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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Regular
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  Regular Tue May 27, 2014 1:12 pm

    Vann7
    I doubt there will be Russian genocide in the east. You don't have to kill someone who will bow to You.
    You can ban Russian language, supress their culture and etc, but they will be quite. Oh no eastern Ukrainians(I won't call them Russians anymore..) will never fight, they will let volunteers die for their cause.
    Slave mentality at work.
    Can't call it other way.
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    Post  arpakola Tue May 27, 2014 1:17 pm

    Western civilization is mostly Roman with few spoils of Greek ideas

    and what is Roman civilization then ? what was the language the ROMAN empire speaking outside their home ?
    Try to read Roman history for the period 350 BC - 150BC..
    (when Galates invated Rome .. romans run to the nearby Greek cities for safety.. even their alphabet is Greek "old Eretrian" )
    but lets see now Ukraine..
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    Post  Regular Tue May 27, 2014 1:23 pm

    You don't have to go that far to define western civilisation. You can say what ever but fortunately or not Russia is part of western civilisation too. It gave great deal of culture in Tsaristic times from music to architecture. No matter how backward Russian empire was, but it gave birth to one of the brightest people of those times. Russians are more European then lets say Romanians.
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    Post  Firebird Tue May 27, 2014 1:27 pm

    The hohols and those in the middle had their election.

    Sorry, but I really, really cant see the reason for holding back now.
    888 cost nearly 70 Russian lives. Delaying intervention cost huge numbers of Russian/Ossetian/Abkhazian civillian and military lives.

    The death toll is terrible. It will get worse and worse.
    Call them peacekeepers, call them whatever. But SURELY its time for Russia to intervene.

    What does Putin want? A round of applause from Bathhouse Barry Obama for letting Russian people die?

    Enough is enough. Just like S Ossetia.
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    Post  Werewolf Tue May 27, 2014 1:45 pm

    This "Anti-Terrorist" Criminal actions by Fascist against russians in the east are nothing else but the US directed action to provocate russia to send in troops, they need it on so many levels.

    That would give them the opportunity to envile russia and not only shady talks about "russian invasions" without actual proof. They only try to provocate russia by all means, killing civilians with genocide by american/israeli/british/german blackops which is already proven from day one on maidan.

    The goal is to get a major war with russia with lives of europeans countries, i will remember you guys the US had a plan in the 70s (not sure about the right decade) that in a scenario where US would have a war with Soviet Union, Germany should be used as a nomans land. The plan was to lure as many of Soviet Troops onto german soil and than nuke the Soviet Army with Tactical Nukes. There was even with Bundeswehr a simulation for years and the average number of Nukes was 300, were suppossed to be used to decimate Soviet Troops and comprimise it enough to start an offensive on Soviet Union.

    The US and the elite behind it doesn't give a shit about not a single human in Europe or anywhere else, they would gladly kill 100 europeans for 10 russians.

    Putin knows that and that is the reason why he is not sending in troops, this is now a war of special forces and information war, the time plays against USA and the fascists in Kiew that is why they are making such a major war against own civilians to give ultimate justification to Russia to send in troops.

    I hope we will see soon Timoshenko,Jezenjuk,Yarosh all the other fascist scum and American,Israel,German,British mercenaries dead. People should stop fighting symptomps and cut out the cancer which is the EU,US and kiew head.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  Vann7 Tue May 27, 2014 1:59 pm

    arpakola wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:Looks like the Donetsk forces got a very bad day.. They report about 50 of their forces killed and 50 civilians too.
    Probably the most violent attack of kiev on Donetsk forces.. The Right Sector apparently killed with a sniper rifle the driver of a truck carrying wounded people and finished the rest wiht a grenade rocket on the truck...

