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    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:10 am

    George1 wrote:Russia to produce intermediate-range missile in 6 months, depending on US steps — senator

    The senator believes that the option to re-negotiate the INF Treaty persists


    https://tass.com/defense/1120795

    If Russia wants a new treaty, then it better include France and the UK. The previous INF was a sellout that
    allowed NATzO to keep IRBMs (from France and UK) while scrapping all those possessed by the USSR. As if the
    USA was the only country in NATzO with IRBMs.

    The USA uses Chinese strategic missile development as well as development by Iran to argue against the INF.
    This is exactly the argument against France and the UK. So any new INF must destroy all IRBMs possessed by
    NATzO in Europe. France and the UK cannot argue sovereignty since they are part of the NATzO alliance.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:42 am

    Include all NATO states. Otherwise Poland or Romania will receive such missiles.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:50 am

    Hole wrote:Include all NATO states. Otherwise Poland or Romania will receive such missiles.

    Agreed.

    This INF treaty was BS for Russia anyway. They need to start making the new missile now and not wait. USA is already making the missile and Russia knows this. I presume they are making excuses as to why they arent doing it now which is a security issue in itself. I also presume they are saying this while they already have a missile or are in the process of making one that would deal with this issue.

    I still think the Kalibr mobile launcher with 6 ready to fire missiles is the best option. Or fit it somehow with Yakhont missiles
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:51 pm

    A proliferation of IRBMs and cruise missiles of intermediate range is no problem for Russia... they have already spent the money developing the sensors to detect such attacks and the missiles to deal with them... it is Europe that is in the shit over this... Russia should not sign anything.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:17 am

    MIRM medium-range ballistic missile development program to be discontinued in the US

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3936488.html
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:34 pm

    Don't tell me the Trump administration is this stupid? (mods please don't remove this post, it's indirectly relevant to the discussion)

    Mexico's popular President AMLO, the nation's first left-wing leader in over 5 decades, has just exposed a right-wing plot to try to remove him from power

    Documents show opposition groups are conspiring together, with foreign support, to try to unseat him

    https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1270513376159023104

    It's relevant here because if Trump is trying to wage a coup in Mexico, and if it fails you know who Obrador will turn too to prevent any future coups. If he's smart he'll contact Russia/China to prevent this crisis. Trumps 1st term has been extremely hostile towards Mexico, and with the current Covid crisis border trade between US/MX suffered heavily, and Trump might really be pushing his luck if he decides to start sanctioning MX if they refuse to kowtow. Such a hostile response may see MX be driven in to strategic relationships with Russia in the military sphere (S-400's in Monterrey), and with the looming IRBM crisis, we can all understand securing the southern border is pivotal.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:54 pm

    The trump method seems to be to blunder in and rip up all existing agreements blaming everyone else that they are not working... even though they were and then try to rewrite a new deal that is more favourable to the US.

    He is great at ripping up agreements but poor at establishing new ones... after calling your enemy rocket man, how do you then sell an agreement with them?
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:13 pm

    Looking back at the treaty it's clear how much of a treasonous comprador Gorbachev was. He didn't just destroy missiles that fell under the INF Treaty, he ordered the destruction of ballistic missiles that DIDN'T fall underneath the new treaty, such as Oka which had a max range of 400km. It's quite embarrassing how the lap-dog behavior developed in to the mind of Mikhail Compradorchev, the order to destroy Oka was so outrageous that the legendary designer Sergey Nepobedimy was forced to resign in disgust. Gordochev probably grew in to being a insecure weasel who craves and begs for others acceptance (look what the whimpering faggot did to earn his Nobel prize), to compensate for his low self-esteem he developed by growing up with a bird shit-stain birthmark.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:32 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Looking back at the treaty it's clear how much of a treasonous comprador Gorbachev was. He didn't just destroy missiles that fell under the INF Treaty, he ordered the destruction of ballistic missiles that DIDN'T fall underneath the new treaty, such as Oka which had a max range of 400km. It's quite embarrassing how the lap-dog behavior developed in to the mind of Mikhail Compradorchev, the order to destroy Oka was so outrageous that the legendary designer Sergey Nepobedimy was forced to resign in disgust. Gordochev probably grew in to being a insecure weasel who craves and begs for others acceptance (look what the whimpering faggot did to earn his Nobel prize), to compensate for his low self-esteem he developed by growing up with a bird shit-stain birthmark.

    Gorbie was the prime agent in the operation to dissolve the USSR. And as with all similar operations such as Yugoslavia, Russians were screwed over the
    hardest. Oka and other Soviet defense assets were not the only thing compromised. The whole economy was compromised and a class of parasites
    such as Khodorkovsky and Berezovsky were allowed to rise from total obscurity to take over the economy and secure their grand scale theft via mafia
    tactics which included dozens of murders.

