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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Regular
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Regular Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:42 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Ukrainians should be happy that wasn't an american plan that was shot down, if it was i think we would have a war going.
    Thanks god your country is not very capable military wise Very Happy still there was info that US, Poland and You guys want to secure crash location with Your SF:D If true - Good luck with that
    Flyingdutchman
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:48 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:Ukrainians should be happy that wasn't an american plan that was shot down, if it was i think we would have a war going.
    Thanks god your country is not very capable military wise Very Happy still there was info that US, Poland and You guys want to secure crash location with Your SF:D If true - Good luck with that

    That would be so awesome!!
    Dutch special forces can take care of it Wink
    They are very good you can search Korps Commando Troepen on the web so you can have a look!!

    BTW do you have link with that info in it?
    Would be an interesting read!
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    Post  Regular Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:42 pm

    No offence, but it would be no less bloody that this disaster. I feel sorry for Your countrymen.
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    Post  Firebird Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:55 pm

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/19/the-mh17-shoot-down-over-ukraine/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-mh17-shoot-down-over-ukraine

    I know, I know the website title is enough to put most people off.
    BUT this guy is also saying its a FALSE FLAG BY THE AMERICANS!!!!

    He's a British barrister, and here's an excerpt from his bio:-
    Michael was formerly an Adjunct Professor of Intelligence Studies in what was then the Department of National Security, Intelligence and Space Studies at the American Military University, teaching intelligence subjects at Masters level to inter alia serving intelligence officers. He has represented US and Israeli intelligence officers in law and briefed in staffers on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the Joint Congressional Inquiry into 9-11. In the wake of that murderous attack he addressed panels on terrorism in Washington DC and Los Angeles organized by the respected Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs. Fellow panelists included a former head of Special Operations Command and a former Commander of the US Atlantic Fleet.

    Not exactly a "Kremlin stooge" (a favourite Whitehouse phrase) or "tin foil headed conspiracy theorist".

    We have to remember, the stakes are high, esp for America. THey will do ANYTHING to try and win.
    The more bizarre the plan, the more it will appeal to them.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:57 pm

    Regular wrote:No offence, but it would be no less bloody that this disaster. I feel sorry for Your countrymen.

    Me too, but i've got that feeling that we Can not allies this too happen ( and then i meen that the researchteams still can not research the place right. )

    We don't need more blood no one does but we gotta do something before all the evidence is lost ( if there is evidence )
    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:04 pm

    What kind of evidence you want? A plane was sent over a war zone and shoot down. I don't know whats the big news about this.
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    Post  Airbornewolf Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:12 pm

    Regular wrote:No offence, but it would be no less bloody that this disaster. I feel sorry for Your countrymen.

    actually, a dutch father that had a daughter on MH-17 send a public letter to Putin. he closed his letter asking Putin to take initiative and deploy russian troops to the crash site for an "legitimate, independent investigation by dutch investigators".

    the father is not pointing any fingers, he only says one of three party's are responsible. Ukraine (Kiev), Russia or anti-kiev fighters. but he wants to see hard evidence and clearly he does not trust the media.

    its in dutch but here is the official link: http://www.hartvannederland.nl/top-nieuws/2014/vader-slachtoffer-schrijft-emotionele-brief/




    but either way, propaganda machine here in the west is going full-steam ahead. blaming Russia and Anti-kiev fighters for everything before even an official investigation is launched.

    that crash site is a political burning bomb in the ukraine-crisis. appearantly, the Buk's warhead detonates close to the plane and sends out metal rods flying everywhere. if the aircraft was indeed hit with that those parts are still among the wreckage.

    or... what "carlos" said. the twittering spanish ATC working for Kiev is that MH-17 flew with two ukrainian fighters, and got ordered by the Interior ministry to shoot down MH-17. the fact the radio-traffic and radar-data got seized immidiatly by Kiev's millitary along with the ATC personell makes my gut feeling feel that Kiev indeed is trying to get rid of evidence pointing towards themselves. if it was "proof" of russian/seperatist involvement they would have publicized it immidiatly.

    and on a personal note: im glad the anti-kiev troops have the black-boxes in their possesion. they would have been lost forever if Kiev would found them first. that radio-traffic with ATC or its ukrainian fighter escort might be the undeniable proof to everyone Ukraine's got their hands blooded. witch i almost dare to say for sure, it just makes sense.

    and a good article from RT, basically he has the same viewpoints i have on the matter.
    http://rt.com/op-edge/174088-was-it-putin-missile/
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    Post  Airbornewolf Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:18 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:What kind of evidence you want? A plane was sent over a war zone and shoot down. I don't know whats the big news about this.

    well, no offense but since the west is trying to pin 300 civilian deaths on Russia it would have been nice if Russia can slap back with actual flight-recorder data on those black boxes or some other hard evidence. this is simply a full propaganda-war. witch the Western Media is losing, for example RT's likes on FB alone spiked 33% on thursday's crash when Western Media was already blaming Putin.

    of course i personally would never send a plane flying over an warzone either, but 300 people still got blown out of the sky and someone's head(s) is going to roll for this eventually.
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    Post  Werewolf Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:29 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    Regular wrote:No offence, but it would be no less bloody that this disaster. I feel sorry for Your countrymen.