    I think the donetsk Forces once told they have about 2,000 soldiers..
    I cannot believe a city with 2-3 million citizens can only get such low number of fighters. It goes again and again to the very same
    Problem. A problem that i noticed ,when the Euromaidan was attacking police in kiev and burning buildings and yakunovych was in power. The Pro Yakunovych civilians FAT LAZY as hell . They did nothing. Absolutely NOTHING.. to organize and go to kiev to help police to counter the euromaidan protest... And when they siege power.. in February.. it was not until a month later they began to siege buildings..  In Mariupol only 50 grandmas were holding a building.  they could have saved many many lives only if.. they decided to kick their asses and stop being lazy and do something and start a major uprising .  But like one interview i saw.. to one Pro Yakunovych citizens.. he was asked
    if he was going to the protest Pro Yakunovych.. he reply..?  ME?  Oh noooo not me.. i have better things to do ,than to go
    to a protest.  Rolling Eyes     So thats the problem with eastern and southern regions in Ukraine..  the lack of active participation is abysmal. IF they had taken control for example..
    Of Odessa <Mariupol and all Souther Cities. Including Kharkiv.. and deployed Barriers ,just like Donetsk did.. it will have forced the Kiev junta to negotiate.. and give them autonomy.. But no one did anything..  So now Russia is in a difficult position.. that if they invade.. Donetsk or Lugansk. For sure the ukraine army will leave.  But then Russians will start to be killed in other cities by Right Sector.. and in the end Russia will be forced to invade all Ukraine to protect Etnic Russians..  Is not really a good plan.. to invade .as sad at it is..and knowing how many lives will be lost  because It will only provoke more violence against Russians in *Other cities.*
    So Russia to protect civilians will have to end invading all Ukraine ,to do what Ukrainians do not do by themselves,with a huge Army and with many loses in roadside bombs and ambush.

    IF  Russia just wait ,a year or two ,and allow Ukrainians to Experience the hard way ,that joining the EU will not automatically turn into
    Gold their cities ,and that their economy move from Bad to worse..and that half of the nation is jobless.. then thats when the real revolution will start.. and a Russian invasion will not be needed at all.. Civilians alone in the millions will overthrow their nazi government.

    Anyone knows how many Soldiers , The Donetsk and lugansk forces have more or less?  last number i read was about 2,000..  ??


    Today's morning except the destruction of infrastructure, the Junta has done nothing. The airport is controlled by our militia, in the battles we are winning. Junta retreated, although we didn't use all our strength. Riot police battalion "Vostok" fought and pushed the military Junta. But there're enemy snipers who shot an ambulance car. This was done in order to shoot at those volunteers who will rescue the wounded. The only thing we lack is the weapon for clearance of aircraft and armored vehicles. If we do, we would've chased the Nazis to Kiev. But Ukrainian military received us at hand: when they blow up their warehouses with ammunition, so they aren't inherited. At the pace they have never left the shoot.

    Im confused now.. Kiev authorities say they control the Donetsk Airport now..that killed a dozen there and have no casualties from their side . But here DOnetsk leadership says they control it.   And if the Donetsk forces  50 soldiers and 50 civilians .. how can they be winning?
    There is also reports that Donetsk is asking civilians to leave Slaviansk ,and that kieiv forces will storm Donetsk city at any moment.

    Aside note ,I think no one will question that Russia could easily invade and control in just one day all DOnetsk and Lugansk..
    My only concern will be ,that NATO could smuggle mercenaries in civilian clothes well armed with lethal weapons like Spike missiles with 25km range and TV camera guidance..on top of drones and precision artillery.  Anyone know what Russia have that could defend
    their army and tanks against top attacks missiles like Spike missiles? how about defense against Precision mortar artillery or shells?


    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue May 27, 2014 2:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Tue May 27, 2014 2:04 pm

    Vann7 wrote:... Kiev authorities say ...

    I would say the keyword is "say".

    Have the nazi terrorists ever said anything that was not a lie?
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    Post  Regular Tue May 27, 2014 2:07 pm

    To be fair rebels lie a lot too. Infowar
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    Post  arpakola Tue May 27, 2014 2:12 pm

    Werewolf wrote:This "Anti-Terrorist" Criminal actions by Fascist against russians in the east are nothing else but the US directed action to provocate russia to send in troops, they need it on so many levels.

    That would give them the opportunity to envile russia and not only shady talks about "russian invasions" without actual proof. They only try to provocate russia by all means, killing civilians with genocide by american/israeli/british/german blackops which is already proven from day one on maidan.

