Indian MMRCA competition: News

ricky123 wrote:

Mike E wrote:

medo wrote:India should also go for RD-33MK engine from MiG-29K in their Tejas plane to have the same engines for Tejas and MiG-29K fighters instead of having many different engines. Tejas have US engines, which could be quickly under sanctions, Eurofighter use its own engines and MiG-29 its own engines. This would be also good for Indian Navy, if Tejas and MiG-29K operating together on carrier, use the same engine. Better for logistics.

Buying Eurofighters from Germany instead of Rafales from France is good idea as this mean disarming of NATO in central Europe. Problem is, that German Eurofighters are less equipped ones without IRST and Germans also don't have targeting pods for them. As I said, India should also buy Eurofighers from Austria and Spain. Maybe even Italy will sell some.

Hmm, that would be great for both India and Russia... The "Mark 2" uses US made engines, but the "Mark 3" will not (it will use their indigenous engine). So either way they won't be using many foreign engines.

only tejas Mk1 is using US engines . MK2 is still in the design phase . so nothing concrete happening there .

PLus i dont think India will go for the migs as india wanted to buy something else rather then the same upgraded Mig29 .

now the subsdised verison of EFT will be very cheap almost %50 of the acutall cost ,in the news they said it would cost around $9 bil for 126 .but we dont really now how much of that is true .. plus another factor is time ... EFT had gone thru all the trials and passed just like Rafael .. Mig35 hasnt and india will be running out of fighters in 2018-2022 period . so i dont think india will go for the migs cuz it will again take few more years to conduct the trials and negotiate the price ..

I've heard that it will use the US engines, but we will have to wait and see...

Why not buy the -35? It gives them the advanced capabilities they want at a lower cost, they probably want it over the other -29 variants.

A) 16 of the jets would be used, which lowers the price.

B) They would be downgraded export models that have worse avionics, which also lowers the price.

C) -35 has proven itself to be reliable, and it would give India commonality.

D) The price has already been decided upon, and trials don't even take years...

Mike E wrote:

ricky123 wrote:

Mike E wrote:

medo wrote:India should also go for RD-33MK engine from MiG-29K in their Tejas plane to have the same engines for Tejas and MiG-29K fighters instead of having many different engines. Tejas have US engines, which could be quickly under sanctions, Eurofighter use its own engines and MiG-29 its own engines. This would be also good for Indian Navy, if Tejas and MiG-29K operating together on carrier, use the same engine. Better for logistics.

Buying Eurofighters from Germany instead of Rafales from France is good idea as this mean disarming of NATO in central Europe. Problem is, that German Eurofighters are less equipped ones without IRST and Germans also don't have targeting pods for them. As I said, India should also buy Eurofighers from Austria and Spain. Maybe even Italy will sell some.

Hmm, that would be great for both India and Russia... The "Mark 2" uses US made engines, but the "Mark 3" will not (it will use their indigenous engine). So either way they won't be using many foreign engines.

only tejas Mk1 is using US engines . MK2 is still in the design phase . so nothing concrete happening there .

PLus i dont think India will go for the migs as india wanted to buy something else rather then the same upgraded Mig29 .

now the subsdised verison of EFT will be very cheap almost %50 of the acutall cost ,in the news they said it would cost around $9 bil for 126 .but we dont really now how much of that is true .. plus another factor is time ... EFT had gone thru all the trials and passed just like Rafael .. Mig35 hasnt and india will be running out of fighters in 2018-2022 period . so i dont think india will go for the migs cuz it will again take few more years to conduct the trials and negotiate the price ..

I've heard that it will use the US engines, but we will have to wait and see...

Why not buy the -35? It gives them the advanced capabilities they want at a lower cost, they probably want it over the other -29 variants.

A) 16 of the jets would be used, which lowers the price.

B) They would be downgraded export models that have worse avionics, which also lowers the price.

C) -35 has proven itself to be reliable, and it would give India commonality.