    Gorbie's pandering to NATzO, including taking its word for not expanding east was an obvious sell out. For many years this clown has been getting
    his validation from outside Russia. Russians know him for what he did and what he is.

    Anyway, it looks like under Putin, things have been restored to normal. Lavrov recently noted that any attempt to deploy IRBMs to Europe will be
    met with a swift Russian reply. The yanquis are squirming with their cancellation of one treaty after another but that is not giving them any
    advantages.

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    Post  hoom on Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:11 am

    An interesting post-script: US is loosening up on its definitions of MTCR compliance so it can sell Predators to other countries.
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-press-secretary-unmanned-aerial-systems-exports/

    Currently it doesn't sell them because the US considers armed drones to be cruise-missile tech restricted by MTCR.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:15 am

    hoom wrote:An interesting post-script: US is loosening up on its definitions of MTCR compliance so it can sell Predators to other countries.
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-press-secretary-unmanned-aerial-systems-exports/

    Currently it doesn't sell them because the US considers armed drones to be cruise-missile tech restricted by MTCR.

    Which means even they know they were violating the INF Treaty in a multitude of ways.

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    Post  hoom on Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:18 am

    Exactly.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:55 am

    Yet more evidence of the US violating the INF Treaty:

    U.S. Navy BC-M-109 Tomahawk cruise missile emerging from a Mark 41 vertical launcher cell is displayed during the National Victory Celebration honoring the coalition forces of Desert Storm
    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 32 Edu2X3qWkAIuBLd?format=jpg&name=large

    https://twitter.com/Casillic/status/1286822666209579015

    The INF Treaty was signed in June 1988, and this celebration with a Mk.41 cell with a Tomahawk cruise missile (on land) was in August 1991. Such a blatant and brazen violation of the INF Treaty only 3 years after it was originally signed.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:04 am

    Back in 1991 the USSR was gone and the yanquis thought they won a new 1000 year Reich.

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:33 pm

    I seem to remember the Americans were a bit shitty in the 1990s about the SS-23... it was withdrawn from Russian service but I seem to remember that the East Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Bulgaria also had some. East Germany got rid of theirs pretty quick, but Bulgaria and Slovakia refused to scrap them because they were not bound by the INF treaty... plus they didn't actually violate the treaty anyway as their range was less than 500km... they were cold war Iskander manouvering missiles... their manouvering cost them range...
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    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:20 am

    Such a blatant and brazen violation of the INF Treaty only 3 years after it was originally signed.
    That I see no issue with.
    Its clearly a non-functional parade float only there symbolising the use of Naval Tomahawks in Gulf War I.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:54 am

    hoom wrote:
    Such a blatant and brazen violation of the INF Treaty only 3 years after it was originally signed.
    That I see no issue with.
    Its clearly a non-functional parade float only there symbolising the use of Naval Tomahawks in Gulf War I.

    So your just completely oblivious to the other times they violated the INF Treaty? If I was caught countless times stealing cookies from the cookie jar, I could just stick my hand in the cookie jar and when I'm caught I could just claim that I'm 'pretending' to steal one lol? pwnd  I've violated your trust and lied to you countless times before, just trust me this time......honest, it'll be different...would I lie to you? clown  [/DoubleThink]

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:06 am

    Not a problem now... the US can violate it but now Russia can too, so Russia is much better off with this restriction removed...

    It now means that IRBMs and IRCMs need to be accounted for in START treaty negotiations.

    Previously when they were banned then they didn't matter, but now they are not... US IRCM and IRBMs should now count towards their strategic missile allowance because the US can base them in Europe and Asia... effectively making them strategic nuclear weapons.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:57 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Previously when they were banned then they didn't matter, but now they are not... US IRCM and IRBMs should now count towards their strategic missile allowance because the US can base them in Europe and Asia... effectively making them strategic nuclear weapons.

    But Russia can easily defend against such weapons and does not have enough strategic nuclear nuclear weapons to wipe out all of nato.

    Russia benefits from proliferation of IRCMs and IRBMs because in a war most of western ones will be stopped by Russia's IADS.
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    Post  hoom on Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:48 am

    So your just completely oblivious to the other times they violated the INF Treaty?
    Have you fucking seen my other posts in this thread? Suspect
    I've been the one pointing out their breaches & quoting the Treaty showing how their breaches are breaches.

    This is a dummy on a truck for a parade not in any way representing a possible or planned truck-based system.
    Its a fucking parade float, its not a breach.

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