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    Russian Army ATGM Thread

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    Post  lyle6 Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:32 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    That's a very good and detailed write up.

    A range of different anti-armour tools at Russia's disposal is impressive.

    The reason I think that a top attack Kornet variant is important is because modern tanks can't be destroyed from the front -- limiting operational options; I understand that tanks would ideally be attacked from the sides.

    There's about a tiny handful of the newest MBT models that can maybe take a Kornet even at their most protected turret front. And they aren't serving in numbers that you can encounter them in the wild. Everything else, gets holed front to back.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:53 am

    Israeli Merkava tanks have a rear entrance as well.

    In terms of armour protection the weakest armour on most tanks is the belly and roof area... the sides and rear of the hull and the turret are generally better protected but not massively so.

    There's about a tiny handful of the newest MBT models that can maybe take a Kornet even at their most protected turret front. And they aren't serving in numbers that you can encounter them in the wild. Everything else, gets holed front to back.

    Depends on whether you believe the bullshit or not.

    With Leopards claiming 2.5m equivalent turret frontal armour that turns out to be spaced armour and therefore probably bullshit then you have to take claims with a grain of salt.
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:06 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Depends on whether you believe the bullshit or not.

    With Leopards claiming 2.5m equivalent turret frontal armour that turns out to be spaced armour and therefore probably bullshit then you have to take claims with a grain of salt.

    Tank designers aren't morons. Given enough resources armor can keep pace with developments in anti-armor. That has not been the case, for nearly 30 years now. Quite unfortunate for tanks, as their counters have not shared the same fate. So we're really looking at tanks that are at best 20 years behind current threats. dunno

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    Russian Army ATGM Thread - Page 30 Empty Russian ATGM Kornet

    Post  Kiko Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:54 am

    Russia develops an algorithm to "cheat" the active defence of tanks, 09.20.2022.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia is developing a "double-launch" algorithm for its Kornet anti-tank missile system that makes it possible to fool the active defence of tanks and other armored vehicles, the director of Armaments of the state business group Rostec, Bekjan Ozdoev, told Sputnik.

    Active defence of tanks represents a system that destroys launched shells, using for that, for example, a block that is fired and throws fragments.

    "The algorithm being developed for the Kornet allows to circumvent modern active defense systems. It is planned to fire two anti-tank missiles at the target with a small interval. In this case, the active defense does not manage to react in time to neutralize the second missile," Ozdoev explained.

    According to him, the "new algorithm" has already been subject to field tests.

    The Kornet system's multi-payload launcher can launch two missiles at once with the same laser beam. It is mounted on various vehicles, for example, on the Russian armored car Tigr.

    The missiles of the Kornet anti-tank system are laser-guided.

    Yandex Translate from Spanish

    https://sputniknews.lat/20220920/rusia-desarrolla-un-algoritmo-para-enganar-la-defensa-activa-de-los-tanques-1130643880.html

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    Post  lyle6 Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:02 am

    Technically Russian MBTs have this capability as standard. Just find a target north of 2 km, open up with a much slower GLATGM, wait for the time it takes the missile to connect minus a second then fire an arrow round. Razz
    You can also do this trick with co-located launchers. Twisted Evil

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    Post  Kiko Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:21 am

    New self-propelled ATGM "Kornet-D1" passed preliminary tests, 10.31.2022.

    Rostec: new self-propelled ATGM "Kornet-D1" passed preliminary tests.

    MOSCOW, October 31 - RIA Novosti. The modernized Russian anti-tank missile system (ATGM) "Kornet-D1" has passed the main volume of preliminary tests and is preparing for state tests, Bekhan Ozdoev, industrial director of the Rostec weapons complex, told RIA Novosti.

    "The main volume of preliminary tests of the self-propelled version of the Kornet-D1 ATGM for the Airborne Forces , located on the BMD-4M chassis , including firing tests, have been completed with positive results," the agency's source said.

    Now, according to him, "the production of a pilot batch for state tests is already underway."

    As previously reported, the combat vehicle of the new self-propelled ATGM is equipped with two automated launchers, each of which has its own telethermal imaging sight, which allows firing at two targets at once. "Kornet-D1" is also equipped with automatic target tracking.

    For this ATGM, missiles with an increased range have also been developed. For an anti-tank missile with a cumulative warhead, it is eight kilometers, with a thermobaric part - up to ten. Missiles of the second type have a non-contact target sensor, which makes it possible to hit low-speed air targets.