    The goal is to get a major war with russia with lives of europeans countries, i will remember you guys the US had a plan in the 70s (not sure about the right decade) that in a scenario where US would have a war with Soviet Union, Germany should be used as a nomans land. The plan was to lure as many of Soviet Troops onto german soil and than nuke the Soviet Army with Tactical Nukes. There was even with Bundeswehr a simulation for years and the average number of Nukes was 300, were suppossed to be used to decimate Soviet Troops and comprimise it enough to start an offensive on Soviet  Union.

    The US and the elite behind it doesn't give a shit about not a single human in Europe or anywhere else, they would gladly kill 100 europeans for 10 russians.

    Putin knows that and that is the reason why he is not sending in troops, this is now a war of special forces and information war, the time plays against USA and the fascists in Kiew that is why they are making such a major war against own civilians to give ultimate justification to Russia to send in troops.

    I hope we will see soon Timoshenko,Jezenjuk,Yarosh all the other fascist scum and American,Israel,German,British mercenaries dead. People should stop fighting symptomps and cut out the cancer which is the EU,US and kiew head.

    ok but a lot of Iglas needed and RPGs of higher grade of what is available..
    they cannot stand a war if their bigest weapon is this..
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 26 U5tw45tw45ntitled
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    Post  AirCargo Tue May 27, 2014 2:22 pm

    arpakola wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    arpakola wrote:Greece withdraws its F16 fleet from the forecoming NATO drill over Black sea with the code <Thracian Star 2014>

    After the announcement of the european parlaiment elections , and the fact that the 1st (SYRIZA) and 3rd party (Golden Dawn) are Pro Russian or almost pro russian.. , Greece has forced from public opinion to withdraw the F16 (already sent) from the NATO drill Thracian Star 2014


    You seriously think that SYRIZA is Russian friendly?..... oh boy you are in for a nasty surprise!
    Anyway, I do support the election of SYRIZA on power since after this the door for REAL developments will finally be open...

    They are forced from the majority of their members to be .. or to look like.


    arpakola wrote "They are forced from the majority of their members to be .. or to look like."
    They are forced to be or look pro-Russian. russia    That is hilarious! lol! 

    Golden Dawn, now those are some neo-Nazi's and very proud of it; their flag is a mildly modified swastika and their delegates give the Hitler salute in parliament.  There's plenty of photo's on the web, kind of like the Kremlin friendly Hungarian Jobbik.

    arpakola please sight your source for the Thracian Star withdraw.
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    Post  Vann7 Tue May 27, 2014 2:26 pm

    Just a few questions..

    1) what Russian army have to counter top attack with 25km range spike missiles? Can arena protection defend against spike?
        how about Russia mobile sams.. like pantsir can they counter such small missiles as anti tank grenade/ rockets?  
    2)What defense Russia have against Precision attacks of artillery?
    3) What kind easy portable anti tank weapon will be ideal for every rebel to have ?
        The RPG-26 is very light but only have 200m of range wiht 400mm penetration. The Kornet is too heavy for a single person to carry one..
        Perhaps the ideal easy portable antitank weapon for the rebels will be RPG-29?  have 750mm armor penetration and about 650m range.
        and weight only  ~11kg. what will be the ultimate portable anti tank weapon for the Rebels to get?
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    Post  Regular Tue May 27, 2014 2:36 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    Just a few questions..

    1) what Russian army have to counter top attack with 25km range spike missiles? Can arena protection defend against spike?
        how about Russia mobile sams.. like pantsir can they counter such small missiles?  
    2)What defense Russia have against Precision attacks of artillery?
    3) What kind cheap man highly portable anti tank weapon will be ideal for every rebel to have ?
        The RPG-26 is very light but only have 200m of range wiht 400mm penetration. The Kornet is too heavy for a single person to carry one..
        Perhaps the ideal easy portable antitank weapon for the rebels will be RPG-29?  have 750mm armor penetration and about 650m range.
        and weight only  ~11kg
    1. Who fields such spike missile? Arena might or might not protect, there are no 100 percent.. Arena is not widely used same goes to spike er. Not sure if it can be engaged by sam, but if pantsyr would get a lock on it it would send burst of metal to its direction. But if you have pantsyr next to atgm teams it means you are doing it wrong.
    2. Well shoraad can take arty shells. Either that best protection is shoot and scoot, counter arty and etc.
    3. Metis, metis m?


