATO credibility as well as image (many post soviet countries I think were more scared than happy to join NATO because if they joined NATO, there was less of a chance of themselves being bombed or overthrown). People like to claim that they joined because of Russia or because of someone else, but I think it has more to do with the fact that they feared US more than they feared Russia, but used Russia as the smokescreen to their people. I mean, what does Romania gain from NATO? Nothing. What does Hungary or Bulgaria? Nothing. But regardless, NATO was intended in the past as a defensive regime, which was not bad at all. These days, it is a different matter. So if they did decide to go into Ukraine, that is just another excuse and reason why Russia is paranoid (if wanting to place ABM systems in Poland and Turkey wasn't enough....).
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:44 pm

    They joined NATO because they wanted to. It hasn't hurt them.
    The USSR kept its boot in their asses worse than NATO ever will.

    I know, this hurts your pro-Russian world-view.

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    Post  POKL Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:05 pm

    Yes, a lot of countries – that is both their elites & the people wanted to join NATO, UE (EEC when it was still called this way) for many reasons, one being that they badly desired to be part of the ‘West’, that is not the real West but the ‘West’ of their dreams.

    They were not for joining the real institutions / international organisations / whatever you want to call these entities but the ones they thought these were. This especially is true for the people. I am simplifying here on purpose but it was something like when we join western organisations we will become westerners with rainbows & unicorns, that is all the stuff, living standards, money & fun people in the West have – you know like we saw on the video cassettes being brought from over there.

    And finally yes NATO changed from a defensive into an offensive military organisation. Not so much by changing its legal framework but by action & precedence.


    Last edited by POKL on Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : wrong abrev. ECC instead of EEC - corrected)
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    Post  Regular Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:09 pm

    Well after what happened in Ukraine support for NATO grew ten fold if not more Smile NATO was usually disliked in my country.
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    Post  TR1 Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:12 pm

    Yep, its almost inevitable, assuming the country doesn't totally crap out economically. Personally, I don't care, but I am curious how the Putin-lovers will defend such a strategic derp by the dear leader.
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:47 pm


    You guys are totally ignoring that if NATO wanted to be inside Ukraine officially with their armies ,they will have done it long time ago.. They dont do it ..because they know they can be wiped by Russia.

    1)Because They are fighting away of their lands and near Russian borders..
    2)Russia will have strong very massive and brutal air defenses.. and they will depend in Ukraine Buks missiles. and a couple of old S-300s. that neither one will stand a chance against Iskanders.
    3)Their Navies will be at serious disadvantage in the black sea . It will be like shooting fish in a barrel with a shotgun. They will be at range of Russian land defenses ,Russia territory and Crimea will turn into a giant aircraft carrier that never sinks.  Cool  So NATO navy will be useless.
    4)NATO airforces stand not a chance to Russia S-400s air defenses and their mobile ones.

    So if NATO wants to help Ukraine with their official ARmies.. they will have to fight without airforce and without navy. And that will be suicide. So they will need to First build a strong Air defense in Ukraine to shield their armies
    and that will take months.. So sad that Russia do not have those problems. since the fighting in their sweet home land. Moral of the story NATO will be in a very serious disadvantage Fighting near Russia territory. It will not happen as simple as that.

    What they however can do is send private mercenaries ,as they have been doing for a long time.
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:58 pm

    Regular wrote:Well after what happened in Ukraine support for NATO grew ten fold if not more Smile NATO was usually disliked in my country.

    And what happened in Ukraine?
    That the US congress provoked a civil war in a country to remove a democratically elected president,helping
    Neonazis to raise into Power ,with the intention to fight Russia? and that now they are supporting a genocide against civilians women and children with an indiscriminate bombing?  Do i miss something? Any EU politician that is neutral supported Russia actions. Because Russia was defending their Nation security ,which could have been to lose their Naval Base to NATO but also the 90% of civilians there that support Russia and were asking for protection against the NeoNazis gangs that were burning people alive. If Russia just sit down and do nothing while Nazis destroy Crimea and kick them from the historical land and naval base ,they will have never forgiven doing nothing to help. and their world image will have been destroyed too.

    IF NATO is more popular in Europe today after IRAQ ,Libya ,.. after what they did in Syria (supporting Alqaeda) and Ukraine (supporting neonazis) .. is because of the very effective propaganda of their media.  If you visit Latin American forums media , The support for NATO decreased by a million.and the EU are seen a puppet of US. The blackout of the media in Europe is what give NATO any support.. that is des-information. had people be better informed , There will be avoiding NATO like Aids and protesting their Governments to leave the organization.
    South America have much better media that Europe and there NATO is seen like a terrorist organization made by the americans and neocons to create a global empire controlled by them.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:32 pm; edited 4 times in total
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:11 pm

    TR1 wrote:They joined NATO because they wanted to. It hasn't hurt them.
    The USSR kept its boot in their asses worse than NATO ever will.

