Lots of talk of the PAK FA having two cannon... I have suspected this might be an error and that they might have just fitted a twin barrel 30mm cannon instead of a single barrel weapon to boost rate of fire?
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74 posters
PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
GarryB- Posts : 40710
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Join date : 2010-03-30
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- Post n°126
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
Perhaps they want to test the gun but don't want to have to deal with the issues of vibration on the optics or have to clean them just yet?
Lots of talk of the PAK FA having two cannon... I have suspected this might be an error and that they might have just fitted a twin barrel 30mm cannon instead of a single barrel weapon to boost rate of fire?
Lots of talk of the PAK FA having two cannon... I have suspected this might be an error and that they might have just fitted a twin barrel 30mm cannon instead of a single barrel weapon to boost rate of fire?
GarryB- Posts : 40710
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- Post n°128
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
DIRCMS turrets or MAWS balls...
(Directed IR Countermeasures system... ie laser turrets used to dazzle the IR and optical seekers of incoming missiles, or Missile approach warning system sensor balls... ie detect the presence of incoming missiles through the thermal plume of their rocket motors or the friction heating of their noses and the leading edges of their control surfaces... )
(Directed IR Countermeasures system... ie laser turrets used to dazzle the IR and optical seekers of incoming missiles, or Missile approach warning system sensor balls... ie detect the presence of incoming missiles through the thermal plume of their rocket motors or the friction heating of their noses and the leading edges of their control surfaces... )
medo- Posts : 4343
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- Post n°129
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
I would say DIRCM balls. It still have places for MAWS sensors although covered or empty.
mack8- Posts : 1039
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- Post n°130
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
T-50-5 pictures!
http://i-korotchenko.livejournal.com/772847.html
http://i-korotchenko.livejournal.com/772847.html
Rpg type 7v- Posts : 245
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Join date : 2011-05-01
- Post n°131
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
this t-50 is getting less and less stealthy by the day...medo wrote:I would say DIRCM balls. It still have places for MAWS sensors although covered or empty.
quite the opposite of yf-22 ----> f/a-22 process...
Sujoy- Posts : 2426
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Location : India || भारत
- Post n°132
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
There is this song . "If you are happy and you know it , keep it to yourself & let your DAD sleep . "Rpg type 7v wrote:this t-50 is getting less and less stealthy by the day...
quite the opposite of yf-22 ----> f/a-22 process...
The below pictures are of NPO Saturn's Type 30 5-staged HP compressor section. Not stealthy ??
sepheronx- Posts : 8891
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- Post n°133
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
Don't be a dolt. This is a prototype testing specific sensors.Rpg type 7v wrote:this t-50 is getting less and less stealthy by the day...medo wrote:I would say DIRCM balls. It still have places for MAWS sensors although covered or empty.
quite the opposite of yf-22 ----> f/a-22 process...
Last I heard it was the new FLIR but could be DIRCM. T-50-7 (or 6) is supposed to be somewhat different looking as it is supposed to be serial produced model.
GarryB- Posts : 40710
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- Post n°134
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
Hahaha... the purpose of prototypes is to test and integrate systems individually. Later pre series production models are for testing lots of systems working together...
The prototype testing stealth will include all the external elements of the final aircraft but it will not be a flying prototype and it wont have the internal equipment and systems... just the external antenna and things that effect the RCS.
The Stealth prototype may never be revealed in photos... the Mig 1.42 and Mig-1.44 include one stealth and one flying prototype... we have still only seen the flying prototype...
It will be the stealth prototype where the RCS is first tested and then changes introduced to various antenna and sensors to reduce RCS by reshaping and redesign etc etc.
In the mean time the Pak Fa 5th prototype will be testing the systems behind the antenna and sensor balls etc to optimise their effectiveness and later in a serially produced model to integrate it into the avionics suite.
BTW given the choice of being very stealthy (ie low RCS) or DIRCMs I would prefer DIRCMs as DIRCMs will stop FPA Sidewinders... low RCS will have no effect on IIR missiles.
The prototype testing stealth will include all the external elements of the final aircraft but it will not be a flying prototype and it wont have the internal equipment and systems... just the external antenna and things that effect the RCS.
