Republic of Novorossiya

Its difficult to decide which solution. Novorossiya obviously has its benefits.

The downside is:-
1)Loss of Kiev.
2)Many Russian speakers/ Russia-leaners are left in the Ukrainian Nazi cesspool
3) Loss of the strategic aspect of the Carpathians.
4)Loss of substantial land  and more reasonable people to the Nazi loons.
5) No control whatsoever over the West of the Ukraine.
6)Potential NATO militarisation even ABMs in the West.
7)The Ukrainian Nazis get a benefit from their ethnic cleansing in the Great Patriotic War, and their terrorist acts more recently.
8)Maybe ethnic cleansing atrocities for peope living in the "wrong" area.

Perhaps another big option is federalisation of the Ukraine. With different broadly/wholly autonomous republics. All states in the federation have to respect minorities. The S and East could be effectively managed from Moscow. Part would be "neutral" ie neither Lvov-leaning or governed direct from Moscow. Moscow retains the right to have bases in the Carpathians. But otherwise the West Ukrainians can trade with the EU etc.

Perhaps let the Nationalist Ukr. scum liase with Brussels, on the condition the do not join NATO. Their defence could be jtly guaranteed from the Federal Ukraine and Moscow.

In other words, in one way, like Greenland and Denmark which are part of one overall country. In another, a little like the EU and Switzerland. 

Novorossiya currently has a lot of power over the 45m Ukraine. Even more, with a Russian gun pointed at it. Does it make sense to give up winnable neutral areas that readily?

But overall, Id like to see the S and East effectively join  with Russia, just adding Kiev and a few bits. And a buffer zone in the West, vs Nato.

Its not easy to do by negotiation. Maybe a little "gentle pressure" is needed? eg military protection against political persection against the Russian speakers.

xeno wrote:Very interesting. Any details or analysis article(map) on the internet?

Plenty . Here are a few links :

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/interview/if-there-is-a-referendum-in-balochistan-people-will-vote-for-independence/article5767487.ece

http://indianexpress.com/article/world/americas/us-says-it-does-not-support-independence-for-balochistan/

The North West Frontier Province ( in Pakistan) is even more interesting .

The British had signed a deal with the Afghans under which NWFP was "leased" to British India . The duration of this "lease" was for 100 years .Now Afghanistan wants NWFP back as the timeline for the lease has elapsed and Pakistan won't give it up .

http://blogs.aljazeera.com/blog/asia/afghan-poll-candidates-debate-foreign-policy

Then there is the issue with Sindh demanding independence from Pakistan .

Firebird wrote:Its difficult to decide which solution. Novorossiya obviously has its benefits.

The downside is:-
1)Loss of Kiev.
2)Many Russian speakers/ Russia-leaners are left in the Ukrainian Nazi cesspool
3) Loss of the strategic aspect of the Carpathians.
4)Loss of substantial land  and more reasonable people to the Nazi loons.
5) No control whatsoever over the West of the Ukraine.
6)Potential NATO militarisation even ABMs in the West.
7)The Ukrainian Nazis get a benefit from their ethnic cleansing in the Great Patriotic War, and their terrorist acts more recently.
8)Maybe ethnic cleansing atrocities for peope living in the "wrong" area.

Yep, completely agree, but really - we lost all that already in 1991.

This is just a proposal to salvage what's left, what we can

Perhaps another big option is federalisation of the Ukraine. With different broadly/wholly autonomous republics. All states in the federation have to respect minorities. The S and East could be effectively managed from Moscow. Part would be "neutral" ie neither Lvov-leaning or governed direct from Moscow. Moscow retains the right to have bases in the Carpathians. But otherwise the West Ukrainians can trade with the EU etc.

Perhaps let the Nationalist Ukr. scum liase with Brussels, on the condition the do not join NATO. Their defence could be jtly guaranteed from the Federal Ukraine and Moscow.