D) The price has already been decided upon, and trials don't even take years...

Do u really think india would buy downgraded JETs to save money.

ok let me tell you how it works Germany and other countries had agreed to order some number of jets when they started EFT ,but if they reduce the numbers later then they will have to pay a heavy Fine . this is applicable to all the 4 countries involved .

Now if india orders from germany they are saving money from the fines they might have to pay for not ordering the EFT , now that is true for UK and Italy also cuz both of them are ordering F35 , so if they get indian contract they save money ,

They are providing %100 TOT also . They say they will use thier own production lines so that india could get the First 18 jets faster .
So this offer is very tempting .Cuz rafael has not budged on the price yet ... Rafael got the L1 Status cuz it was cheaper when the life cycle cost were taken into account . but now the EFT is much more cheaper . They Both had qualified for the Tender after the trails which took 2 years .the only thing was the price to decide the Deal .. so here i think Germany has really played its cards well .


Now for the Mig-35 IAF will have to Test it again .and compare it with Rafael and EFT and see if it on PAR with those .
Now i am not sure which Engines Mig35 uses . but it seems if IAF goes for EFT they are willing to help with the engines for Tejas also .

maybe someone here can explain it better

Engines are only one part of a jet, and the used engine has and would work fine. If anything they'd be worried about sanctions in the future and a lack of engineers for the engines in India.

In all honesty, that doesn't have anything to do with India...

Yes, it is good for them, but is it for India? - Nope.

100 bucks says that Germany is only proposing this deal to punish France for the Mistral.

True, but have they will probably want to test the EF again as well. EFT and Rafale have somewhat different roles than the MiG. They are both closer to "air-superiority" aircraft, while the MiG is more multi-role, which is what India needs. India already has advanced air-to-air capability in their Flankers.

MiG-35 is not an option... they are replacing Mirage 2000s with these "cheap" stopgap medium fighters...

If only Gripen had a Swedish Engine...

GarryB wrote:MiG-35 is not an option... they are replacing Mirage 2000s with these "cheap" stopgap medium fighters...

If only Gripen had a Swedish Engine...

I don't know, if India is interested in Gripen as their Tejas is in the same class and have similar capabilities and the same engines.

GarryB wrote:MiG-35 is not an option... they are replacing Mirage 2000s with these "cheap" stopgap medium fighters...

If only Gripen had a Swedish Engine...

MiG-35 could "replace" the Rafale could not it?

Ignore the labels... what I am saying is that a Russian plane can't replace the one non Russian plane in the fighter fleet.

Most countries don't need ten different fighters in their inventory... most fighters are about ego or supporting multiple supply sources.

For Russia it needs MiG-35 because all its fighters don't need to be huge heavy long range aircraft and keeping more than one fighter design bureau keeps competition alive... the MiG-35 is a very good aircraft... because MiG really just had to try harder...

GarryB wrote:Ignore the labels... what I am saying is that a Russian plane can't replace the one non Russian plane in the fighter fleet.

Most countries don't need ten different fighters in their inventory... most fighters are about ego or supporting multiple supply sources.

For Russia it needs MiG-35 because all its fighters don't need to be huge heavy long range aircraft and keeping more than one fighter design bureau keeps competition alive... the MiG-35 is a very good aircraft... because MiG really just had to try harder...

I got ya'...

MiG-35 could replace Rafale for India and could have sense for them. It could replace aging MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 fighters as well as aging MiG-27 and Jaguar attack planes. Also MiG-35 will have a lot in common with naval MiG-29K, what is good for logistics. But India decide not to have whole fleet of planes from Russia. They upgrade their MiG-29 to UPG standard and with new western fighter they will replace mostly MiG-27 and Jaguar fleet as well as Mirage 2000. MiG-21 should be replaced by Tejas.

Some more news on this subject... 

