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    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

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    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts - Page 3 Empty Re: History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

    Post  Guest on Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:52 pm

    eridan wrote:According to take off magazine article about mig's history and their tables of production,  1330 mig29 of all kinds were produced by 1992.

    Soviet breakup was earlier so a few less, and some were exported, so again some 100+ less. Some were lost in accidents, etc...

    Over 1000 for sure (including UB trainers) possibly up to 1200 at the moment of breakup.

    100+ less? Ukraine alone inherited more than that.
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    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:16 pm

    eridan wrote:According to take off magazine article about mig's history and their tables of production,  1330 mig29 of all kinds were produced by 1992.

    Soviet breakup was earlier so a few less, and some were exported, so again some 100+ less. Some were lost in accidents, etc...

    Over 1000 for sure (including UB trainers) possibly up to 1200 at the moment of breakup.

    800+ sounds about right to me.

    The cold war was the biggest arms race of all time. The biggest most overkill armament of all time. 400 ? Nah.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:08 am



    Militarov wrote:100+ less? Ukraine alone inherited more than that.


    Militarov probably you want to know the number of MiG-29 - of different designation - operative with Russian Air Force after URSS's breakup while nastle77 want to know the number of MiG-29 operative with Soviet Air Force -excluded Warsaw Pact nations air forces - up to that date Wink


    From the previously mentioned book:

    "In 1992-93 the Russian Air Force operated about 580 MiG-29s, including the test and development aircraft owned by the Mykoyan OKB.
    By 2002 this had dwindled to about 490 machines ,including 239 Fulcrums in service with first-line units, 145 aircraft operated by training units and 89 aircraft at the Air Force's storage depots"

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    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts - Page 3 Empty Right before breakup of USSR how many mig 29 were operational with VVS ?

    Post  nastle77 on Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:40 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:

    Militarov wrote:100+ less? Ukraine alone inherited more than that.


    Militarov probably you want to know the number of MiG-29 - of different designation - operative with Russian Air Force after URSS's breakup while nastle77 want to know the number of MiG-29 operative with Soviet Air Force -excluded Warsaw Pact nations air forces - up to that date Wink


    From the previously mentioned book:

    "In 1992-93 the Russian Air Force operated about 580 MiG-29s, including the test and development aircraft owned by the Mykoyan OKB.
    By 2002 this had dwindled to about 490 machines ,including 239 Fulcrums in service with first-line units, 145 aircraft operated by training units and 89 aircraft at the Air Force's storage depots"    

    Exactly !
    So it's safe to assume yefim gordon is right in suggesting 800 + mig 29 by 1990 operational with soviet airforces. ?
    I also found that the ATTU or Atlantic to Ural count of fulcrum was 455 in the CFE estimation so probably the rest were still in Pacific or central Asia?
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    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts - Page 3 Empty Mig-23ML production

    Post  nastle77 on Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:26 am

    How many Mig-23ML and MLA were produced ?
    I have read about 1000

    but at the same time about 500 Mig-23P and 500 Mig-23MLD were produced so were these former Mig-23ML and MLA converted to Mig-23P and MLD standards

    OR

    Mig-23P was produced seperately and its numbers were 500 , in addition to the 1000 ML and MLA produced for VVS

    Hope that makes sense

    thanks
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:00 pm

    The MiG 23 that flew for 560 miles without the pilot then crashed in a farm killing a boy

    https://m.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/barney-checkthe-mig-23-that-flew-for-560-miles-without-the-pilot-then-crashed-in-a-farm-killing-a-boy.html
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    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts - Page 3 Empty chaff and flare dispensers in soviet fighters

    Post  nastle77 on Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:31 am

    I was wondering if soviet aircraft in the 80s were fitted with chaff and dispensers?
    was it standard on all versions ? or only on certain specific upgrades

    Also did the soviet aircraft of 80s like Mig-23ML,MLD, Mig-23P,Mig-25PDS ,MiG-29 had chaff/flare dispensers ?
    Thanks
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    Post  Giulio on Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:38 am

    Yes, not only fighters.
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    Post  nastle77 on Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:48 pm

    Giulio wrote:Yes, not only fighters.

    can you give some details

    what kind of systems were installed

    im only interested in fighters

    thanks
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:34 am

    I remember reading comments in the 1990s from mainly british aircraft magazines about how the flares and chaff dispensors of the east german MiG-29s were quite effective against Sidewinders.

    To be clear the early model IR guided missiles often just headed for the hottest thing it could see, which often meant the sun. That led to improved designs with filters that went for the second hottest thing it could see. This led to flares with different intensities. By the 1980s and early 1990s they often detected UV rays which surfaces like metal or engines or even plastics don't give off... only the sun. flares, and burning fuel in an AB. They also changed the seeker to look for patterns of heat instead of individual hot points.

