Shmel wouldn't be as good in those distances they were using. Kornet would do good as it has good AP missile.
The latest version of Shmel is reported to be accurate up to 800m or so, which means it is effective against a lot of targets being fired upon in Afghanistan, but I agree a good weapon to replace the Javelin as it is used in Afghanistan needs a couple of kms range and guidance for accuracy. The best replacement is not the big relatively heavy Kornet, it is actually the light portable Metis-M1... considering most of the targets are not armoured a mix of mostly HE warhead missiles would be the much cheaper option.
Anyways Javelin is not cost efficient system and now it was toppled by other even cheaper but more advanced systems.
A megaphone to yell out to the bad guys that instead of spending 40K on a missile to kill you will give them 10K US dollars to just go home and you save 30K.
Garry what You think about todays ATGM systems, Bill 2 or Spike, even Indian Nag?
I have always had a lot of respect for BILL2... if it was American there would have been millions made. On paper the ARENA can actually deal with BILL2 it is the steeply diving top attack missiles it has problems with due to their steep trajectory.
Spike looks like a very sensible idea too, though with modern UAVs and digital datalinks I think an electronic connection rather than fibre optics might have been a cheaper and simpler choice... the vast majority of ATGMs have been used against unsophisticated enemies incapable of defeating most simple guidance systems.
I don't really know enough about the Nag to comment on it, but I am sure it will likely get the job done.
As a result - as the rounds get newer, their range decreases.
There is an adapter available that increases the angle of the optical sight for the RPG-7 that extends the range of the newer rockets.
The main problem with the RPG-29 is its fixed calibre... generally they have followed the pattern of bringing out a new RPG-7 rocket and then releasing a new disposable rocket equivalent. The advantage of the disposable model is that the warhead is the calibre of the tube so the rocket motor can match the warhead size.
For instance the RPG-22, RPG-26, RPG-27, and RPG-28 have warheads that are matched by the RPG-7 (except the RPG-28). The RPG-27 is a disposable rocket with a 105mm calibre rocket warhead... there is an RPG-7 equivalent and an RPG-29 equivalent. The RPG-28 however has a 125mm calibre rocket warhead but the RPG-29 can't use such a large warhead and I have seen no RPG-7 model because a 125mm warhead with a 40mm rocket tube is just too nose heavy to fly.
In the disposable model the rocket motor can be larger than the 105mm tube of the RPG-29.
Common Sense
For a very long time common sense has been wrong and since proven wrong.
Russians are aware of Spike & Javelin but have yet not been able to come up with a top attack ATGM . Inability ...? or sheer laziness ?
Top attack is expensive. Fitting a missile with a thermal imaging camera is not cheap as every time that missile is launched that camera is destroyed. There is also a thermal camera in the launcher. Together they make the system very expensive to buy and to use. The Russians recognise that having a very expensive missile with bankrupt them, so they will either not get many at all, or they will blow their budget to engage tanks they might never face in real combat. Instead they have just made very capable long range missiles and very cheap and simple short range systems that they can produce in enormous numbers and use regularly and export... Metis-M1 is one of their best sellers... it is powerful ( over 950mm of penetration) and it is effective to 2km, which is useful against a range of static targets like MG nests and sniper positions and bunkers. There is a dedicated model with a HE warhead for such use. A three man team can carry a launcher and 5 missiles.
Javelin can destroy fortified bunkers and can also hit any particular room in a building .
Like any other ATGM made since the 1970s... the G in ATGM means guided.
It has a soft-launch, so it can be fired from inside an enclosed space (read bunker or building).
Not unusual or amazing, though in some situations a useful feature, it is not exactly critical.
The actual rocket motor ignites some twenty or so meters from the launch location. This moves the signature away from the troops firing the
The rocket motor of the RPG-7 ignites at about 11 metres from the tube... do you think that makes them invisible?
The Javelin homes using electro-optical recognition. It actually sees the target and homes on a video image. This means there is no active targetting source (such as a laser or radar) to stop. Javelin is a fire and forget rocket.
Correction, it homes on an IR image of the target and a tank sitting in the middle of a field with its engine off will not be discriminated by the IR sight to allow a fire and forget attack.
During tests the target had to be heated by a bank of a dozen hair dryers so that they could get a lock and fire on the old range target.
They could certainly have guided the missile manually, but that makes it no better than the much much cheaper Metis-M1.
Or maybe lack of small electronics, but not it's not an issue now, so many foreign companies are more than willing to produce components or sell rights to produce them in Russia.
Not really an electronics thing... Shkval-M from the Su-25TM and the similar system in the Ka-50 from the late 1980s had video autotracking capability and optronic guidance. The SA-19 SAM on the Tunguska is optronically guided too.