In other words, in one way, like Greenland and Denmark which are part of one overall country. In another, a little like the EU and Switzerland. 

Novorossiya currently has a lot of power over the 45m Ukraine. Even more, with a Russian gun pointed at it. Does it make sense to give up winnable neutral areas that readily?

Actually that sounds like not a bad idea. Question is - will the Ukr. Nazis accept it? Will the current Kiev government even?
I think no on both counts, the Ukr. nationalists in particular have shown that they are very determined and will go to any length to bring the course of the country under their thumb, and are willing to crush dissent. They are also fixated on the idea of building a homogenous Ukrainian nation; greater Russian cultural influence will not be acceptable for them.

I think the majority of the Ukraine's population, even in the West - would find the idea of federalization acceptable but there are too many radical elements about, and now they are armed too. So it will be pretty difficult to pull it off even if the EU and Russia agree on it.

But overall, Id like to see the S and East effectively join  with Russia, just adding Kiev and a few bits. And a buffer zone in the West, vs Nato.

Its not easy to do by negotiation. Maybe a little "gentle pressure" is needed? eg military protection against political persection against the Russian speakers.

IMO, direct annexation is the least favorable option. The advantages are that it would clearly circumvent the potential issue of non-recognition by this or that country, provides a guarantee of Moscow's control and includes these territories into the Russian nation, leads to a larger Russian population & territory, as well as direct economic benefits from taxes and industries.

However, it carries the largest international penalties for Russia, sets very dangerous precedents and would complicate the enticement of other Ukrainian regions down the line, as well as closer integration with Russian neighbors except through arm-twisting when overwhelming leverage is present.
I think we learnt from the USSR that Cold Wars, alarming neighbours and so on isn't a good idea. Neither is making your country too heterogeneous and including too many regions where separatist movements can arise.

Well here's the flag I made. Sorta like a mix between the Russian and the SSR one.

Might be worth it to come up with some policies, economic development plans, military composition & equipment, international relations priorities, etc...

Thank you Sujoy,
First time to know about these things...

flamming_python wrote:

Well here's the flag I made. Sorta like a mix between the Russian and the SSR one.

Might be worth it to come up with some policies, economic development plans, military composition & equipment, international relations priorities, etc...

I think you should add white since all Slavic nations like Czech,Yugoslavia,Serbia,Russia,Slovakia,Slovenia and Crotia use white (peace) blue (freedom) and red (valor), except ukraine which was indoctrinated to believe they have a very own ethnicity while they are actually russian let alone believe that Ukraine was a country all along existent before kiewer Rus, like some stupid ukrainian nationalists try to rewrite slavic history.

Ukraine is the russian word for people who lived at the rim/boarder to europe.
U means in russian At or nearby and Krain means boarder or rim which litteraly means At-rim living people, not an ethnicity not a seperate country it was just made up during bolshewik revolution and such nonsense as the holodomor of "ukrainians" was invented while there is no such ethnicity and therefore not a genocide against ukrainians but russians by bolshewik.

Found something better   

http://arcktick.livejournal.com/14341.html
arcktick.livejournal.com/2014/03/05/







Alllriiiighttt, now this is what I'm talkin' about!

There is a discussion going on right now. Basically the same coat of arms, but with a 2-headed Berkut golden eagle rather than a standard eagle, and with different symbols in its claws, say an anchor and a hammer
http://antifashist.com/forum/stat-discus/12140-lr.html

This flag meanwhile can be used for the Novorussian fleet

Looks good.

It will have been nice to see Russia to join with Ukraine like in soviet times but with democracy but realistically
speaking that will never happen there is too much hate in the west.. and US-Poland and Lithuania have done everything possible to sabotage any possible reconciliation of Russia with Ukraine. The only way Russia can pull former soviet republics back is with a very solid and strong economy..and massive modernization of their infrastructure at least all major Russian cities from Moscow to the west ,Sochi style.