    Me too, but i've got that feeling that we Can not allies this too happen ( and then i meen that the researchteams still can not research the place right. )

    We don't need more blood no one does but we gotta do something before all the evidence is lost ( if there is evidence )

    Another lie, the western MSM are instructed not to come close to the place, so they have every medial justification to blame Russia that they are not allowed there so they must hiding something. The people there are freely walking no one is hold back from the place, such shit reports by CNN and the rest of conspiracy nutheads already said russians took bodies away to hide them.... yes sure, bringing bodies that are lying around 2 days in the sun to the morgue is hidding bodies. The only conspiracy theories so far coming from MSM of western paid disinformation tools.


    There are several indications that this is all staged, there is also an information, unconfirmed yet, but that reminds me of 911 crap, where jet fuel melts steel grid infrastructure of a building but somehow magically Passports are found fully intact.

    Same case fully intact Passports were "found".

    http://nodisinfo.com/passport-staging-proves-malaysian-airlines-crash-scam/



    So out of this mess, of burned debris, water-foam caught place where collected all the passports clean, undamaged not even with a single passport was crumpled not a little bit crinkly after falling out of the sky...

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    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:33 pm

    Airbornewolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:What kind of evidence you want? A plane was sent over a war zone and shoot down. I don't know whats the big news about this.

    well, no offense but since the west is trying to pin 300 civilian deaths on Russia it would have been nice if Russia can slap back with actual flight-recorder data on those black boxes or some other hard evidence. this is simply a full propaganda-war. witch the Western Media is losing, for example RT's likes on FB alone spiked 33% on thursday's crash when Western Media was already blaming Putin.

    of course i personally would never send a plane flying over an warzone either, but 300 people still got blown out of the sky and someone's head(s) is going to roll for this eventually.


    You got combat experience you know what happened is absolutely normal.
    I would had put this plane down, you would had put it. You can't possibly know is just a blip on the screen.
    Don't blame whoever show it coming and press the button, average Joe might grow sentimental over this but for those who know is just irrelevant
    who gave the order that's all I am seeing. I would say the same no matter who blew it eventually.
    Who send it though is completely different..
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:49 pm

    Airbornewolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:What kind of evidence you want? A plane was sent over a war zone and shoot down. I don't know whats the big news about this.

    well, no offense but since the west is trying to pin 300 civilian deaths on Russia it would have been nice if Russia can slap back with actual flight-recorder data on those black boxes or some other hard evidence. this is simply a full propaganda-war. witch the Western Media is losing, for example RT's likes on FB alone spiked 33% on thursday's crash when Western Media was already blaming Putin.

    of course i personally would never send a plane flying over an warzone either, but 300 people still got blown out of the sky and someone's head(s) is going to roll for this eventually.

    Russia does not have the black boxes.  It is to be given to ICAO once it is retreived or whatever.  Anything the western world is saying regarding this is moot, because they demand putin to do something, but when he does do something, they bitch and moan.  Example:

    - They want border control to prevent people and equipment going over.  Russia had placed a large amount of troops at the border, which was during a military exercise. and the west complained to all ends saying that Russia is building up a military force at the borders and demanded that Russia relaxes and move troops away from the borders.  So they did.

    - They said do not support the seps and try to assist Ukraine.  Russia takes injured Ukrainian forces to Russian hospitals.  Nothing is mentioned in the west about this.

    - West says they want an open fairness to the investigation of the plane crash and demands Russia to be open about it.  Russia states that the black boxes should go to ICAO and that there should be openess to this investigation.  Russia then gets slapped additional sanctions and is blames for the whole crash.

    In other words, no matter what Russia does, unless it is full on invasion of Ukraine which I think is what the west wants, it will be blamed for this whole debacle.  Heck, they are blamed for the civil war, but it was people like John McCain, John Baird, Ashton and the likes who were going to maidan protest and helping with food and what not, and saying how they are backed by the west.  And a democratically elected leader is then overthrown and the whole situation spirals out of control.  Crimea is gained back into Russian territory especially after majority voted to go back to Russia, and the west says that it is because of this, that Separatists were created.

    This whole thing is a joke and the west knows they are lying.  It is their people though who have no idea it seems.