    Last edited by Regular on Tue May 27, 2014 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  arpakola Tue May 27, 2014 2:37 pm

    AirCargo wrote:
    arpakola wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    arpakola wrote:Greece withdraws its F16 fleet from the forecoming NATO drill over Black sea with the code <Thracian Star 2014>

    After the announcement of the european parlaiment elections , and the fact that the 1st (SYRIZA) and 3rd party (Golden Dawn) are Pro Russian or almost pro russian.. , Greece has forced from public opinion to withdraw the F16 (already sent) from the NATO drill Thracian Star 2014


    You seriously think that SYRIZA is Russian friendly?..... oh boy you are in for a nasty surprise!
    Anyway, I do support the election of SYRIZA on power since after this the door for REAL developments will finally be open...

    They are forced from the majority of their members to be .. or to look like.


    arpakola wrote "They are forced from the majority of their members to be .. or to look like."
    They are forced to be or look pro-Russian. russia    That is hilarious! lol! 

    Golden Dawn, now those are some neo-Nazi's and very proud of it; their flag is a mildly modified swastika and their delegates give the Hitler salute in parliament.  There's plenty of photo's on the web, kind of like the Kremlin friendly Hungarian Jobbik.

    arpakola please sight your source for the Thracian Star withdraw.
    http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/item/%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BA%CE%B5-%CE%B7-%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE-%CE%B1%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%B1%CF%80%CF%8C-%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7-%CE%BB%CF%8C%CE%B3%CF%89-%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%B8%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%AE%CF%82-%CE%B5%CE%BC%CF%80%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%BA%CE%AE%CF%82-%CE%BC%CE%B5-%CF%81%CF%89%CF%83%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AC-%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%B7%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AC


    As for Golden Dawn, yes they are fascists, but as they beleave that our national interest is with Russia are Pro Russians..
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Tue May 27, 2014 2:43 pm

    AirCargo wrote:
    arpakola wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    arpakola wrote:Greece withdraws its F16 fleet from the forecoming NATO drill over Black sea with the code <Thracian Star 2014>

    After the announcement of the european parlaiment elections , and the fact that the 1st (SYRIZA) and 3rd party (Golden Dawn) are Pro Russian or almost pro russian.. , Greece has forced from public opinion to withdraw the F16 (already sent) from the NATO drill Thracian Star 2014


    You seriously think that SYRIZA is Russian friendly?..... oh boy you are in for a nasty surprise!
    Anyway, I do support the election of SYRIZA on power since after this the door for REAL developments will finally be open...

    They are forced from the majority of their members to be .. or to look like.


    arpakola wrote "They are forced from the majority of their members to be .. or to look like."
    They are forced to be or look pro-Russian. russia    That is hilarious! lol! 

    Golden Dawn, now those are some neo-Nazi's and very proud of it; their flag is a mildly modified swastika and their delegates give the Hitler salute in parliament.  There's plenty of photo's on the web, kind of like the Kremlin friendly Hungarian Jobbik.

    arpakola please sight your source for the Thracian Star withdraw.


    So much about the moderator calling my stance against you preoccupied.
    Just makes me wonder, since you are anti-Russian, and I am perfectly fine with this, what exactly you doing here, I do wonder..
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    Post  Vann7 Tue May 27, 2014 3:18 pm



    The Jewish magazine FORBES,, say that Ukraine needs a Dictator like Pinochet to fix the country..

    http://actualidad.rt.com/economia/view/129189-forbes-ucrania-pinochet-solucion

    So now the Zionist elite ,not even hide their anti humanity stance and suggest one of the most Brutal
    Dictators that lived in South America ..to rule in Ukraine ,that was the cause of many Thousands killed and
    that filled jails with political Prisoners.. I don't think anything at this point can surprise anyone of them..
    Since also support the Nazis in Ukraine..
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    Post  sepheronx Tue May 27, 2014 5:18 pm

    So Poroshenko is requesting US assistance? Well, if that is the case, I dont blame Russians for want to support separatists in Ukraine then. Putin, if you sit around more doing nothing, then expect more ABM and NATO airforce near your border.
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    Post  medo Tue May 27, 2014 5:55 pm

    Firebird wrote:The hohols and those in the middle had their election.