    The complex also received a platoon commander's vehicle equipped with reconnaissance and target designation equipment. It provides real-time communication not only between combat vehicles within the unit, but also with the command.

    https://ria.ru/20221031/kornet-d1-1828034541.html



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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jun 21, 2023 7:06 pm

    I will dig out an old thread, but couldn't find anything more suitable.

    Seems like Tigr-driven Kornet D gained a lot of attention due to SMO, and Tula increased seriously both delivery rate and production cap.

    What is interesting, this is how a double salvo looks like en route.

    Russian Army ATGM Thread - Page 30 Zrzut_81

    And what made me even more curious, look at the target in the background ..

    Russian Army ATGM Thread - Page 30 Zrzut_82

    Tasty Merkava 4, or my eyes are fooling me?

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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Jun 21, 2023 7:56 pm

    I wonder if Russia still has stocks of AT-2 and AT-3 I think the latter it's most likely. Could they be used to take out the weaker armoured units. They seem to be using a lot of older stocks up which is a good idea saves on disposable of such. And I know AT-3 was used for targets. I wonder if they could have a minor upgrade AT-3 turned into what Serbia did with the AT-3 and turn it into command guidance and extend the range to 5km I think Serbia called it 2T5. Or maybe they could use the warheads for kamikaze drones. Just an idea to use up the older stocks and they would be suitable for taking out APC, IFV, older tanks, armoured humvees etc.

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    Post  Hole Wed Jun 21, 2023 9:36 pm

    There are warehouses full of Konkurs, Fagot and Metis missiles.
    But the Russian Army is reviving a lot of older stuff from depots this days.
    Maybe some of the older tank destroyers make a comeback in the next weeks/months.
    At least until more of the new stuff has been delivered.

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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:10 am

    I thought the use of RPG-7 warheads in kamikaze drones was a great idea and a fairly powerful warhead. I wonder how accurate the drones are? As using thermobaric warheads from the RPG series could be useful in flying into gaps/windows of buildings. The Lancet, and Geran 1 & 2 have been a nightmare for Ukraine and I believe Russia has learnt a very useful and cheap tool in their arsenal.

    I think the niche weapons that Russia has in its inventory have also been useful as this war has certainly experienced all types of combat from flat plains, forests, rivers, heavy urban areas. Russia seems to have a piece of equipment for every scenario. Something the west lacks. For a few examples Tulpan and Pion for urban and siege warfare, TOS for clearing trenches and large areas of troops, Iskander and kinzhal for touch or key targets including in heavy AD environment. This is just to name a few.

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    Post  Krepost Thu Jun 22, 2023 3:38 am

    Hole wrote:There are warehouses full of Konkurs, Fagot and Metis missiles.
    But the Russian Army is reviving a lot of older stuff from depots this days.
    Maybe some of the older tank destroyers make a comeback in the next weeks/months.
    At least until more of the new stuff has been delivered.

    Old stock Konkurs/Fagot has been used up in training and in recent conflicts (Syria etc.)
    The Tula factory increased its output of these older missiles during the Syrian war and provided scores to the Syrian Arab Army. This happened a few years ago.

    Any Fagot or Konkurs missiles that you see in Ukraine is recent production (no more than a few years old).

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 22, 2023 7:07 am

    Still no information about Bulat... a reduced sized missile for targets that are not MBTs.

    It is much slimmer but that is because the warhead can be rather smaller but is it slower or shorter ranged, because there would be no reason for it to be slower or shorter ranged because its targets would include BMPs and BTRs as well as MRAPs and even infantry positions and even drones.

    I wonder if they would do the same for Metis-M1 for targets that are not as heavy as MBTs they could do what they did with Fagot and Konkurs where the BRDM-3 could carry 15 Konkurs or it could offload 5 of the bigger heavier Konkurs and carry 10 Fagots instead which can kill point targets out to about half the range.

    This meant the vehicle could carry 15 Konkurs or 10 Konkurs and 10 Fagots.

    With Bulat and Metis a ground team that used to carry the highly portable Metis that could carry five missiles and the launcher with three men ( one carried a missile and the launcher, and the other two men could carry two missiles each for five missiles), you could replace two of the Metis missiles with 8 Bulat missiles which are a quarter of the size of the anti tank missiles so a Metis team could have one guy with the Metis launcher and a single missile and a second guy with one Metis missile and four Bulat missiles and a third guy with a Metis missile and four Bulat missiles for a total of three Metis missiles and 8 Bulat missiles.