As far as I can tell I suspect they are waiting for QWIP technology to become cheaper. They are already producing QWIP chips under licence from Thales of France in their Catherine XC thermal cameras they are licence producing now.
In a nutshell think of the light sensitive chip array in a digital camera. A QWIP sensor is very much like this, but can be sensitive to IR and UV light as well as visible light. It means you can have a sensor chip that can magnify existing light levels like an image intensification scope, but can also see in thermal imager frequencies and can combine the image of normal light, low light levels, and heat to form a composite image that combines the best features of all those technologies.
The biggest problem with thermal imagers is that although you can see in total darkness a human is an orange blob that is hard to identify, as are vehicles etc. With a QWIP sensor you can use normal video like Spike and a thermal view like javelin on a chip that when it is mass produced might cost a dollar a chip to make.
Most digital cameras already detect IR light... get your video camera or digital still camera and look through the viewfinder or at the screen and point the camera at your remote control for your TV and press a button on the remote... you can see the flashing IR light.
Some spotlights used for hunting have IR filters and can be used with digital cameras to see in the dark fairly long distances.
Thats cool, but Javelin needs time to be locked on target, cooling takes time, so You expose Yourself. Not best thing when You are facing modern tank with thermals.
More importantly if the tank has IR concealment... even those rubber mats fitted to old T-72s might block the heat signature, or there are a lot of IR signals around the tank that might distract it and you wont get a good lock. Equally an optical port in the missile pointing towards the tank... the Russians have developed a range of anti optics laser systems and the thought that they might not fit them in their brand new armoured vehicles seems a little strange to me.
BTW at about 120m/s both Javelin and Spike are slow missiles... Igla missiles were tested against Falanga missiles which suggests to mean that Igla-S should be able to shoot both ATGMs out of the sky too.
And you have assumed that the US will be sitting on it's a$$ till 2020 doing nothing . By then the US/NATO will have far more advanced ATGMs that will be resistant to jamming and any other countermeasures and can hit enemy targets from 2 miles or more .
And there we have it... this is all about who has the biggest dick.
If the Russians introduce a new ATGM with diving top attack capability, you think the US response should be to make an even more capable missile...
With respect the country with the biggest ATGM is not the "winner" or the best country.
The country that develops weapons that meet its current and near future needs is what we really should be talking about.
For Javelin to be a good system it is not good enough to just be sophisticated and effective... it needs to do the job (which it does), but it needs to do the job better than other missiles could do it, and that is where it fails because it is simply too expensive.
It would actually be an ideal weapon for the guerillas as a fire and run away weapon with a good chance against the Abrams because the gas turbine on an Abrams burns very hot and would be an easy IR target from any angle.
For the US army however they would be better off with something like Milan.
there is nothing wrong with 5,56 mm.
There is nothing wrong with 5.56mm as such, but any guerilla force will look for weaknesses and the fact that NATO forces largely replaced all their infantry weapons with weapons in 5.56mm including their squad support weapons (FN Minimi) it was pretty obvious the best (safest) way to fight was from 700-900m with PKMs and SVDs. The chance of a kill is greatly reduced but the chance of getting shot is also greatly reduced.
It's only effective when lock on is detected and I would rather rely on modern APS than smoke screen.
The various EO systems that would detect the IR signature of an incoming missile should allow the cheaper smoke screen option to be used in conjunction with APS systems. Drozd and ARENA could both deal with low speed missiles, it was only the steep trajectory that made them vulnerable... I would suspect they have dealt with that issue.
Not sure if there is tank that can be properly protected from top-attack. Still feature to come.
The top attack feature of Javelin only works with an IR signature lock. IR dazzlers like Shtora should be effective, and camo systems like Nakidka should too. Launched in conventional mode ARENA and DROZD should be effective.
is nothing wrong with 5,56 mm ? Reformulating the statement replacing "wrong" with "right" would produce an assertion surely much more near to reality......
The whole purpose of the 223 was to be effective at normal battlefield ranges. That means 200-300m which is pretty much what it does.
The problem is not the 223 round, but the NATO armies thinking that because they can hit targets on a shooting range at 600m that it is some sort of replacement for the heavier rounds and heavier weapons like the FN FAL and FN MAG.
Obviously if you dissect a paper target you learn very little from the wound channel and you can assume because you hit in a fairly lethal place that it would be effective to that range. Of course in the real world the wind and the fact that the shooter is likely tired and hungry and scared and the target is not a white paper target with clearly defined circles showing an aim point and of course is likely moving or perhaps even shooting back and the effective range will shrink dramatically... even with a "good shot".
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and ,to the contrary of an attacked MBT or IFV, the chances of survival of a Javelin's operator would be very close to zero.