    Sorry, but I really, really cant see the reason for holding back now.
    888 cost nearly 70 Russian lives. Delaying intervention cost  huge numbers of Russian/Ossetian/Abkhazian civillian and military lives.

    The death toll is terrible. It will get worse and worse.
    Call them peacekeepers, call them whatever. But SURELY its time for Russia to intervene.

    What does Putin want? A round of applause from Bathhouse Barry Obama for letting Russian people die?

    Enough is enough. Just like S Ossetia.

    There were two differences in South Ossetia. One is, that Georgians attack Russian peacekeeping battalion and the second is, that Ossetians defend fully themselves from the first day. Why would Russia intervene now in Novorussia, when they didn't yet make full mobilization of reservists for defense. When they will make full mobilization, Russia could supply them some MANPADs and ATGMs.

    I don't know, if Poroshenko have now presidential powers. I'm not sure if election commission give official numbers jet and he didn't make his oath yet, so there is big possibility, that this operations are still leaded by Turchinov and Sakashvili. As I know, Poroshenko was minister in Janukovich government, so it will be interesting to see, how will talks between him and Putin go.
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    Post  medo Tue May 27, 2014 6:14 pm

    Vann7 wrote:Just a few questions..

    1) what Russian army have to counter top attack with 25km range spike missiles? Can arena protection defend against spike?
        how about Russia mobile sams.. like pantsir can they counter such small missiles as anti tank grenade/ rockets?  
    2)What defense Russia have against Precision attacks of artillery?
    3) What kind easy portable anti tank weapon will be ideal for every rebel to have ?
        The RPG-26 is very light but only have 200m of range wiht 400mm penetration. The Kornet is too heavy for a single person to carry one..
        Perhaps the ideal easy portable antitank weapon for the rebels will be RPG-29?  have 750mm armor penetration and about 650m range.
        and weight only  ~11kg. what will be the ultimate portable anti tank weapon for the Rebels to get?

    25 km range Spike? Well, it is quite big missile and Spike fly high and slow, so it will fly quite some time over those 25 km. Anyway, Spike NLOS is quite easy target for modern SHORAD supporting tanks as it fly high and slow and is also quite big and even modernized ZSU-23-4 with improved radar electronics could shot it down. At the end, supporting infantry could also shot it down with MANPAD like Igla or Igla-S, if supporting AD alerted them and give them their targets through Barnaul-T complex.

    Maybe even modern FCS with thermal imager in IFV or BMPT could lock on such missile and fire on them, when alerted from AD behind them. 25 km is quite a long distance for slow missile, so anyone have quite a lot of time to find it, lock on it and shot it down.

    Against precision artillery attacks, it depend on guidance. For laser guidance, heavy smoke is good. For GPS guided, you need strong GPS jammers.

    The best portable ATGM for rebels is Metis-M1, because it is light weight launcher and have 2 km range, tandem HEAT and TI for night operations.
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    Post  Firebird Tue May 27, 2014 6:33 pm

    medo wrote:
    Firebird wrote:The hohols and those in the middle had their election.

    Sorry, but I really, really cant see the reason for holding back now.
    888 cost nearly 70 Russian lives. Delaying intervention cost  huge numbers of Russian/Ossetian/Abkhazian civillian and military lives.

    The death toll is terrible. It will get worse and worse.
    Call them peacekeepers, call them whatever. But SURELY its time for Russia to intervene.

    What does Putin want? A round of applause from Bathhouse Barry Obama for letting Russian people die?

    Enough is enough. Just like S Ossetia.

    There were two differences in South Ossetia.  One is, that Georgians attack Russian peacekeeping battalion and the second is, that Ossetians defend fully themselves from the first day. Why would Russia intervene now in Novorussia, when they didn't yet make full mobilization of reservists for defense. When they will make full mobilization, Russia could supply them some MANPADs and ATGMs.

    I don't know, if Poroshenko have now presidential powers. I'm not sure if election commission give official numbers jet and he didn't make his oath yet, so there is big possibility, that this operations are still leaded by Turchinov and Sakashvili. As I know, Poroshenko was minister in Janukovich government, so it will be interesting to see, how will talks between him and Putin go.