    Of course upgrading the Metis launcher for laser beam riding missiles would allow the Metis missile to adapt to beam riding guidance so trailing a wire is not longer needed making the missile lighter and potentially much faster because it does not carry or drag the wire.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:04 am

    Honestly, this Korned-D combined with Tigr is pure porn.
    We talk about a 5t ATV that carries 16 (!!sixteen!!) missiles, 8 of them ready to fire.
    With TWO independent guidance channels.
    Capable to shoot salvos with less than 1s interval.
    And it seems that both stations can guide a missile no matter if it was fired from their own quadropack or the other.
    Plus there is no external difference, so the destroyer looks like an ordinary Tigr en route.
    Last but not least, we have a 10+km range already.
    There is not a single vehicle or dedicated tank destroyer on the planet even close to that, no matter if it is 3 or 5 times heavier.
    It is simply speaking unimaginable.
    Bulat can add one more advantage, that is even more missiles on board.
    But I wouldn't expect much price gap, the most expensive elements are being used on both of them. Warhead size and the body size do not make a price, you know.

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    Post  Krepost Sun Jul 02, 2023 5:20 am

    Weekly Voennaya Priomka (Combat Approved) starts in just a few hours:
    KORNET the interceptor of NATO armor.


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    Post  GarryB Sun Jul 02, 2023 9:53 am

    The thing is that the Bulat is quite a bit smaller and probably lighter than Kornet...

    Russian Army ATGM Thread - Page 30 Army-224

    Bulat tube on the left hand side and Kornet tube on the right... if they want to double tap targets with two missiles arriving nearly together you could have 8 or more Bulat missiles on one launcher and four on the other launcher and fire the Bulat first and Kornet second so the Bulat is likely engaged so the Kornet gets a free shot...

    Bulat actually looks like a 70mm tube... note the 57mm rounds beside and in front of it... which means a Bulat system is the equivalent of a M72 LAW or RPG-18... so if you have some sort of compact simple launcher with a laser beam marker for the missile to fly down it... it could be a light Kornet guided NLAW rival...

    It does not look any shorter than Kornet and being thinner should be rather more aerodynamic and low drag, but like Kornet it will have the rocket motor and fuel in the middle with a rear mounted main warhead and nose mounted precursor charge.

    The Kornet has the HEAT model anti armour version and a HE Frag armed anti everything else (drone/sniper/MG/soft vehicle/bunker) version... an anti drone version would be interesting too.

    Lots of potential.

    Of course it would be rather easier to speculate if we knew more about it like flight speed and range and what it is capable of.

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    Post  ALAMO Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:17 am

    Bulat is a spinn off from Kornet-MR. It was a project active 25 years ago, and talks about "reduced range/size" were common.
    It's range was to be 2500m.
    Kornet as we speak has at least three generations of missiles.
    The first is 9M133 missile revealed to the public and export in 1994. It has 5500m range and "1000+ mm" penetration cap.
    In the 00s, second generation of Kornet was presented. It included 9M133-1 tandem HEAT missile with 1200mm penetration and 9M133F-1 thermobaric missile.
    It is quite interestingly constructed, as it has a standard HE warhead covered with pulverized aluminum coating. Explosion spreads the aluminum, that ignites after increasing destructive power. This construction allows it to penetrate walls and detonate inside.
    In the 2011, third generation of Kornet was revealed, called M. It includes 9M133M-2 HEAT with 8 km range and 1300 mm penetration, 9M133FM-2 is FAE with 8 km range, and 9M133FM-3 is HE with 10km range and non-contact fuze. The FM-3 can be used against air targets.
    There is nothing known about 9M133M-1 yet, and the timetable would suggest that we are to face IVth generation of 9M133 soon.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Jul 02, 2023 2:31 pm

    Bulat is a spinn off from Kornet-MR. It was a project active 25 years ago, and talks about "reduced range/size" were common.
    It's range was to be 2500m.

    Improvements in electronics and propellant over these years I would think 2.5km is a bit short.

    I mean realistically if they are going to be putting it on their new vehicles (shown in the photo above in the Epocha turret with the 57mm grenade launcher) I would think letting enemy armour like BMPs and BTRs getting within 3km of the vehicle before being able to engage them is a bit risky.

    I would think all these years of development and being laser directed essentially that they could do rather better than 2.5kms despite how small the missile appears to be.

    With laser beam riding and new laser range finders able to range well out to rather significant distances these days that it might even be able to loft the missile up into the air with a ballistic computer angling the laser beam it is riding precisely enough to shape a trajectory to reach rather further than if it just flew a direct line of sight to the target.

