INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

magnumcromagnon wrote:
Why not just convert a Zircon to launch munitions and fly back.  

Mindstorm wrote:
USA analysts , like ours, are perfectly aware of those geo-strategic dynamics and that the actual exit from INF greatly penalize them while opening other enormous opportunities for us ,also and above all in the conventional struggle  and not only for the effect that on this balance will produce the grounding of the sub-strategic "Циркон" and "Кинжал" but above all because any future IRBM equiped with an Авангард vehicle will attain global reach while not being limited by START,  but them lack any credible alternatives.  

RTN wrote:

Your point about lack of R & D is not true. The Glide Breaker program is being designed specifically to defeat hypersonic vehicles.

https://www.fbo.gov/index.php?_cview=0&id=ba100893931fb47264d09521173f7435&mode=form&s=opportunity&tab=core

Do IRBMs carry hypersonic glide vehicles ? If not they can be targetted using PAC 3.

R wrote: (1) what percentage of cruise missiles that Russia has (or even US has) are actually supersonic? Speed itself is not enough. (2) Notice that there are no takers for Brahmos despite the fact that it is a supersonic missile.

miketheterrible wrote:Add Kalibr to that list too.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Add Kalibr to that list too.

hmm although Kalibr is a great CM I dont think is stealth optimized

magnumcromagnon wrote:Yes, not stealth optimized but there are ways around it. I remember when the first Kalibrs were fired from Buyan-M's into Syria from the Caspian Sea. Presumably the ECM assets in Syria were actually masking the presence of their flight. The Pentagon spokesman admitted they couldn't effectively track them. There's a saying in the English language "There's more than one way to skin a cat", RAM coating and stealth shaping are one way (only effective against X-band), the other ways include using electromagnetic spectrum opaque aerosol made up aluminum-silicate particulate which is effective in every wavelength, the other way was already mentioned is to use ECM to mask the presence of an object.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:Yes, not stealth optimized but there are ways around it. I remember when the first Kalibrs were fired from Buyan-M's into Syria from the Caspian Sea. Presumably the ECM assets in Syria were actually masking the presence of their flight. The Pentagon spokesman admitted they couldn't effectively track them. There's a saying in the English language "There's more than one way to skin a cat", RAM coating and stealth shaping are one way (only effective against X-band), the other ways include using electromagnetic spectrum opaque aerosol made up aluminum-silicate particulate which is effective in every wavelength, the other way was already mentioned is to use ECM to mask the presence of an object.

There's no question about what you've said  nonetheless Russian  CMs' shape evolution shows this also has importance.
In every case couple of hours waiting for CM application result is in war were Avangard go to antipodes in 30minutes a bit long for ABM attacking. For conventional war or retaliation of course this another story.

magnumcromagnon wrote:So what do you think about the development of Kalibr-M? They'll be a range upgrade, but not a ram/shaping upgrade, which would otherwise be a naval Kh-101. It was speculated that Kh-101 would find it's way in to UKSK/M, but it seems like that's not the case. For that matter the USN has never attempted to make Tomahawks stealthy, and their obsession with stealth is myopic/tunnel-vision derangement level.

The Pentagon began developing missiles in case of the collapse of the INF.

The United States has announced the development of new non-nuclear missiles. According to the statement of the new executive head of the Pentagon, research is being conducted in case the DISMD is terminated.

The Treaty on Medium and Short Range Missiles (DDRM), which is under threat of termination due to the policy of Donald Trump, may cause a new arms race. As stated by the. The head of the US military department, Mark Esper, in case of the termination of the agreement, Washington began the development of promising non-nuclear missiles.

According to Esper, the United States complies with the provisions of the INF. However, "in order to cope with potential threats," America began developing new non-nuclear missiles. According to the head of the Pentagon, both research and development work in this direction is already underway.

Esper: NATO should develop a missile defense system

Mark Esper also noted that the United States and the North Atlantic Alliance should strengthen the missile defense system in order to defend themselves against any type of Russian cruise missile.

"At the moment, European countries are under threat from cruise missiles with nuclear warheads from Russia."

We do not want a new arms race.

- declared Esper.

History of SMDR

The United States and the Soviet Union signed the Treaty on Medium and Short Range Missiles on December 8, 1987. On June 1, 1988, it entered into force. Thanks to this document, it was possible to overcome the crisis, which threatened to lead to an even greater arms race and significantly increased the risks of a nuclear war.

The de jure treaty eliminated a whole class of missiles: the ban included the production, testing and deployment of medium-range ballistic and cruise missiles (medium range from 1,000 to 5,500 km) and a shorter range (from 500 to 1,000 km). In addition, launchers for these types of missiles fell under the same prohibitions.

Some time ago, the United States accused the Russian Federation of violating the terms of the treaty, after which, on October 20 last year, United States President Donald Trump threatened to suspend its validity. After Trump's statements, US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo presented Russia with an ultimatum, according to which Moscow had to destroy or modify the 9M729 missile: Russia refused to do so.

At the beginning of February, Washington suspended its participation in DPDMD 2, after which Russian President Vladimir Putin declared that Moscow’s response would be a mirror one. It is assumed that the United States will withdraw from the treaty in early July.


https://topwar.ru/159510-pentagon-nachal-razrabotku-raket-na-sluchaj-kraha-drsmd.html

magnumcromagnon wrote:Both sides are now 'officially' out of the treaty, and they've been recently pointing fingers at eachother. NATO moving it's goal posts East, and disguising it's launchers as SAMS (mk. 41 cells), the real question is how will the Federation respond? Personally I think the first response is that they develop cruise missile analog for their MLRS. Imagine if they made a family of cruise missiles for Tornado-G/Grad, Tornado-U/Uragan, Tornado-S/Smerch? I could definitely see a cruise missile for Tornado-S/Smerch having 1500-2500km range, maybe seeing the Tornado-U/Uragan cruise missiles have 1000-1500km range, and the Tornado-G/Grad equivalents that extend to 250-500km range.

Of course they'll need to have smaller warheads to maximize the amount of fuel, which would be O.K. because they'll be carrying rather potent nuclear warheads. Another interesting option if they developed the cruise missiles for MLRS, but they made a system that allowed attack helicopters, fighter/strike bombers and other aerial vehicles that could use the newly developed MLRS cruise missiles. I could see Mi-24/28, Ka-52 using the aerial launched version of Tornado-G cruise missiles, while strike bombers like the Su-32/34 could launch the Tornado-U/S variants. The cruise missiles launched by the Su-34's would have significantly higher performance (range wise) the higher the altitude they're launched. It'll also be interesting what they could do with tactical and strategic airlift in regards to this. Could they multi-stack on the weapon pylons on the Il-476? Or maybe they could use the internal space for that capacity?

JohninMK wrote:Interesting analysis

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/08/the-end-of-the-inf-treaty-will-not-create-a-new-arms-race.html

Mindstorm wrote:US has tested a ground launched cruise missile with range capability outside of the limits imposed by INF Treaty until 2 of this same month.

https://dod.defense.gov/News/Special-Reports/Videos/?videoid=703577


Obviously nothing already attentively projected and planned since a long time.......    


All of that while getting the face to accuse the Federation of theirs sins..........simply disgusting.

Mindstorm wrote:US has tested a ground launched cruise missile with range capability outside of the limits imposed by INF Treaty until 2 of this same month.

https://dod.defense.gov/News/Special-Reports/Videos/?videoid=703577


Obviously nothing already attentively projected and planned since a long time.......    


All of that while getting the face to accuse the Federation of theirs sins..........simply disgusting.