The Stealth prototype may never be revealed in photos... the Mig 1.42 and Mig-1.44 include one stealth and one flying prototype... we have still only seen the flying prototype...
It will be the stealth prototype where the RCS is first tested and then changes introduced to various antenna and sensors to reduce RCS by reshaping and redesign etc etc.
In the mean time the Pak Fa 5th prototype will be testing the systems behind the antenna and sensor balls etc to optimise their effectiveness and later in a serially produced model to integrate it into the avionics suite.
BTW given the choice of being very stealthy (ie low RCS) or DIRCMs I would prefer DIRCMs as DIRCMs will stop FPA Sidewinders... low RCS will have no effect on IIR missiles.
Viktor- Posts : 5796
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- Post n°135
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
Russia renews PAK-FA overtures to South Korea
Vann7- Posts : 5385
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Join date : 2012-05-16
- Post n°136
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
Russia needs to show their final Pak-FA model airframe ,if they want to impress traditional US clients that have the opportunity to buy the F-35. For Sales ,functionality and performance is not enough .. the plane visual appearance needs to be totally next generation and needs to impress.
Usually when Russia sells something to India..India says ok we buy the plane ,but they pick the electronics and avionics of israeli and or an european country. and this needs to change if Russia really wants to more easily sell their stuff.
So Pak-FA as is now.. could be the best plane ever .but always gets negative reviews for not being "stealthy enough". From the Rear. So is kind of Sick , of reading that a million of times everywhere including from so called Experts sites.. Its like Russia do not get it.. how important is the appearance for the western markets in everything they sale. And the offering Pak-FA in what appears to be in an unfinished airframe.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Join date : 2011-12-06
- Post n°137
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
I wouldn't worry terribly about the firmly US camp, they will buy F-35 anyway.
Pragmatic customers have experts look at planes, they are not swayed by "eyeball RCS" experts.
Pragmatic customers have experts look at planes, they are not swayed by "eyeball RCS" experts.
GarryB- Posts : 40710
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- Post n°138
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
If they had a final production airframe ready why would they bother with testing prototypes?Russia needs to show their final Pak-FA model airframe ,if they want to impress traditional US clients that have the opportunity to buy the F-35.
If the US really wants to impress the world it should show a fully operational hypersonic bomber... what they haven't built it yet? Where is their credibility with Algeria?
US clients locked in to buying F-35 are hardly going to consider a Russian aircraft as an alternative.
F-35 will be built... they have signed contracts.
Pulling out now would be very expensive but they would get no aircraft at the end of it.
India is free to choose the maker of the contents of their new aircraft... lots of stuff in the PAK FA will not be cleared for export anyway, so a French or Israeli alternative is often better for India than the downgraded export Russian model.Usually when Russia sells something to India..India says ok we buy the plane ,but they pick the electronics and avionics of israeli and or an european country. and this needs to change if Russia really wants to more easily sell their stuff.
The hidden advantage is that if the Indian aircraft is compromised it reveals less about the Russian Aircraft... and vice versa.
Anyone who complains it is not stealthy enough is an idiot... they are prototypes... used for testing certain parameters and certain systems... photos of the RCS prototype may never be released and you need to see those to make a sensible judgement.So Pak-FA as is now.. could be the best plane ever .but always gets negative reviews for not being "stealthy enough".
IF the L band AESA arrays on fighter planes reveal fully stealth fighters then what is the point in spending billions on making planes stealthy when technology is entering service to make them NOT stealthy?From the Rear. So is kind of Sick , of reading that a million of times everywhere including from so called Experts sites.. Its like Russia do not get it.. how important is the appearance for the western markets in everything they sale. And the offering Pak-FA in what appears to be in an unfinished airframe.
Rpg type 7v- Posts : 245
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- Post n°139
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
because coatings can be made selectivly to be transparent for certain ranges of frequencies ,that was done long ago in F-22...