    Even flying upwards 2.5km and then descending on the target for the next km or two it might reach 5km without too many problems and have a diving attack flight profile that might actually make the HEAT warhead more effective considering the sizes of western turrets...

    If it was a replacement for Metis-M1 then 2.5km would be fine, but if it is only travelling 2.5km then Konkurs would make more sense... they already have lots of those and with probably better penetration too.

    Russian Army ATGM Thread - Page 30 28642713

    There is nothing known about 9M133M-1 yet, and the timetable would suggest that we are to face IVth generation of 9M133 soon.

    Could be related to a trend though with the smaller Pantsir missile for use against drones and the smaller TOR also meant for use over shorter ranges at drones, this new missile could be optimised for use against drones and lighter armoured ground targets, which would mean a proximity air burst HE Frag Warhead and a HEAT warhead option would be rather useful for a range of different roles.

    A mini missile and launcher for special forces use that could hit point targets out to 5 or 6km would be useful, and as a supliment to other heavier missiles for targets that don't warrant a heavier missile to deal with... for Kornet and Metis launchers... perhaps a revision of Metis to use laser beam riding guidance so it can fly further and faster perhaps?

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    Post  ALAMO Sun Jul 02, 2023 5:35 pm

    I guess this thing has its logic from the beginning, and answers some certain threat.
    2500m (+?) fits Javelin if you ask me, and the timetable would fit it either.
    Plus a few other NATO deployed AT tools o the era - outrange them with a big margin.
    So I guess a mass stock missile will kill the AT teams on approach.
    And deal with other targets that don't need a massive full body Kornet.
    Looking at the size, I would guess that you can have a three-pack for every Kornet tube.
    Make it 3+km range, HE/FAE warhead with contact/noncontact/delayed fuze, and you can beat the shit out of every single target on the battlefield. Including small drones.

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    Post  d_taddei2 Sun Jul 02, 2023 8:05 pm

    @ garryb you mentioned it would be good to have a anti drone version i think it would be fairly easy to do, if i am correct in saying Iran designed the Qaem anti air missile range of 6km max altitude 2km this was originally designed from the Toophan/TOW missile. they also used the same tech to design a air to surface glide bomb to be launched by drones. I think Bulat could be very useful as an anti drone and as a air to surface missile fired from a drone. They could easily change the warheads to suit, thermobaric, HE-FRAG, HEAT, AA missile etc etc.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:21 am

    I guess this thing has its logic from the beginning, and answers some certain threat.
    2500m (+?) fits Javelin if you ask me, and the timetable would fit it either.

    But firing from such ranges at BMPs is dangerous because you are well inside its range of fire with 25mm to 50mm guns and unlike Javelin you need a clear line of sight to the target from launch to impact...

    Looking at the size, I would guess that you can have a three-pack for every Kornet tube.

    The retractable launchers on the Epocha turrets I have seen (the 30mm armed ones) appear to use something like the quad launcher for Kornet but are carrying 8 Bulat missiles ready to fire... making it compatible would make sense just as they made the missile launcher arms on the BRDM-3 compatible with both the AT-4 and AT-5 missiles where they could mount a mix of missiles on the five launch rails ready to launch.

    Make it 3+km range, HE/FAE warhead with contact/noncontact/delayed fuze, and you can beat the shit out of every single target on the battlefield. Including small drones.

    My understanding was a core reason for the HE frag version of the Kornet-EM with the 10km range including 10km altitude was to enable drones with low RCS and low IR signature could be engaged.

    Having a lighter smaller missile would make sense because you don't need 1.2m of armour penetration performance to deal with most non MBT targets.

    (That video above is interesting in that feedback from operational use included the example that the enemy were driving in civilian cars and a Kornet hit the front vehicle which penetrated that vehicle completely and also destroyed the three cars following it too... meaning four vehicles stopped with one missile.)

    Having a precision guided high speed missile (supersonic) with a HE warhead that can be fused to penetrate armour while also spreading metal fragments around the place would be very useful, but if it could only reach 2-2.5km then Metis already does this so the HE version could be used instead...

    I think the idea of basing the missile on the Kornet was to expand the options for all Kornet based launchers to more efficiently engage a range of different targets.

    @ garryb you mentioned it would be good to have a anti drone version i think it would be fairly easy to do, if i am correct in saying Iran designed the Qaem anti air missile range of 6km max altitude 2km this was originally designed from the Toophan/TOW missile. they also used the same tech to design a air to surface glide bomb to be launched by drones. I think Bulat could be very useful as an anti drone and as a air to surface missile fired from a drone. They could easily change the warheads to suit, thermobaric, HE-FRAG, HEAT, AA missile etc etc.