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/11371/MMRCA_Delay_Raise_Hopes_For_Rosoboronexport__Eurofighter#.VE3X9Ce9KSM

This whole deal seems shaky to me... One minute India is sure about the Rafale, the next they are looking at Russian and European options... The added issues with the EFT and now the MKI only make this situation more confusing! To be honest, I'm not sure that India will be going the MiG/Sukhoi route just because this MMRCA project has been filled with foreign competitors. They want something other than the exact model that they already have (what it seems like) and 
Russia isn't offering anything new... Maybe they should buy a lesser number of Rafale's along with Sukhoi/MiG's.

The biggest mistake they done to me was buying the Rafale but I consider it too late to change mind.

Russia isn't offering anything new... Maybe they should buy a lesser number of Rafale's along with Sukhoi/MiG's.

The MiG-35 is nothing they have ever had before... it is like comparing an F-16A with an F-16 block 50.

Th MiG-35 can pretty much do anything the Rafale can do, or can be given an upgrade to do so if it was really that important, but India have made it clear, they don't want another Russian aircraft.

The irony is that one of the reasons for diversifying sources is for improved reliability, yet as France has shown with the Mistral class they are clearly less reliable than the Russians.

Their choice.

All this talk of alternatives is BS, they wont stop the contract now... unless France triples the price and tries for 33 billion.

Even at 22 billion, we are talking about 174.6 million per aircraft... even their new FFGA wont cost that much.

GarryB wrote:

Russia isn't offering anything new... Maybe they should buy a lesser number of Rafale's along with Sukhoi/MiG's.

The MiG-35 is nothing they have ever had before... it is like comparing an F-16A with an F-16 block 50.

Th MiG-35 can pretty much do anything the Rafale can do, or can be given an upgrade to do so if it was really that important, but India have made it clear, they don't want another Russian aircraft.

The irony is that one of the reasons for diversifying sources is for improved reliability, yet as France has shown with the Mistral class they are clearly less reliable than the Russians.

Their choice.

All this talk of alternatives is BS, they wont stop the contract now... unless France triples the price and tries for 33 billion.

Even at 22 billion, we are talking about 174.6 million per aircraft... even their new FFGA wont cost that much.

I mean something different to what they've offered before. Maybe, now that the -35's problems have been worked out, India will take a closer look at them.

It is a great aircraft, and I don't doubt its abilities...

True, it really doesn't make any sense... Now India has put "a lot" of their eggs into one unstable basket, that would be France.

Mike E wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Russia isn't offering anything new... Maybe they should buy a lesser number of Rafale's along with Sukhoi/MiG's.

The MiG-35 is nothing they have ever had before... it is like comparing an F-16A with an F-16 block 50.

Th MiG-35 can pretty much do anything the Rafale can do, or can be given an upgrade to do so if it was really that important, but India have made it clear, they don't want another Russian aircraft.

The irony is that one of the reasons for diversifying sources is for improved reliability, yet as France has shown with the Mistral class they are clearly less reliable than the Russians.

Their choice.

All this talk of alternatives is BS, they wont stop the contract now... unless France triples the price and tries for 33 billion.

Even at 22 billion, we are talking about 174.6 million per aircraft... even their new FFGA wont cost that much.

I mean something different to what they've offered before. Maybe, now that the -35's problems have been worked out, India will take a closer look at them.

It is a great aircraft, and I don't doubt its abilities...

True, it really doesn't make any sense... Now India has put "a lot" of their eggs into one unstable basket, that would be France.

And I say, pray tell, what were MiG-35's issues?  Last I checked, there wasn't any and India was just playing hardball and not wanting another Russian jet.  MiG-35's only downfall is that it isn't in main production, but it isn't in main production cause no one is even purchasing it, when its AESA radar has been developed for quite some time now.