Aside of economy and modernization of the country , things like a manned mission to the moon and mars before the west will truly raise Russia popularity among former Soviet republics and  to seriously consider returning against with a new soviet union like but under a democracy and open country.  

When Yuri gagarin for example became first man in space.. there was not a single president in the planet that wasnt impressed about Russia and talking about their technological success. And he was received like holywood star in every Nation. SO Russia needs to pull another Sochi event ..but this time in Space.. travel to the moon (or mars)  without holywood fake landing.. and let the world to know that Russia is the most advanced Nation in the world ,with better future and anyone can fulfill all their dreams in Russia.

Economy and investors.. is something 100% connected with people Perception. Nothing will be more positive for Russia to travel with a manned mission to the moon or mars.

This is what we need to move towards   
Glad to see some recognition is dawning amongst the peoples of the Ukrainian south-east that an independent, united south-eastern republic will serve them and their interests better than declaring a bunch of separate independent republics, or staying as republics in a federal Ukraine, or being annexed into Russia piecemeal, bit by bit.

IMO this is the best variant of all and is something that most south-east Ukrainians can get behind; without the insecurity of being lone, separate, unrecognized republics or part of a federal Ukraine with a power-hungry repressive government. Meanwhile those south-east Ukrainians who don't want to join Russia will get to keep their independence but in a country that isn't a failed state; but actually has real perspectives, and is too large and populous to simply stay unrecognized even by the EU & US.

flamming_python wrote:

Well here's the flag I made. Sorta like a mix between the Russian and the SSR one.

Might be worth it to come up with some policies, economic development plans, military composition & equipment, international relations priorities, etc...

That is the flag of Soviet Armenia.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/su-am.html

The other one with the coat of arms looks better.

TheArmenian wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Well here's the flag I made. Sorta like a mix between the Russian and the SSR one.

Might be worth it to come up with some policies, economic development plans, military composition & equipment, international relations priorities, etc...

That is the flag of Soviet Armenia.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/su-am.html

The other one with the coat of arms looks better.

LOL

Well I made it myself  
Should have known that it would be used for something already.

Russia does not have to step in but just support a proxy war , heavily arming the local militsia .. so they can arest heavy armor from Ukranian army.
Even they can impose a NO FLY zone over SEast Ukraine.
At the moment the dynamic in the south and harkov is not high because of fear .. people arent shure thw Russia will help one way or another.

Putin has to sacrifies some of the luxary life of the people they have money .. (sanctions etc) to save his own people.

He cannot do both
=============
in the mean time .. some Russian sufer .. while some in Moscow count the plus and minus in dolars and market bonds..

violence towards arrested Pavel Gubarev in kiev's court - two thugs are trying to tear off him the St George ribbon.

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/beitrag/video/2112228/Russische-Geopolitik-auf-der-Krim#/beitrag/video/2112228/Russische-Geopolitik-auf-der-Krim

Premier Zakharchenko Leads in Donetsk People's Republic's Elections With 81%: Exit Polls

Good. New presidents in Donetsk and Lugansk will be also commanders in chief of their armed forces. From president down, there will be unified chain of command and unified commanding structure will make Novorussian army more effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6thogMUzM9o

Inauguration of the head of DNR Zaharchenko.

LPR intends to create internal bank in month
18:32 November 21, 2014 Interfax

The administration of the self-proclaimed Lugansk People's Republic (LPR) plans to create its own internal banking system.

Igor Plotnitsky, the head of the LPR, addressed the situation with the payment of pensions of wages in the Friday meeting of the Council of Ministers. "We currently cannot make all payments in full. We have made a decision to create an internal bank with support from the Russian Federation. In a month, it will be much easier to make payments," he said.

Problems will be resolved in every specific district, he said. "It's a normal process. The situation is gradually improving. The administration of the republic has full information. Everything is being done to help people," Plotnitsky said.

"Even in the past week, the administration of the republic did a lot for the decentralization of the administration. No one wants to have two administrations - military and civilian - in the same hands. There will be no Cossack republics," he said.