    BTW

    Why should someones head roll over this? Here are some other incidences where a plane was shot out of the sky:

    - 1983 when the soviets shot down the K007 civil aircraft from South Korea.
    - 1988 Iran airflight 655 was shot down by US guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes
    - 2001 Siberian flight 1812 was shot down by a Ukrainian S-200 during an exercise

    In all three of these cases, no ones head rolled. Accidents happen. But of course, if Ukraine gov or US government does it, it is an honest mistake, right?


    Last edited by sepheronx on Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:52 pm

    Whats going on here. Did Novorossia Army just shoot down another An-26?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK6W64eBpGo&feature=youtu.be
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    Post  Austin Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:53 pm

    Biggest Dutch Daily Calls For NATO Intervention To Protect MH17; Feinstein Tells Putin To "Man Up And Confess"

     Dianne Feinstein, chairman of the US Senate Intelligence Committee, has urged Russian President Vladimir Putin to "man up" and admit Russia made a mistake.

     She told CNN: "I think this has become a huge human drama, and I think the nexus between Russia and the separatists has been established very clearly, so the issue is where is Putin?

      
     "I would say, 'Putin, you have to man up. You should talk to the world. You should say, if this is a mistake, which I hope it was, say it.

        
        "I think the world has to rise up and say we've had enough of this.

        "You cannot let this kind of thing happen, and Russia continues to prepare it for the next strike down of a civilian plane. There will be repercussions from this."
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    Post  Austin Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:54 pm

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 19 Bs58XqnCEAEhpmr
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:58 pm

    Austin wrote:Biggest Dutch Daily Calls For NATO Intervention To Protect MH17; Feinstein Tells Putin To "Man Up And Confess"

     Dianne Feinstein, chairman of the US Senate Intelligence Committee, has urged Russian President Vladimir Putin to "man up" and admit Russia made a mistake.

     She told CNN: "I think this has become a huge human drama, and I think the nexus between Russia and the separatists has been established very clearly, so the issue is where is Putin?

      
     "I would say, 'Putin, you have to man up. You should talk to the world. You should say, if this is a mistake, which I hope it was, say it.

        
        "I think the world has to rise up and say we've had enough of this.

        "You cannot let this kind of thing happen, and Russia continues to prepare it for the next strike down of a civilian plane. There will be repercussions from this."

    She should tell the US, Canada and Germany to man up and admit that it was their fault for the innocent lives lost during the maidan protests, and for destabilizing Ukraine, which lead to this aircraft being shot down.  If they didn't stick their nose into the situation, this would never have happened.  Add to that, she should also tell the Ukr President to "Man up" and admit that they should not have let ACO allow civil aircrafts to fly over a warzone that they knew the seperatists had long range Surface to Air missiles.

    But they wont.  So why should Putin admit to anything?

    But here is the best part in all of this. In the west, they always love to talk about how democratic they are by stating the innocence before proven guilty in any crime. Well, the investigations are still ongoing and no one has concrete evidence on who shot the plane down, and with what. So they are being quite the ignorant twats for even making assumptions and suggestions that the separatists did it, especially when they have no evidence.

    The kicker in all of this, is that the average citizen is calling for blood, yet is hypocritical enough to blame Russian justice system for throwing the key away on criminals without proper investigations done. I see they want it their way and that is final. So far, no one has provided any evidence of such, to the world. Yet the witch hunt is already beginning. I think this has more to do with the fact that politicians are using this to their advantage and banking on the dead, to help gain popularity votes in home countries, by "talking tough". So far, only people it has convinced are the people already jumping for joy for a war or destabilizing even further east.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  medo Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:00 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUltrf8n_vA

    This video show traces of chaffs falling slowly to the ground near B777 crash site, what prove the presence of Ukrainian military jet as airliners doesn't have chaffs and flares. Presence of Ukrainian jet prove claims of Spanish dispatcher of Ukrainian fighters shadowing Malaysian airliner.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 19 Origin11

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 19 Origin13

    It's difficult to say, but some claim that those damages on airliner were done by air to air missile, not Buk. If this will be proven for truth, than we know, who is behind this false flag attack.
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    Post  Viktor Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:03 pm

    Nice  thumbsup 

    Der Spiegel: U.S. sanctions against Russian harm German industry
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:42 pm

    Wow those are some hard proofs  Shocked 

    So maybe there is propaganda in the west, what no one believes, This forum made me thinking alot...

    And what when it comes out it were the ukrainians?

    How will the world respond?

    And uuuuhhhh.... Didn't the us do exactly the same with an iranian airplane??
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:43 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Wow those are some hard proofs  Shocked 

    So maybe there is propaganda in the west, what no one believes, This forum made me thinking alot...

    And what when it comes out it were the ukrainians?

    How will the world respond?

    And uuuuhhhh.... Didn't the us do exactly the same with an iranian airplane??