India has a past history of sanctions being placed on them, so whatever moves of previous government was purely to pucker up to the west.  But things are starting to turn another view thanks to the fact that Modi isn't an idiot.  Technically, Su-35 wasn't even considered even though it would have blown the competition out of the water.  And also, technically, with having MiG-29K's, and UBT's in service, having another MiG would make more sense logistically as well, and would have been cheaper overall.  But the reason why this is being looked at again, is because of new government.

Edit: Oh sorry, Maybe Zhuk-A radar wasn't ready as the one tested in MMRCA was only around 680 T/R modules while the current one by Phazotron is around 1000 T/R modules.

sepheronx wrote:

Mike E wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Russia isn't offering anything new... Maybe they should buy a lesser number of Rafale's along with Sukhoi/MiG's.

The MiG-35 is nothing they have ever had before... it is like comparing an F-16A with an F-16 block 50.

Th MiG-35 can pretty much do anything the Rafale can do, or can be given an upgrade to do so if it was really that important, but India have made it clear, they don't want another Russian aircraft.

The irony is that one of the reasons for diversifying sources is for improved reliability, yet as France has shown with the Mistral class they are clearly less reliable than the Russians.

Their choice.

All this talk of alternatives is BS, they wont stop the contract now... unless France triples the price and tries for 33 billion.

Even at 22 billion, we are talking about 174.6 million per aircraft... even their new FFGA wont cost that much.

I mean something different to what they've offered before. Maybe, now that the -35's problems have been worked out, India will take a closer look at them.

It is a great aircraft, and I don't doubt its abilities...

True, it really doesn't make any sense... Now India has put "a lot" of their eggs into one unstable basket, that would be France.

And I say, pray tell, what were MiG-35's issues?  Last I checked, there wasn't any and India was just playing hardball and not wanting another Russian jet.  MiG-35's only downfall is that it isn't in main production, but it isn't in main production cause no one is even purchasing it, when its AESA radar has been developed for quite some time now.

India has a past history of sanctions being placed on them, so whatever moves of previous government was purely to pucker up to the west.  But things are starting to turn another view thanks to the fact that Modi isn't an idiot.  Technically, Su-35 wasn't even considered even though it would have blown the competition out of the water.  And also, technically, with having MiG-29K's, and UBT's in service, having another MiG would make more sense logistically as well, and would have been cheaper overall.  But the reason why this is being looked at again, is because of new government.

Didn't it have problems during and soon after development and the production of prototypes? It could just be a case of bad-source-syndrome of my part.... This could be its first production order... Though, like GarryB said, they have already invested a lot into the Rafale and probably won't switch platforms.

India knows that... Having more of the same or similar is better logistically, but that is what they are tying to avoid IMHO. They appear to want Western jets, probably due to their attempt of moving the eggs from one basket to many baskets or something like that.

Mike E wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Mike E wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Russia isn't offering anything new... Maybe they should buy a lesser number of Rafale's along with Sukhoi/MiG's.

The MiG-35 is nothing they have ever had before... it is like comparing an F-16A with an F-16 block 50.

Th MiG-35 can pretty much do anything the Rafale can do, or can be given an upgrade to do so if it was really that important, but India have made it clear, they don't want another Russian aircraft.

The irony is that one of the reasons for diversifying sources is for improved reliability, yet as France has shown with the Mistral class they are clearly less reliable than the Russians.

Their choice.

All this talk of alternatives is BS, they wont stop the contract now... unless France triples the price and tries for 33 billion.

Even at 22 billion, we are talking about 174.6 million per aircraft... even their new FFGA wont cost that much.

I mean something different to what they've offered before. Maybe, now that the -35's problems have been worked out, India will take a closer look at them.

It is a great aircraft, and I don't doubt its abilities...

True, it really doesn't make any sense... Now India has put "a lot" of their eggs into one unstable basket, that would be France.

And I say, pray tell, what were MiG-35's issues?  Last I checked, there wasn't any and India was just playing hardball and not wanting another Russian jet.  MiG-35's only downfall is that it isn't in main production, but it isn't in main production cause no one is even purchasing it, when its AESA radar has been developed for quite some time now.