GJ Flanker- Posts : 38
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- Post n°140
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
Vann7 wrote:
So Pak-FA as is now.. could be the best plane ever .but always gets negative reviews for not being "stealthy enough". From the Rear. So is kind of Sick , of reading that a million of times everywhere including from so called Experts sites.. Its like Russia do not get it.. how important is the appearance for the western markets in everything they sale. And the offering Pak-FA in what appears to be in an unfinished airframe.
The Russians want an overall better fighter than the F-22A, not necessarily a more "stealthy" one.
GarryB- Posts : 40710
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- Post n°141
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
There is no coating that could be applied that is more transparent than no coating at all...because coatings can be made selectivly to be transparent for certain ranges of frequencies ,that was done long ago in F-22...
Do you perhaps mean coatings that are radar and radio wave absorbent?
You get it.The Russians want an overall better fighter than the F-22A, not necessarily a more "stealthy" one.
No level of radar stealth for an aircraft the size of a fighter will effect its radar appearance in VHF ranges.... ground based detection stations detecting F-22 sized aircraft at hundreds of kms range passing on data to PAK FA who can fire lock on after launch AAMs with IIR seekers can then clean up the skies of enemy aircraft.
Rpg type 7v- Posts : 245
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Join date : 2011-05-01
- Post n°142
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
wrong .
page 3
http://www.f22fighter.com/AffordableStealth.pdf
page 3
http://www.f22fighter.com/AffordableStealth.pdf
GarryB- Posts : 40710
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- Post n°143
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
Hahaha.... WTF would America know about affordable stealth?
Love your source BTW... perhaps I could counter by suggesting an F-16 can detect an F-22 at 200km range and quote www.f16.com as my source?
And Page 3 on the pdf in the link you posted states the opposite of what you talked about.
You were talking about coatings being transparent, yet clearly on page three of the document you posted it talked about external skin composite materials used in aircraft design being transparent or partially transparent and needing metallic coatings to stop radar waves penetrating the composite outer skin and then reflecting off internal structure and wiring that is not shaped for stealth.
In other words the partial radar transparency of the outer skin of the F-22 means they needed skin coatings that reflected radar, not that let radar pass through.
Love your source BTW... perhaps I could counter by suggesting an F-16 can detect an F-22 at 200km range and quote www.f16.com as my source?
And Page 3 on the pdf in the link you posted states the opposite of what you talked about.
You were talking about coatings being transparent, yet clearly on page three of the document you posted it talked about external skin composite materials used in aircraft design being transparent or partially transparent and needing metallic coatings to stop radar waves penetrating the composite outer skin and then reflecting off internal structure and wiring that is not shaped for stealth.
In other words the partial radar transparency of the outer skin of the F-22 means they needed skin coatings that reflected radar, not that let radar pass through.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Join date : 2011-12-06
- Post n°144
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
http://www.knaapo.ru/rus/gallery/events/combat/t-50/t-50-5.wbp
Wow, that paint scheme looks superb.
Also, radiation icons on LEVCONs and slats.
http://russianplanes.net/id124983
Mein Got....
Wow, that paint scheme looks superb.
Also, radiation icons on LEVCONs and slats.
http://russianplanes.net/id124983
Mein Got....
collegeboy16- Posts : 1135
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- Post n°145
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
...call me the pak-fapper cause im about to fap on this one...TR1 wrote:http://www.knaapo.ru/rus/gallery/events/combat/t-50/t-50-5.wbp
Wow, that paint scheme looks superb.
Also, radiation icons on LEVCONs and slats.
http://russianplanes.net/id124983
Mein Got....
Viktor- Posts : 5796
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Age : 44
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- Post n°146
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
Im stunned. I could not even imagine something like this. Just great - it looks like a GREAT WHITE SHARK
medo- Posts : 4343
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- Post n°147
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
Agree, they could just draw shark mouth on it and angry eyes...Viktor wrote:Im stunned. I could not even imagine something like this. Just great - it looks like a GREAT WHITE SHARK
mack8- Posts : 1039
Points : 1093
Join date : 2013-08-02
- Post n°148
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
That for fun yes, plus low viz grey stars and the bort number (also low-viz) relocated on the fins for the operational examples, and would be even better.Agree, they could just draw shark mouth on it and angry eyes...