    The Bulat appears to be the size of an RPG-18... perhaps a bit longer... how about a modular model.

    Assuming it is based on the Kornet in layout that means there is a small precursor charge in the front and the main HEAT warhead at the rear (externally painted yellow in the image above) which gives the main charge a good standoff distance for better penetration as the plasma beam is formed properly before hitting the armour.

    Imagine issuing the missile with optional different nose charges... one to start a penetration or defeat ERA, one that just has a fragmentation forward facing charge, and perhaps one with no charge at all and instead a proximity laser sensor for use against flying targets. The rear main charge could be fused at the back to penetrate armour but also fused at the sides or front so it explodes more like a bomb and sends fragments everywhere, so you could attach the suitable nose piece and set the fuse on launch... maybe I am making it too complicated...

    Either way it would be a compact light accurate weapon able to destroy Patriot missiles or S-300 missiles or other large SAM launch tubes from a couple of kms away which would make it ideal for special forces... they are light and you can carry quite a few and could be air delivered to you by drone too...

    I suspect the idea behind the Bulat is talk of suicide drones, having a light accurate fast guided missile that was affordable and could be deployed in enormous numbers but still take down drones.

    Like I said above Pantsir and TOR and these new SAMs they are developing to intercept artillery shells and rockets and drones... the latter missiles will have ARH for precision, but command guided and beam riding makes them cheap so you can afford to buy them and also use them in enormous numbers... which is critical... no point having the best super missile if you only get twenty because they are so expensive, and super expensive weapons you will get told off for using and you find yourself wondering if the target justifies the use of the weapon... when they are good weapons and they are cheap then you use them which makes them something many western super weapons are not... effective.

    Also... I noticed further up it talked about Kornet double tapping missile launches to defeat APS systems... their underbarrel grenade launchers had two range scales... one in red and one in white, white being direct fire and red being indirect fire so you could load a grenade and use the red scale... aim and fire and start counting in seconds... reload the second grenade which you just push in through the muzzle and flick the sight to the same range in white (say 320m to the target) and then when you get to 9 seconds or 12 seconds (can't remember which) and then fire the second round, and if you time it right both rounds land at about the same time...

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jul 03, 2023 7:54 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:@ garryb you mentioned it would be good to have a anti drone version i think it would be fairly easy to do, if i am correct in saying Iran designed the Qaem anti air missile range of 6km max altitude 2km this was originally designed from the Toophan/TOW missile. they also used the same tech to design a air to surface glide bomb to be launched by drones. I think Bulat could be very useful as an anti drone and as a air to surface missile fired from a drone. They could easily change the warheads to suit, thermobaric, HE-FRAG, HEAT, AA missile etc etc.

    Actually no, and that surprised me.
    Different generations of 9M133 are built different, and that applies to the internal construction either.
    For example, the 9M133M-2 has a standard composition of warhead, meaning it is located in the front of the missile.
    While the early 9M133 and 9M133M was unconventional, with the main warhead located in the missile back, behind the engine and fuel section.
    There is even a difference in steering surfaces between the missiles, the FM-3 is the most complicated one.
    Versions differ with the warhead construction, size, location, some lack the precursor charge retained for the others ... Some are lighter, some are heavier, shorter, longer ... by 11-12 mm or 2 kg, yet still Laughing
    So from a constructional perspective, the whole family can be considered as different missiles, only slightly similar.

    GarryB wrote:

    But firing from such ranges at BMPs is dangerous because you are well inside its range of fire with 25mm to 50mm guns and unlike Javelin you need a clear line of sight to the target from launch to impact...

    Yes that is right, that's why I bet the 2500+ range. Like 4000 Laughing
    I suppose it is achievable with the size, considering that Kornet range doubled de facto only with the fuel composition change.

    And by the way, those four cars were parking, not driving. They shoot at "skupienie techniki" - a parking.

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    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Sun Aug 13, 2023 2:38 pm

    Kornet-D1
    Russian Army ATGM Thread - Page 30 Img_2047

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    Post  Hole Sun Aug 13, 2023 4:32 pm

    VDV version based on the BTR-MDM

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    Post  thegopnik Sun Aug 20, 2023 5:53 am

    got this off the PowerPoint presentation pdf from LMFS on the Su-57 thread that LMUR is planned on getting a detonation engine which will probably increase the performance of the missile over the current solid engine propellent design.

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