India has a past history of sanctions being placed on them, so whatever moves of previous government was purely to pucker up to the west.  But things are starting to turn another view thanks to the fact that Modi isn't an idiot.  Technically, Su-35 wasn't even considered even though it would have blown the competition out of the water.  And also, technically, with having MiG-29K's, and UBT's in service, having another MiG would make more sense logistically as well, and would have been cheaper overall.  But the reason why this is being looked at again, is because of new government.

Didn't it have problems during and soon after development and the production of prototypes? It could just be a case of bad-source-syndrome of my part.... This could be its first production order... Though, like GarryB said, they have already invested a lot into the Rafale and probably won't switch platforms.

India knows that... Having more of the same or similar is better logistically, but that is what they are tying to avoid IMHO. They appear to want Western jets, probably due to their attempt of moving the eggs from one basket to many baskets or something like that.

Maybe. It seems it has more to do with the fact that they always had a mix of British/French and Russian technology for the airforce (Hawks for trainers, Mirage's for jets and MiG's/Sukhois). Previous government wanted the same thing this time, instead, replace Mirage's and MiG's with Rafale's. Instead, this time, it seems to have backfired as the French are getting quite testy with the prices being set. MiG-35's problem wasn't the jet itself, but the concept behind the fact that it was actually a MiG-29M2 with an earlier variant of the Phazotron Zhuk-A radar of around 600+ T/R modules. But the newer one is already...ready, and will be placed on Ka-52K helicopters for the Mistral. Rafale won because it would have been a true successor of the Mirage and a good replacement of it, and I agree with their assessment, but not at the prices that they want for it. In this case, India would get a lot more MiG-35's from it, modern technology comparable to that of the west, and have a lot of already done localization of parts.

Maybe, now that the -35's problems have been worked out, India will take a closer look at them.

What problems?

The Indian MiG-35 would have been ready just as quickly as the Rafale would have been.

remember the Russians only produce 16 planes and the rest are made in India for the MMRCA competition.

MiG-35's only downfall is that it isn't in main production, but it isn't in main production cause no one is even purchasing it, when its AESA radar has been developed for quite some time now.

I rather suspect the Russian AF MiG-35 will have slightly different specs to the aircraft offered to India... 3-4 extra years of development and improvement will likely make the in service MiG-35 even better.

Didn't it have problems during and soon after development and the production of prototypes? It could just be a case of bad-source-syndrome of my part.... This could be its first production order... Though, like GarryB said, they have already invested a lot into the Rafale and probably won't switch platforms.

AFAIK there were no problems with the MiG-35... in fact the only bad thing I read was that the Indians were miffed that MiG didn't send a 35 to their airshow/arms show thingy.

They appear to want Western jets, probably due to their attempt of moving the eggs from one basket to many baskets or something like that.

I suspect two different underlying reasons... one is that they have a group in the air force that just prefers western aircraft and generally the british way of doing things... tradition is strong in most militaries, and the other is an attempt at diversifying systems and weapons... ie get a hold of the newest Russian and French weapon systems.

http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/rafale-in-storm-clouds-parrikar-says-iaf-can-make-do-with-sukhoi-30s-114123100706_1.html

For the first time since January 31, 2012, when the French Rafale fighter was chosen as the future medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF), it has been officially admitted that there are serious problems in negotiating the purchase with the French vendor, Dassault.

Speaking to the media on Tuesday evening, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said there were “complications” in the negotiations, already on for almost three years, with the French side reluctant to meet commitments that IAF had specified in the tender. Parrikar did not reveal details.

Business Standard had reported on Dassault’s unwillingness to assume responsibility for the production of Rafales by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which the tender mandated. HAL is to build 108 Rafales in India with technology transferred from Dassault and its sub-vendors.