"We have survived the most difficult time, when we didn't have anything, water, power, and communications. Now they are trying to pressure us economically. But the question is that, like Poroshenko said, we have been 'cut off,' which means we have received what we wanted, our independence. Let's begin resolving problems, not just voice them. We, for our part, will do all we can to help all districts of the LPR in a centralized way," Plotnitsky said.

Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - http://rbth.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/lpr_intends_to_create_internal_bank_in_month_41592.html)

Donetsk Republic authorities establish Pension Fund
November 21, 23:31 UTC+3

DONETSK, November 21. /TASS/. The government of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) has decided to establish a Pension Fund, the DPR press center reported Friday.

“The decision was made in connection with cessation of operations by the Pension Fund of Ukraine on the DPR territory,” the report said. Galina Sagaidakova was appointed acting chairwoman of the Pension Fund.

Last week, Poroshenko signed a decree that puts into force the decision of the Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council of November 4 “On urgent measures to stabilize the social and economic situation in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.”

The decree in particular envisions that the Verkhovna Rada (parliament) will consider the bill on invalidation of the law “On a special procedure of local self-rule in separate districts of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions” adopted in September.

Poroshenko's decree touches upon the operation of the social and economic structures of Donbass (Donetsk and Lugansk regions): in particular, it envisions that pensions will no longer be paid to residents of the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Lugansk People’s republics. The republic’s authorities say the decree aimed at economic suffocation of Donbass is out of line with Ukraine’s constitution.

The document also contains a number of other instructions to various Ukrainian ministries and departments, which relate to the operation of the social and economic structures of Donbass.

Fierce clashes between troops loyal to Kiev and local militias in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions during Kiev’s military operation, conducted since mid-April, to regain control over the breakaway southeastern territories, which call themselves the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s republics, have killed over 4,000 people.

The parties to the Ukrainian conflict agreed on a ceasefire at talks mediated by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) on September 5 in Belarusian capital Minsk two days after Russian President Vladimir Putin proposed his plan to settle the situation in the east of Ukraine.

The ceasefire took effect the same day but has reportedly occasionally been violated.

Ukraine’s parliament on September 16 granted a special self-rule status to certain districts in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions for three years.

The Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine comprising representatives of Ukraine, Russia and the OSCE adopted a memorandum on September 19 in Minsk, which outlined the parameters for the implementation of commitments on the ceasefire in Ukraine laid down in the Minsk Protocol of September 5.

The nine-point document in particular stipulates a ban on the use of all armaments and withdrawal of weapons with the calibers of over 100 millimeters to a distance of 15 kilometers from the contact line from each side. The OSCE was tasked with controlling the implementation of memorandum provisions.

Donetsk Republic to send delegation to Venezuela, Cuba for recognition talks

http://novorossia.su/ru/node/15850

Как сообщает «ЛуганскИнформЦентр» со ссылкой на заявление главы ЛНР Игоря Плотницкого, подписание контрактов с российскими импортёрами позволит восстановить на луганской фабрике «Глория Джинс» до 80% рабочих мест от довоенного уровня.

http://novorossia.su/ru/node/15395

Сегодня на брифинге министр инфраструктуры, транспорта и связи ЛНР Александр Чумаченко анонсировал начало работы автосборочного завода в Красном Луче.

«Мы заключили договор с российской стороной. Согласно договору, основная сборка автобусов будет производиться в Красном Луче», — заявил Чумаченко.

В то же время, согласно словам министра, окончательная сборка автобусов будет производиться в Донецке Ростовской области, что позволит получать документы на готовые автобусы российского образца.

http://novorossia.su/ru/node/15685

Аграрии Донецкой Народной Республики стараются закрыть потребность в мясе и других продуктах животноводства своими силами. Об этом, как сообщил корреспондент ИА «Новороссия», сегодня заявил и.о. министра агропромышленной политики и продовольствия ДНР Максим Савенко.