    But in S Ossetia, Medvedev made it clear that the operation was because Ossetian civillians were being killed. And that Sucktievilli was a lunatic who wouldn't obey basic human rights principles.

    We haven't even got Russian peacekeepers in NovoRossiya... or Khakov, Odessa, or the Mother City of Russia ie Kiev.

    You cant expect accountants and carpenters in Donbass to suddenly become warriors with MANPADS etc. Thats why Russia spends vast sums on its military. Vast sums that many people West of the current Russian borders want to contribute to.

    I've looked at the legal background. Its all bullshit. I'm amazed the Ukraine stood as long as it did as a single indep state. The intl relats background is just as bullshit. The West doesnt like Russia, even if it behaves as a saint. It never will like Russia, unless Russia wants to be its bitch.

    Democracy is finished in the Ukraine. 6% of the pro RUssia vote has joined Russia. And another 18% is in Donbass. Even more people in Odessa, Kharkov etc wont recognise the Kiev junta, whatever form it takes.

    If democracy is finished, only power - hard and soft will rescue the Russians/pro Russians.
    What has soft power done over the last 23 yrs? Fuck all really. The situation has got vastly worse not better. Were Russian speakers murdered in 1991? Were Russian speakers bombed by Nazis?

    Maybe under Communism, Russia was sometimes TOO authoritarian, atleast thats what some say. Personally, I cant really see much evidence of that. But anyway, Russia has gone too standoffish.
    Maybe Putin has information overload. Maybe the kremlin cant see that it didnt show enough force.

    America and the Nazis are doing everything they can to get bases in Lugansk. Everything to ultimately destroy a Russian sphere of influence in the world. PR doesnt matter any more, nor does democracy or soft power. They have all had their influence, but now they are all trumped by action. Action which the |Kremlin just hasnt wanted to take.

    Do you think Britain would stand aside if Gibraltans were murdered? Or the US if this shit happened in Diego Garcia? Ocourse not.

    PS look at this
    http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_05_27/Ukraine-Poland-Lithuania-plan-to-establish-joint-military-unit-8461/
    The longer the Hohol disease is left in place, the more damage it will cause.

    PPS
    I'm starting to wonder if Putin is the right man for Russia. Up until recently, I had a lot of admiration for him. Aside from the oligarchy issue, I couldnt really criticise him. Now unfortunately, I'm wondering if he's started to believe his/the Kremlin's own hype...

    Maybe you can "trade" a few lives. But if you keep yelling "stop", and your enemy laughs at you, everyone will see you as an idiot.


    Last edited by Firebird on Tue May 27, 2014 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Vann7


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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  Vann7 Tue May 27, 2014 7:22 pm

    Just look at the next video..

    https://youtu.be/lG7K_xXhcro

    This is what so sickening about Ukrainians..  If you notice in the video a young Girl helping in the defense
    of his city while two adults in the background near the end ,very relaxed ,enjoying the sun ,with their hands in their pockets.. watching and doing NOTHING. It just makes me want hit with a baseball bat the bastards that do nothing to help their city defense and just observe young Girls do the work that mens are supposed to do.  Ukrainians are a disgrace ,the worse kind of people you can find ,when it comes to team
    work and cooperation. Whats wrong with Ukrainians there?  90% of people voted joining Russia referendum.. but only .001% shows
    in rallies for independence and even less when it comes to help the defense of their nation.

    How can Russia help such a nation? That do not help themselves? And to make things worse you have Lukashenko threatening
    Russia to Not invade Ukraine.. is like Russia have their hands tied and will not be able to help ,Unless majority of Ukrainians wake
    up and stop doing nothing and all come to help in their defense .


    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue May 27, 2014 7:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
    medo
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  medo Tue May 27, 2014 7:23 pm

    Firebird wrote:You cant expect accountants and carpenters in Donbass to suddenly become warriors with MANPADS etc. Thats why Russia spends vast sums on its military. Vast sums that many people West of the current Russian borders want to contribute to.

    Russia spend money on its military to defend Russian Federation and its citizens, not Ukraine and their citizens. They have their own army.