Ominously for Dassault, Parrikar said additional Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, which HAL builds in Nashik, were adequate for the IAF in case it was decided not to procure the Rafale.

There is a good chance, that India buy additional Su-30MKI instead of Rafales and increase their number to around 500 planes.

3 years has passed since Rafale won the competition and yet there is no sign of any contract being singed.

More Su-30 would be a worthy addition to India for half a price and Russia wold benefit too. No need to drag along unreliable partner.

Viktor wrote:3 years has passed since Rafale won the competition and yet there is no sign of any contract being singed.

More Su-30 would be a worthy addition to India for half a price and Russia wold benefit too. No need to drag along unreliable partner.

I never understood why they went with Rafale even though they have Su-30's. Both meet the same market, multipurpose. Only difference is that one is a heavier and longer range aircraft (Su-30MKI) over the other. In the end though, they would save ridiculous amounts of money on procurement and maintenance with just going with one aircraft instead. As well, upgrading the entire airforce with Russian AESA radar and some Low observable components like RAM coatings and EW equipment would make it also cheaper in the future.

sepheronx wrote:

Viktor wrote:3 years has passed since Rafale won the competition and yet there is no sign of any contract being singed.

More Su-30 would be a worthy addition to India for half a price and Russia wold benefit too. No need to drag along unreliable partner.

I never understood why they went with Rafale even though they have Su-30's.  Both meet the same market, multipurpose.  Only difference is that one is a heavier and longer range aircraft (Su-30MKI) over the other.  In the end though, they would save ridiculous amounts of money on procurement and maintenance with just going with one aircraft instead.  As well, upgrading the entire airforce with Russian AESA radar and some Low observable components like RAM coatings and EW equipment would make it also cheaper in the future.

Completely agree. Why buy something that is 2-3 times more expensier while you have much cheaper and much much better option from reliable and trustworthy ally.

I suspect politics.

When they split the fighter mafia between the MiG-29 and the Mirage 2000 both sides were happy.

If they went to an all Russian air force the pilots used to flying western aircraft will get upset.

Of course product diversity means good relations with east and west and a more serious challenge for enemies... a jamming system that works against one wont necessarily work against the other.

they compliment each other.

Which makes sense but not when a medium fighter is costing more than the new 5th gen fighter is likely to cost...

You have to admit... those frenchies have balls to demand such a high price...

GarryB wrote:
Which makes sense but not when a medium fighter is costing more than the new 5th gen fighter is likely to cost...

You have to admit... those frenchies have balls to demand such a high price...

between this and the mistral fckup(should be a serious loss of confidence to anyone with a brain cell between their eyes), i think the indians should have enough apprehensions to cancel the contract signing- hopefully. or better yet, keep yanking dassault's chain well into 2020 when they formally decline and go for more PAK-FA/Su-30mkis, or even better a new and improved Mig-35- . improved by funds from selling the russian half of a mistral hulk plus penalties.

collegeboy16 wrote:

GarryB wrote:
Which makes sense but not when a medium fighter is costing more than the new 5th gen fighter is likely to cost...

You have to admit... those frenchies have balls to demand such a high price...

between this and the mistral fckup(should be a serious loss of confidence to anyone with a brain cell between their eyes), i think the indians should have enough apprehensions to cancel the contract signing- hopefully. or better yet, keep yanking dassault's chain well into 2020 when they formally decline and go for more PAK-FA/Su-30mkis, or even better a new and improved Mig-35- . improved by funds from selling the russian half of a mistral hulk plus penalties.

They're not going to cancel it cause they have to many "Serdyukovs" preventing that, but yea they might try to delay it, although i doubt they'll have much of a price drop.

To be honest, India doesn't need Rafale fighters. After long time of development, they manage to bring Tejas fighter in production. The best option for them is to buy additional heavy Su-30MKI fighters instead of Rafale fighters and the rest should be domestic Tejas light fighters, which is practically western fighter as it have US engine and Israeli and other western electronics.