    I know, this hurts your pro-Russian world-view.


    Yes NATO's backing and support of the Turkish invasion of Cyprus hasn't hurt the Greek diaspora at all...

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 34 Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue
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    Post  TheGeorgian Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:48 pm

    Vann7 wrote:The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 34 Breaking


    An Accounting of the Losses among Ukrainian Military, the Militants and the Civilians in the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions (for the period from July 9-15, 2014) . Official Ukrainian Military Report of Losses for July 9-15, 2014(Arsen Avakov, Minister of Interior and V. Gritsak, Head of the ATO)

    TOTAL UKRAINIAN LOSSES  (Kiev forces)
    Killed in Action: 1600
    Wounded in Action: 4723
    Tanks: 35
    Armoured Battle Vehicles: 96
    Artillery: 38
    Aircraft: 7
    Helicopters: 2
    Automobiles: 104

    TOTAL MILITIA LOSSES (novorossiya)
    Killed in Action: 48
    Wounded in Action: 64
    Tanks: 2
    Armoured Battle Vehicles: 0
    Artillery: 5
    Automobiles: 8


    Wow.. Shocked 
    Crazy indeed if those numbers are real.. I hope the Rebels capture not only Mariupol and totally secure the coast
    in the azov sea ,blocking any possibility for the nazis to have a navy so close to Russia. But also Odessa and Kharkov and all coastal zones ,but for that a major revolution needs to start and all Poroshenko and the CIA parliament and all banderas thugs routed outside Ukraine or at least pushed to the west.. and a new Government start.  

    Ideally however it will be a million times better if a negotiation for peace start and Kiev allows federalization of all Ukraine and allow each region to elect their own police by vote ,and have their own armed security. With the help of the EU pressuring Poroshenko to stop the war ,is the only way that can be possible and avoid such loss of life.

    Ukrainians also lost 1000 tanks and a billion paratroopers ....  Rolling Eyes 

    I mean seriously .... stop believing in every shit you see.

    So far it looks like stable front. Ukr troops in the South East that were previously cut off seemed to have broken through or the seps retreated. Whatever happened, they are not cut off anymore. Meanwhile Ukrainian mounted offensive gained some ground while seps reportedly took heavy losses by artillery. Despite that Ukr military is still not able to penetrate Sep lines, especialy not able to get into Donetsk. However I've heard that a group of seps to the west of Donetsk trying to break through Ukrainian encirclement of the region either got destroyed or they retreated back to the city. Donetsk will be a very intensively contested area because of it's industrial capacities alone. Ukrainians will have to secure it completly in order to gain the decicive advantige they need to win. The losses on both sides are almost equal. Only seps lost some 100-150 men more because Ukrainian military initial assault was heavy. Seperatists almost returned the favour with recent attacks and ambushes. Untill then Ukr military losses were much fewer.


    Last edited by TheGeorgian on Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  TR1 Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:50 pm

    Does anyone actually believe that laughable casualty ratio?
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:23 pm

    TR1 wrote:Does anyone actually believe that laughable casualty ratio?

    Nope
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:42 pm

    No Dutch military mission to Ukraine.

    http://nos.nl/artikel/679980-geen-militaire-missie-oekraine.html

    Link is in Dutch.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:55 pm

    Have ukrainian mig-29s already seen action?
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    Post  POKL Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:28 pm

    I know this is somehow OT – though related – but I have to say the following. Such countries as for example Poland joined NATO and other western organisations because as I explained in my previous post they wanted to be ‘western’. Also in Poland’s case the issue of being secure form meddling by Russia was important and anybody who knows Polish – Russian relations since 18th century till late 20th century will understand why. Except that joining in order to be secure from outside influence and joining in order to be a front line state in a game of provocations & brinkmanship with a nuclear super power are two very different things which should be obvious. If support for joining NATO grew (in which country, who conducted the polls?) since the situation in Ukraine got serious that is since US and other NATO countries got involved in overthrowing the government there and generally into provoking trouble than what can I say – perhaps those showing this support should be send in the first line into a crises / confrontational situation.

    OK sorry for my rant, hope will not get hammered for that.

