Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

Flyingdutchman wrote:Will the russian navy fitt the kuznetsov with catapults?

seems unlikely.

Better built a new ship with it.

Yeah i heard the mig 29 dont needs catapults so why would they. Will they replace the su-33 with more mig 29 aircraft? Or maybe a naval version of mig 35?

Flyingdutchman wrote: Or maybe a naval version of mig 35?

Mig 29K is the Naval Variant of the MIG 35 . The Russian Navy may well choose an AESA radar for the MIG 29K .

As of now the MIG 29K will remain the mainstay before the naval version of the PAK FA makes it's debut .

Requires the PAK FA a catapult to be launched?

I am almost 100% sure we will see MiG-29K with Zhuk-M2.
They are being built already and Zhuk-AE won't be ready for some years to come.

None of the fighters currently operational on the Kuznetsov need cats to launch, which means Mig-29K, Su-33K, and of course the naval Su-25.

I rather doubt a naval PAK FA would require cats to operate from the K as it is smaller than the Su-33K and has rather more installed thrust and its normal payloads will be relatively light internal air to air loads with very low drag.

Cats are not generally used for fighters, but more for heavy strike aircraft and AEW and AWACS type aircraft, though transport and tanker aircraft can also use them.

The benefit from a Cat system on the Kuznetsov will not be for the fighters allowing them to carry more weapons and fuel, though that would be a bonus, it would be to allow AWACS aircraft to be carried that can greatly extend the range of sight of a Russian suface group and also add radar detection of threats to sea surface level out to beyond the horizon... meaning much earlier warning of threats and targets, which makes dealing with those threats and targets much much easier.

Thats completly true, but if non of the aircraft require cats i dont think they Will install it on the K. If they would i think they wont be ready on time.
I think that the K Will be ready in 2020 or so.

They developed a catapult system for the Kuznetsov sister ship the Uylanov (spelling) so I don't see why they could not fit such a system to the K during its refit.

I suspect it would be an EM system as steam cats have problems with icing in cold areas and why bother making steam cats when EM is maturing technology... it would be like making a biplane for the carrier as an AWACS aircraft.

If steam cats were already mature operational equipment in the Russian navy then it might make sense, but it isn't, so it doesn't... if they are going to learn to use a new cat system they might as well learn to use EM cats rather than steam ones.

The benefit would be to allow the K to carry much more capable longer range AEW and AWACS like aircraft like the Yak-44 to greatly improve surveillance range of the fleet without needing to operate too close to the fleet and give away its position.

Air power would be better coordinated and it would be much easier to hunt subs and enemy surface ships as well as detect targets and threats at longer ranges...

Having a Navy without aircraft carriers would be like having an Army with no Air Force. Having a carrier with no AWACS would be like having an Air Force with no AWACS aircraft.

BTW if they were going to replace the propulsion then adding Cats wouldn't be that big of a job to do at the same time.

BTW adding cats could allow the Mig-29Ks to operate from the carriers at max loads with extra fuel and heavy ordinance payloads much more safely.

In the future it could allow Naval PAK FA to operate with an external Brahmos II...

It would be awesome if they install catapults on the K.
And it would be much more effective if they have mig 29 with full payload.

But i think it takes a time to make the yak 44 it would be a whole new project.

Please tell me if i am wrong about the yak.

Flyingdutchman wrote:Requires the PAK FA a catapult to be launched?

No .Not really . Look at it this way . The Indian Navy's Gorshkov AC will have a STOBAR launch facility . However, the IN will include the naval variant of the FGFA on the Gorshkov . Why ? Naval FGFA will have TVC & this will further enhance the N-FGFA’s STOL performance.

Sujoy wrote:

Flyingdutchman wrote:Requires the PAK FA a catapult to be launched?

No .Not really . Look at it this way . The Indian Navy's Gorshkov AC will have a STOBAR launch facility . However, the IN will include the naval variant of the FGFA on the Gorshkov . Why ? Naval FGFA will have TVC & this will further enhance the N-FGFA’s STOL performance.

This means again that they cant launch while fully loaded?

Flyingdutchman wrote:This means again that they cant launch while fully loaded?

Certainly NOT . PAKFA has tremendous TwR .

Even Indian MIG 29Ks are being launched fully loaded from the Groshkov during trials  and the MIG 29K doesn't have TVC .

Then it wouldnt make sense to install cats on the K.
Would it?

Then you have an AEW but i dont think the K needs one.

The purpose of installing cats on the K is to extend its vision and reach by adding AWACS aircraft... namely fixed wing AWACS aircraft in the form of something like a Yak-44M (upgraded).

This aircraft would be able to spend much longer periods in the air and operate much higher than the Ka-31 AWACS helo and carry a much larger and heavier antenna than a UAV could carry.