Rpg type 7v- Posts : 245
Points : 97
Join date : 2011-05-01
- Post n°149
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
An aircraft
’s radar is usually a very significant
contributor to an aircraft
’s signature. The F-22
design significantly reduces the radar
’s signature using
a combination of a bandpass resonant radome and
low signature rada
r.The F-22 radome is one of the
most complex structural components on the F-2The radome
’s primary design considerations were:
•In-band radar performance
•Low Observables
•Structural loads including bird strike integrity
•Rain Erosion
•Maintainability
, and
•
Lightning strike integrity (Figure 5)
The Raptors radar is an active element array which
is tilted back to reduce direct reflection. Element
manufacturing emphasizes accuracy and repeatabil-
ity across the large number of radar array elements.
Key manufacturing processes for circulator radia-
tor, and T/R module assembly have been automated
to ensure affordabi..
Thats what is says. or lets ask SOC?
Good paint on pak-fa by the way.
’s radar is usually a very significant
contributor to an aircraft
’s signature. The F-22
design significantly reduces the radar
’s signature using
a combination of a bandpass resonant radome and
low signature rada
r.The F-22 radome is one of the
most complex structural components on the F-2The radome
’s primary design considerations were:
•In-band radar performance
•Low Observables
•Structural loads including bird strike integrity
•Rain Erosion
•Maintainability
, and
•
Lightning strike integrity (Figure 5)
The Raptors radar is an active element array which
is tilted back to reduce direct reflection. Element
manufacturing emphasizes accuracy and repeatabil-
ity across the large number of radar array elements.
Key manufacturing processes for circulator radia-
tor, and T/R module assembly have been automated
to ensure affordabi..
Thats what is says. or lets ask SOC?
Good paint on pak-fa by the way.
GarryB- Posts : 40710
Points : 41212
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°150
Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2
Well Duh... most radar radomes have those attributes...
Nothing new here... most are.
By EFFECTIVE I do not mean transparent... a radar transparent coating does not effect radar waves and therefore is useless as a stealthy coating.
Coatings can be made that are effective against high frequencies like X band radar... but coatings effective against VHF would need to be several metres thick... only shaping is effective and shaping to be effective needs a large shape... like the size of the B-2.
The size of a modern fighter is too small... VHF radar does not see shape, so the stealthy shape of the F-22 is not effective, nor would any coating transparent or otherwise.
The same for every fighter flying and they all are the same in the sense that they are radar transparent in the radar frequencies used by the aircraft itself... otherwise the radar inside wouldn't work, but also opaque to other frequencies. Most aircraft and even missiles offset the angle of the main radar antenna array so that enemy radar waves entering the radome are nod reflected directly back to the target as that would create an enormous radar signature... a bit like a luneburg lens effect or corner reflector.An aircraft
’s radar is usually a very significant
contributor to an aircraft
’s signature.
In other words very transparent and low distortion of the F-22s own radar waves... pretty much the same for every fighter since WWII.The F-22 radome is one of the
most complex structural components on the F-2The radome
’s primary design considerations were:
•In-band radar performance
Well duh... the basic shape deflects waves directed at it elsewhere...•Low Observables
Birdstrike, lightning and rain are things all radomes are designed to deal with...•Structural loads including bird strike integrity
•Rain Erosion
•Maintainability, and
•
Lightning strike integrity
The Raptors radar is an active element array which
is tilted back to reduce direct reflection.
Nothing new here... most are.
Coatings cannot be made EFFECTIVE in all frequencies.because coatings can be made selectivly to be transparent for certain ranges of frequencies ,that was done long ago in F-22...
By EFFECTIVE I do not mean transparent... a radar transparent coating does not effect radar waves and therefore is useless as a stealthy coating.
Coatings can be made that are effective against high frequencies like X band radar... but coatings effective against VHF would need to be several metres thick... only shaping is effective and shaping to be effective needs a large shape... like the size of the B-2.
The size of a modern fighter is too small... VHF radar does not see shape, so the stealthy shape of the F-22 is not effective, nor would any coating transparent or otherwise.