    As for Ukr MiGs I have not come across any reports of them seeing anything remote to action that is even flying patrols over / in the vicinity of the combat zone.
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:36 pm

    TR1 wrote:They joined NATO because they wanted to. It hasn't hurt them.
    The USSR kept its boot in their asses worse than NATO ever will.

    I know, this hurts your pro-Russian world-view.


    I am curious, do you even like your country?  All I see you do is complain.  Might I suggest moving elsewhere?

    Russia was just a pawn in the whole USSR.  To say it was Russia's fault is silly at best.  I thought they taught USSR history to Russians?  That is, if you are even in Russia.  Polands accession into NATO is the only one that made sense.  The rest?  Not so much.  These countries, former Soviet, keep on saying how they want to be free.  But so far, they are not free if they have to follow NATO high command.  Wouldn't freedom mean being independent?  Regardless, this doesn't really make much of a difference.

    For some reason TR1, you have been on some sort of anti Russian tirade lately.  Is something wrong?  I don't quite understand your position as it is clear as day what is happening in Ukraine, yet you blame your own people.  Is this just some sort of self inflicting criticism that is oh so well known amongst Russian's?

    Let me ask you this question: Do you feel betrayed or disgusted how US NGO's are funding opposition but use the excuse to cure TB in Russia? Do you think you would be quite mad at US and NATO if they started to fund groups and protests in Russia to destabilize it, like they did in Ukraine? If not, then I wonder why you bothered to stay....
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    Post  Werewolf Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:16 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:They joined NATO because they wanted to. It hasn't hurt them.
    The USSR kept its boot in their asses worse than NATO ever will.

    I know, this hurts your pro-Russian world-view.


    I am curious, do you even like your country?  All I see you do is complain.  Might I suggest moving elsewhere?

    Russia was just a pawn in the whole USSR.  To say it was Russia's fault is silly at best.  I thought they taught USSR history to Russians?  That is, if you are even in Russia.  Polands accession into NATO is the only one that made sense.  The rest?  Not so much.  These countries, former Soviet, keep on saying how they want to be free.  But so far, they are not free if they have to follow NATO high command.  Wouldn't freedom mean being independent?  Regardless, this doesn't really make much of a difference.

    For some reason TR1, you have been on some sort of anti Russian tirade lately.  Is something wrong?  I don't quite understand your position as it is clear as day what is happening in Ukraine, yet you blame your own people.  Is this just some sort of self inflicting criticism that is oh so well known amongst Russian's?

    Let me ask you this question: Do you feel betrayed or disgusted how US NGO's are funding opposition but use the excuse to cure TB in Russia?  Do you think you would be quite mad at US and NATO if they started to fund groups and protests in Russia to destabilize it, like they did in Ukraine?  If not, then I wonder why you bothered to stay....

    The last part took already place several times under Putin, where Anna Rosa, ukrainian jew were in russia paying demonstrants to go to Anti-Putin demos over US NGO's.

    Also you are what you feel like, if you feel like a russian you are one, and TR1 feels not like a russian, whitewashing of western genocides like he made it clear, he does not give a f*ck about million dead civilians in Iraq, but urggh this damn russians killed half a million chechen civilists and posts a Wikishmedia article with sources to Human Rights Watch which is funded by USAID. That tells you alot about the average american and hypocricy.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:19 pm

    Anyway, TR1 I know you are a knowledgeable guy. I just think this anti Putin rhetoric is just getting old. I know the guy isn't perfect and lots can be fixed in your country, but to blame Russia over Ukraine matters is silly. You of all people should be acknowledging the fact that Russian allies or at least partners have been turned in recent years. Look at recently in both Venezuela and Syria are two other examples. I mean, you have not provided proof that Russia is supporting the seps but based upon a feeling. Well, it seems pretty pecurliar that all of this is happening around the same times that Russia is looking to expand its presence past its borders and looking for other partners.

    Anyway, here is a good read:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-27/us-releases-satellite-images-allegedly-proving-russian-shelling-east-ukraine

    Still waiting for US to present their evidence.
    sepheronx
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:29 pm

    http://en.ria.ru/politics/20140727/191355137/US-Indirectly-Admits-Ukraines-Missile-Systems-Present-near-Donetsk.html

    Wow, so things can become a real pain for US in and Ukraine in the coming months. Seems maybe Yatsenuk saw what was happening and bailed out before he can be held responsible.
    Hannibal Barca
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Hannibal Barca Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:31 pm

    About casualties... I have trustworthy sources which say that Ukrainian army suffered tremendous casualties. This source is tested and inside and I consider reliable.
    Additional this is in line with the diplomatic picture we have recently.

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