Of course using an airship might also be a more interesting way of supporting carrier groups with AWACS capability much more efficiently with enormous antenna operating in a range of frequencies...

GarryB wrote:The purpose of installing cats on the K is to extend its vision and reach by adding AWACS aircraft... namely fixed wing AWACS aircraft in the form of something like a Yak-44M (upgraded).

This aircraft would be able to spend much longer periods in the air and operate much higher than the Ka-31 AWACS helo and carry a much larger and heavier antenna than a UAV could carry.

Of course using an airship might also be a more interesting way of supporting carrier groups with AWACS capability much more efficiently with enormous antenna operating in a range of frequencies...

Is this an option for the Russian navy?

And do you know if they are installing cars on the K?

The possibility of unmanned high orbit blimps as information centres is very real.Cheaper than satellites ,easier to hide in the crowd...blade runner revisited.

Is this an option for the Russian navy?

Airships are not good in very high winds, but are much safer than one might think.

Most laymen think of the Hindenberg and remember a big fireball, but in reality a modern airship made of carbon fibre and other very light weight strong composite materials that dont burn well and fill it with helium which also does not burn and it would actually be quite hard to bring such an airship down with conventional weapons.

The main problem is ballast... when you have a transport airship you fly it to where the cargo is and then you have to load the payload on, while dropping the ballast until you have a full payload and fuel to get to the destination.

Now lets imagine you are building a dam in the middle of nowhere... no airfields, no roads... nothing. Build a huge airship that can carry oddly shaped 1,000 ton payloads under it and it can go to where it is made... pick it up vertically and take it directly to the dam and lower it into place. Most other forms of transport you would need to take it to pieces and transport it in thousands of separate loads and then assemble it again.

The main problem with such an airship is that when it takes on the load it has to drop 1,000 tons of ballast, but when it travels to the delivery site it will burn fuel which means it needs some way of taking on more ballast in flight... or it has to reduce its lifting capacity on the way otherwise it will just get lighter and lighter and be unable to land.

In the past the changes in weight were dealt with by releasing hydrogen but in a helium balloon helium is expensive, so some form of fuel cell technology that can turn hydrogen into water and water into hydrogen should offer much more flexibility... hydrogen is very cheap and readily available and lighter than helium so a better lifting gas so could form the core of the lifting gas on board the ship down the centre surrounded by inert nitrogen to prevent fires with helium around the outside which is also inert.

Radar arrays could be part of the structure and could be enormous and make stealth even B-2 stealth ineffective...

The Russians have already sold airships to China for radar monitoring of mountainous terrain and communications relay with unmanned airships operating for months at a time.

And do you know if they are installing cars on the K?

It would be useful to put them into service and get some experience with them. EM cats make more sense as they can be smart cats where the power can be adjusted during the launch to ensure safety.

Often with steam cats someone made a mistake in the calculations and a heavily loaded heavy aircraft didn't get a high enough setting on the cat to get airborne and ended up in the water. An EM cat could self adjust during the launch to ensure safe takeoff speeds without ripping off the front wheel assembly.

I heard they can put a VERY POWERULL radar on rhe mig-29k so it is kinda an awacs plane.

Radar power is good, but very large radar antenna offers better performance and 360 degree views, plus a large plane with longer flight endurance is also a very good thing too.

BTW add a tail facing Antenna array and the PAK FA already has 360 degree radar coverage, but a dedicated AWACS aircraft is still worthwhile IMHO.

So the new carrier Will be K Size but Much more modern.

A question About the K: will the su-33 be replaced by the mig-29k?

The Su-33s are worn out, theMig-29Ks are going to be made...by the time the K gets out of refit and overhaul this time I rather suspect it will be carrying Mig-29Ks with AESA radars and other components from the Mig-35 and a prototype PAK FA-K will at least be in testing.

And the su-25utg?

The Mig-29K has a twin seat version which is a fully operational trainer... ie it has all the capabilities of the Mig-29K with slightly reduced fuel capacity and a second seat that can be used for training... the Su-25UGT becomes a little redundant.

Hey. Guys i heard the K will deploy to the meditteranean end of the year, but i thought it was in refit until 2017.

Can someone make clear to me if its in refit or not.

Thanks



http://inserbia.info/news/2013/08/russian-aircraft-carrier-admiral-kuznetsov-to-be-sent-to-syrias-tartus/

http://thediplomat.com/the-editor/2013/09/04/russias-aircraft-carrier-to-visit-syrian-naval-base/

It was planned to get an upgrade... and a serious one too... planned to take from now to 2017 it would have been fairly extensive, but delaying it is not the end of the world, certainly if it is armed with Poliment/Redut then this delay will allow the new systems to be more mature.

So sooner or later the upgrade Will be done?

Probably later now, but yes... it needs an upgrade.