По информации главы ведомства, объём реализации на убой скота и птицы в текущем году по состоянию на 3 марта достиг 1871 тонны. В сравнении за аналогичным периодом прошлого года это составляет прирост порядка 109%.

http://novorossia.su/ru/node/15858

Электроснабжение Чернухино восстановят к 14 марта

http://novorossia.su/ru/node/15816

Власти Дебальцево открыли первый после окончания боев детский сад

Some of positive news from Novorussia with renewing of industrial and food production and with normalizing of life in newly liberated area.

So how many have died in Donbass in the last year besides way too many?

The UN has a figure closing in on 6,000 but that is just what the Ukrainian authorities tell them.

The German Intelligence Agency told their Parliament that the actual figure could be as high as 50,000.

Some sources in Donbass state the total to be closer to 45,000.

This week alone I read 6 different articles and viewpoints on it. Unfortunately it is impossible to really know and it is far from being over.

A couple of blogger / analysts have been trying to keep track and calculate the grim reapers score and their figures are close being in the 25-30,000 range.
One of them has the Ukrainian forces losses at in excess of 14,000 and closing in on 15,000.
NAF losses at in excess of 8,000.
Civilian causalities at being in excess of 5,000.

Even the Kiev regime admits that its total losses are nearly 10,000 (around 3,000 MIA). So the 14,000 figure is actually
quite conservative. I would put regime force KIA around 20,000. Judging by the effectiveness of the rebel forces (e.g.
I have not heard of single rebel cauldron) I would say the rebel KIA are around 7,000. Given the conventional nature
of this war and the incessant shelling of civilians by regime forces, that the figure of around 20,000 civilian dead is realistic.
So 45-50,000 total is plausible and is likely to be an underestimate.

The 6,000 civilian figure is what one gets by tracking the few reports of casualties from the web including rebel sources.
The problem is that such reports are partial. They seem to be mostly from the large population centers and the small
villages and towns are not as well covered. I think this is due to lack of internet access and use in these smaller population
centers and the fact that devastation can be more total with less observers around to make reports.

Putin Does Not Comment Possibility of Russia Recognizing Donbass Republics

Russia has not officially recognized Donbass republics' independence or their regional elections, but the Russian Foreign Ministry said it respected the will of the people of Donetsk and Lugansk.

VLADIVOSTOK (Sputnik) – Russian President Vladimir Putin declined to comment on the possibility of Moscow recognizing the self-proclaimed people's republics of Donetsk and Lugansk (DPR and LPR) when the issue was brought up by the host of the "Vesti v Subbotu" (Saturday News) television program.

"I do not want to comment on this right now, because regardless of what I say, it could be counterproductive. We will look at the realities that emerge."

Kiev launched a military operation in Donbass in mid-April, 2014, after local residents refused to recognize the new authorities that came to power after the February overthrow of former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.

On May 11, referendums were held in southeastern Ukraine on the status of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, following which the self-proclaimed DPR and LPR republics were established. On May 24, the self-proclaimed republics signed a treaty of association into Novorossiya, a union of the people's republics.

DPR and LPR held elections of regional heads and legislative bodies on November 2. The elections were not recognized either by Kiev or its Western allies.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150418/1021063098.html#ixzz3XfJs1Gy7

If it was 10k or 20k Novorossiyans killed (civillians and Resistance army) then there is a major issue for Putin looming.

The death statistics cant be kept quiet forever. Ultimately Russia would have to secure the blood price not the gold price as compensation, to quote Game of Thrones. Otherwise he could find himself history as  leader.

My guess is that people confuse injuries, AWOLs and other disappearances with deaths.

Thankfully the Nazis/Lvov shit got a good beating. But sadly not enough so far.

I'm just as concerned about the terrorists that are orchestating it from abroad. Like the ones sending into Lvov cargo planes with Javelins etc.