    Yes, I expect those accountants and carpenters in Donbass to become Donetsk armed forces and to defend themselves. Ukraine have conscript army and all males serve in the army and they are military reservists. Their homes and families are attacked by Kiev junta. It is on Donetsk and Lugansk government to start full mobilization of reservists and start defending their homes. If they have no will to do it, than there is no sense for Russia to defend them. They have to mobilize them, train them and form commanding structure. They have enough reserve officers to do that. They could not depend on few voluntiers for a long time. Only for shorter time to prepare reservist units for fight.
    zino
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  zino Tue May 27, 2014 8:30 pm

    It seems to me that this thread has been derailed by borderline discussions about nazi worshipers in the EU and antisemitic crap. I humbly suggest you to return in topic. This forum has value, it would be a shame to demote it through delusional debates.
    IMHO Russia doesn't act because there is no military solution of the problems, just like in Syria. Putin, during the Q/A time some week ago, said that in Crimea almost the whole population is pro Russia, while in the SE of Ukraine the ratio is around 50/50. For that reason a military intervention would trigger the pro-west population resistance. AFAIK South Ossetia and Abkhazia are more like Crimea than SE Ukr.
    Of course in case of mass murdering an intervention will be mandatory, but only to stop that. Then they will have to return to a political solution.
    And to be clear: me also I would like to crush those fucking bastards but we have to cope with the current reality.
    For now the state of Novorussia is very unlikely, sadly.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  Firebird Tue May 27, 2014 10:17 pm

    medo wrote:
    Firebird wrote:You cant expect accountants and carpenters in Donbass to suddenly become warriors with MANPADS etc. Thats why Russia spends vast sums on its military. Vast sums that many people West of the current Russian borders want to contribute to.

    Russia spend money on its military to defend Russian Federation and its citizens, not Ukraine and their citizens. They have their own army.

    Yes, I expect those accountants and carpenters in Donbass to become Donetsk armed forces and to defend themselves. Ukraine have conscript army and all males serve in the army and they are military reservists. Their homes and families are attacked by Kiev junta. It is on Donetsk and Lugansk government to start full mobilization of reservists and start defending their homes. If they have no will to do it, than there is no sense for Russia to defend them. They have to mobilize them, train them and form commanding structure. They have enough reserve officers to do that. They could not depend on few voluntiers for a long time. Only for shorter time to prepare reservist units for fight.

    I think these pts were all addressed earlier in the thread. Anyway:-

    1) THese are Russian people, Russian lands, even if they aren't Russian citizens. Remember dual citizenship was banned in the Ukraine.

    2)The whole so called indep state of the Ukraine, was actually a creation of a drunken idiot called Yeltsin and some dubious cronies. This was never the intended result of the dissolution of the USSR, or of the creation of the Ukrainian SSR. Therefore there is no justification for the Kiev idiots to make any demands against separatists. The Ukraine is a small part of the CiS/ FSU. Therefore, its claims carry no democratic weight. Likewise, any democratic strength it has is only as a result of the mass genocide of Russians in the Gr Patriotic War.

    3)Are you Russian or of Russian descent? Or Slovakian? I cannot understand why you dont accept pts like the above.

    4)Russian intervened in Chechnya. And most Russians, acc to polls think Russia has more business in the Ukraine than in CHechnya or Ossetia etc. And in any case, this isnt Iraq or Africa or Vietnam.

    5)The Russian military is to defend Russian people. As a subsidiary pt, it is to defend legitimate Russian interests. If stopping mass murder isnt "legitimate", then I dont know what is. In addition it might just stop US nukes being positioned in Lugansk, further mass murder... and the disintegration of the Russian Fedn, according to the wacko American Brzezhnsky's plans.

    Yes, the Ukr has its "own" army. And guess what? Its been hijacked by Nazis, or wants to stand aside.

    6)There have been massive protests all over the S East. Some of them resulted in mass murder... surely you saw Odessa etc? The Maiden loons protests were NOTHING like those of the S East. But they were backed by the EU and US with militias in key positions to intimidate. Looks like Russia hasnt backed its side enough. Because the Nazis are in "govt", not the pro Russians.