    That is why today most fighters and transports releasing flares release great streams of them in order to make patterns.

    With new IIR sensors that is all pretty much a waste of time and you actually have to actively deal with the sensor using DIRCMs... ie lasers to dazzle or damage optical sensors.
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    Post  Giulio on Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:59 am

    nastle77 wrote:
    Giulio wrote:Yes, not only fighters.

    can you give some details

    what kind of systems were installed

    im only interested in fighters

    thanks

    Afaik on the Mig-29 the dispensers were in a horizontal container placed in front of the root of each tail fin. In The Mig-23/27 in horizontal containers above the fuselage. On the Su-25 near the tail. Different configurations over time. On the Il-76/A-50 near the tail, on both sides. On the An-22 on the landing gear fairings, etc....

    For example:

    https://topwar.ru/21611-istrebiteli-mig-23-v-afganistane.html
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    Post  BlackArrow on Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:51 pm

    nastle77 wrote:I was wondering if soviet aircraft in the 80s were fitted with chaff and dispensers?
    was it standard on all versions ? or only on certain specific upgrades

    Also did the soviet aircraft of 80s like Mig-23ML,MLD, Mig-23P,Mig-25PDS ,MiG-29 had chaff/flare dispensers ?
    Thanks

    A Soviet aircraft of the 1980s that is most famous for the amount of flares it carried? That would be the Su-25 of course, followed by the Su-17. Especially needed over Afghanistan. Any aircraft used over Afghanistan would have carried tons of flares - I have the Il-76 in mind.
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    Post  George1 on Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:16 am

    Different layout options for the future of the MiG-31. 70s.

    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts - Page 3 Dy8kL0nXQAAANUy
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:20 am

    Sadly a lot of westerners believe the weapons the Soviets introduce are simply copies of western systems and they don't develop anything themselves.

    Because of this some think there is no competition in weapons development and a design bureau is simply designated the task of making a particular platform... so for instance the reason the MiG-29 and Su-27 look similar is because they were planned from the start to be copy mixes of Hornet/Falcon/Eagle/Tomcat aircraft.

    The reality is of course there was plenty of competition for programmes in the Soviet Union... sometimes copies were included and sometimes copies were the only option.

    Their first air to air missiles were complex and not super effective... the AA-1 alkali still lives on in the form of the AS-7 and AS-10 and AS-12 air to surface missiles in the form of the Kh-23 and then the modular Kh-25 missile system.

    The first Soviet air to air missile needed a rear facing antenna to receive commands via simple datalink, so the rocket propulsion had to be moved from the rear to the sides like most ATGMs, and if you cracked open a missile it was a complex mixture of wiring and systems all mixed together.

    When they first got their hands on a Sidewinder they were shocked at how simple and basic it was... from front to rear it had sections... seeker in the nose, then the control surfaces and their drive mechanisms, then the warhead and guidance electronics and then the solid rocket motor and then the tail fins at the very rear.

    The didn't have time to absorb the concept of modular design and construction... it allows motor upgrades and seeker upgrades and changes in aerodynamics much easier than with their old model custom designed complex method... so rather than wait for the concept of modular simple design to flow through their design bureaus and wait for a brand new all Soviet weapon, they just took what was interesting from the US design.

    Soviet rocket motors were better so they used one of their own design and their seekers were better so they also used that, and of course they used their own warhead and fusing, but the layout and modularity of the design was copied, as was the gyros which were tiny in comparison to Soviet models and very simple but effective.

    The concept of modularity is what they really copied and took it rather further than the Americans ever did.... case in point the R-27 family of missiles is enormous and offers several types of motor and seeker with the same basic aerodynamics.

    They chose to copy then to get something totally radical and new into service quickly so it could be used, but replacement missiles based on the new design philosophy soon followed.

    Actually in competition for the replacement for the R-23/24 for the MiG-23 on the MiG-29 and Su-27, there was a Sparrow like missile with the same fin layout using similar systems and parts and offering the same performance. It failed miserably against the R-27 family, but they would have happily adopted it if it had outperformed the alternative.