    Yes, as I mentioned, flight 655 in 1988 when a US missile destroyer shot it down, killing about 300 people on board. They chalked it up as a mistake and only paid compensation after they were sued in the international courts by Iran.
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    Post  Airbornewolf Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:50 pm

    medo wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUltrf8n_vA

    This video show traces of chaffs falling slowly to the ground near B777 crash site, what prove the presence of Ukrainian military jet as airliners doesn't have chaffs and flares. Presence of Ukrainian jet prove claims of Spanish dispatcher of Ukrainian fighters shadowing Malaysian airliner.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 19 Origin11

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 19 Origin13

    It's difficult to say, but some claim that those damages on airliner were done by air to air missile, not Buk. If this will be proven for truth, than we know, who is behind this false flag attack.

    thats definatly horizontal shrapnell allright, since the shrapnell went over one of the wings in a rather large angle the missile was targeting the engine under the wing. if it went for radar-lock the missile would have striked the main fuselage.

    and in my opinion it rules out vertical shrapnell too, the steel would all have been bent outwards with little surface damage around the holes. i support that theory too it was an AA missile judging from the picture.

    edit: dutch forum users got the same material, check out their analysis pictures. indeed engine-targeted according to shrapnell-path.

    http://forum.fok.nl/topic/2130358/1/999

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    Last edited by Airbornewolf on Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:55 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Austin wrote:Biggest Dutch Daily Calls For NATO Intervention To Protect MH17; Feinstein Tells Putin To "Man Up And Confess"

     Dianne Feinstein, chairman of the US Senate Intelligence Committee, has urged Russian President Vladimir Putin to "man up" and admit Russia made a mistake.

     She told CNN: "I think this has become a huge human drama, and I think the nexus between Russia and the separatists has been established very clearly, so the issue is where is Putin?

      
     "I would say, 'Putin, you have to man up. You should talk to the world. You should say, if this is a mistake, which I hope it was, say it.

        
        "I think the world has to rise up and say we've had enough of this.

        "You cannot let this kind of thing happen, and Russia continues to prepare it for the next strike down of a civilian plane. There will be repercussions from this."

    She should tell the US, Canada and Germany to man up and admit that it was their fault for the innocent lives lost during the maidan protests, and for destabilizing Ukraine, which lead to this aircraft being shot down.  If they didn't stick their nose into the situation, this would never have happened.  Add to that, she should also tell the Ukr President to "Man up" and admit that they should not have let ACO allow civil aircrafts to fly over a warzone that they knew the seperatists had long range Surface to Air missiles.

    But they wont.  So why should Putin admit to anything?

    But here is the best part in all of this.  In the west, they always love to talk about how democratic they are by stating the innocence before proven guilty in any crime.  Well, the investigations are still ongoing and no one has concrete evidence on who shot the plane down, and with what.  So they are being quite the ignorant twats for even making assumptions and suggestions that the separatists did it, especially when they have no evidence.

    The kicker in all of this, is that the average citizen is calling for blood, yet is hypocritical enough to blame Russian justice system for throwing the key away on criminals without proper investigations done.  I see they want it their way and that is final.  So far, no one has provided any evidence of such, to the world.  Yet the witch hunt is already beginning.  I think this has more to do with the fact that politicians are using this to their advantage and banking on the dead, to help gain popularity votes in home countries, by "talking tough".  So far, only people it has convinced are the people already jumping for joy for a war or destabilizing even further east.

    I say let Whine-stein jump on to a civil airliner and let Russians fire SAM missiles at her aircraft for target practice, to confirm whether or not the Russians are capable of shooting down the Malaysian airliner... Razz 
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:57 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:Wow those are some hard proofs  Shocked 

    So maybe there is propaganda in the west, what no one believes, This forum made me thinking alot...

    And what when it comes out it were the ukrainians?

    How will the world respond?

    And uuuuhhhh.... Didn't the us do exactly the same with an iranian airplane??

    Yes, as I mentioned, flight 655 in 1988 when a US missile destroyer shot it down, killing about 300 people on board.  They chalked it up as a mistake and only paid compensation after they were sued in the international courts by Iran.

    ...And they only had to pay a measly sum for their "mistake".
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:11 pm

    But who declares a buk missile system going over the border with only two missiles instead of 4, a few houres after the crash?
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:16 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:But who declares a buk missile system going over the border with only two missiles instead of 4, a few houres after the crash?

    No one but Ukrainians. They claimed that it was the buk. But unfortunately, you can take a picture of nearly any place in Ukraine and call it "this or that" location and no one west will even know or question the location at hand. There are claims the same BUK is at one location or another.

    Don't forget, they been shooting at other aircrafts too, AN-26's before hand. So who is to say that it isn't already a Buk that has been used prior?
    Flyingdutchman
    Flyingdutchman

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Flyingdutchman Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:17 pm

    You guys have answers to everything  Laughing 

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

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