    7)The 2 referendums were gigantically overwhelming. Lugansk and Donetsk are not remotely 50:50.
    Just look at the results. Putin must have been referring to other areas.

    8)Lug and Do are about 8m people, vs the jets, tanks, choppers of many, many millions.
    You cant say that people with handguns etc can defeat Su-27s etc.
    Countries dont spend  billions on arms because they look cool. Its because expensive arms beat handguns and bats etc.

    9)Russia wants the world to think it is "civilised". Saying to Russian people "We're ok mate, you fight this on your own" does NOT convey an idea that Russia is civilised. You cant change carpenters into supermen overnight, and certainly NOT when they are fighting Sukhois and Migs.

    The Ukrainian attacks have been cowardly and indesciminate. The S and East are large areas. You cant suddenly mobilise large numbers of irregulars 10s of miles away to defeat choppers and jets. Its hard enough against tanks when you have limited weaponry.

    Ultimately, if Russia wont help Russian people, eventually people may say "well then I dont want to be part of Russia".

    8)My guess is that Putin has caught the political equivalent of "stage fright".
    I fear something has gone wrong with Russia's policies and they dont know how to fix it.
    Hopefully my fears are unfounded. But its getting very disturbing now.


    Last edited by Firebird on Tue May 27, 2014 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  Firebird Tue May 27, 2014 10:25 pm

    zino wrote:It seems to me that this thread has been derailed by borderline discussions about nazi worshipers in the EU and antisemitic crap. I humbly suggest you to return in topic. This forum has value, it would be a shame to demote it through delusional debates.
    IMHO Russia doesn't act because there is no military solution of the problems, just like in Syria. Putin, during the Q/A time some week ago, said that in Crimea almost the whole population is pro Russia, while in the SE of Ukraine the ratio is around 50/50. For that reason a military intervention would trigger the pro-west population resistance. AFAIK South Ossetia and Abkhazia are more like Crimea than SE Ukr.
    Of course in case of mass murdering an intervention will be mandatory, but only to stop that. Then they will have to return to a political solution.
    And to be clear: me also I would like to crush those fucking bastards but we have to cope with the current reality.
    For now the state of Novorussia is very unlikely, sadly.

    Yes there is some anti-semetic nonsense in here. I've read holocaust denialists happily posting crap on several occassions.

    Unfortunately there is some Nazism in the EU. But much bigger is the group of people who use Nazis for their own ends.

    Re "no solution", Putin has said he reserves the right to intervene. So there must be a military option, but he declines to use it. The Ukraine does divide up pretty clearly into pro and anti Russia. This is illustrated most strongly by the Lug and Don referendums. There is also a grey area - Kiev and some Central areas. Yugoslavia didnt divide neatly. Only armed peacekeepers could help the situation. As a unitary state it had failed.

    Soft power and Mr Niceguy have failed. Only one option left..

    The Ukr army is a joke. It makes Sucktievilli's army look powerful. The longer Putin drags it on, the more the Ukr can rearm.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 26 Empty A Few Observations

    Post  calripson Tue May 27, 2014 11:03 pm

    The support to join Russia is not nearly as uniform in Donetsk and Lugansk as it seems and even less so in other areas. The younger generation (under 30) has essentially no memory of living in a unified state and has been subject to Ukrainian propaganda via media and school for 23 years.

    From a military perspective it is clear that Putin has decided to not intervene directly. Given that, local militia cannot stand and fight to hold ground against an enemy with superior firepower and an airforce. Smaller team tactics and use of IEDs, mines, mortars, sniper ect would seem to be the logical reaction. The conflict is ultimately political and time is a critical factor. The only way I see Donetsk or Lugansk gaining independence is if the rest of Ukraine gets sick and tired of the cost of holding those lands. That would only be the result of a long, protracted conflict. Poroshenko wants a quick, decisive victory.

    It is informative to ask what would America or NATO do in the same situation: clearly they would covertly supply intelligence, weapons, and aid as they do in Syria and perhaps Russia is doing this in Ukraine. The other thing they would do is declare a "no fly zone" over Donetsk and Lugansk. Putin cannot do this as he risks direct NATO intervention and he knows (despite what some people would like to think) that establishing air superiority is America's forte and Russia is no match for America or NATO on this regard.

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