    Of course everyone does that, but the west has the advantage of time... something might be in service in the Soviet Union for ten years before good pictures of it appear in the west... so when the BMP appeared and the west decided to start copying the idea of an IFV, the US introduced the Bradley and the UK introduced the Warrior... both basically copies of the BMP-2. The F-15 was needed urgently and was supposed to counter the misunderstood MiG-25 so to start with the copied the basic layout to start with. the list is actually rather long... auto grenade launchers, assault rifles, weapon families (ie rifle, LMG, assault rifle, SMG etc based on the same design...) And now it is designated marksmen rifles (SVD) and of course RPG launchers... of course the west tends to take it too far... with their DMRs expected to kill to 1,000m or something silly like that... and their RPGs looking like they were made by Mattel... for GI Joe...
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    Post  George1 on Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:49 am

    Some of the assets of the Soviet Air Force.

    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts - Page 3 D9QOFqlU8AAOX4j

    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts - Page 3 D9QOGojVAAAvSzM

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    Post  nastle77 on Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:41 pm

    George1 wrote:Some of the assets of the Soviet Air Force.

    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts - Page 3 D9QOFqlU8AAOX4j

    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts - Page 3 D9QOGojVAAAvSzM


    thank you so much
    can you please give me the source of these tables ?
    Also when it says 1988 or 1990 does that mean it shows the inventory at the start of 1988/1990 or end of 1988/1990?

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    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts - Page 3 Empty Mig-21 in reserve during the 1980s

    Post  nastle77 on Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:55 pm

    During the 80s most mig21 were phased out of frontline VVS PVO regiments but I read in a book by bill sweetman [ Wests modern fighters from 1984] that many hundreds of mig21 2nd and 3rd generatio were retained in the training , reserve squadrons and units throughout USSR
    Is that true ?
    I' mean it's often thought that Soviet rarely discarded obsolete equipment and many of the SM, SMT , PFM, M variants were only like 15 yrs old in 1985 and approx 2000 bis were being recently built so it makes sense they kept the older units mothballed.
    Does any one have more information on this ?
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    Post  nastle77 on Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:08 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Early F-16s did not have BVR capability and were designed as pure WVR fighters - weren't late model MiG-21s from 1970s (the MiG-21bis) comparable in performance to the F-16A? Asking this as a new aviation enthusiast...

    without help from F-15 and outnumbered the Falcon can be countered by mig-21bis
    e.g if there is a 3 to 1 superority in numbers in favor of MIg
    provided intel, C3 , pilot capability, AEW, tactical doctrine remains the same


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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:54 pm

    That is generally true. Soviet Union expected a massive war similar to WW2 and didn't want to be caught in first part of war with its pants down - especially since the war would have started directly at USSR first. So having a large arsenal of equipment ready at all times for conflict was generally the case even with older equipment (hence why there are tens of thousands of old T-55's that sat idle). It was modern Russia that opted for quality over quantity and is changing its entire doctrine.
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    Post  nastle77 on Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:15 am

    miketheterrible wrote:That is generally true. Soviet Union expected a massive war similar to WW2 and didn't want to be caught in first part of war with its pants down - especially since the war would have started directly at USSR first.  So having a large arsenal of equipment ready at all times for conflict was generally the case even with older equipment (hence why there are tens of thousands of old T-55's that sat idle).  It was modern Russia that opted for quality over quantity and is changing its entire doctrine.

    and ive heard the mig21 is rather simple to maintain and can do 2-3 sorties a day ?

    and atleast in close range and low level can give an F-4 or mirage a run for its money
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:26 am

    I have never really seen a detailed investigation into the performance of the SARH versions of the R-3 and R-13 missiles the MiG-21s carried, but then of course the domestic models should be better than the export versions used abroad...
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    Post  kvs on Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:26 am




    Documentary in Russian about Kuznetsov. You won't find anything like this in English. So apologies for the lack of translation.

    So the "Konkordski" flew for the first time 3 years ahead of the Concorde. Shows you the arrogance of western dick stroking
    ubermenschen. How do you rip off a design you fly first by several years? It must be like Russia "ripping off" the non-existent
    US hypersonic glider warheads. Westerners claim priority just because they dabble with something experimentally. So because
    the US did some hypersonic tests, it owns all the possible hypersonic implementations. If you think that is absurd, then look at
    the case of the vapid Theranos patents on solid state chemical measurement devices. Patent trolls are already suing companies
    who, unlike Theranos, have actually developed the technology.

    But to be a bit fair to the west, the Tu-144 was instigated by Khruschev once he heard about the Concorde project initiated in
    1962. But the technology was developed in the USSR to "mimic" the Concorde, so it is anything but a "rip off". And since it
    flew first, it was the winner of the competition. Self-asserted competition lovers in the west only like it when they win the race.

    Kuznetsov's legacy also includes the N-1 Moon rocket main engine. This engine was 25 years later still world class tech and deployed
    to other rockets. Even though the clowns in the Soviet government ordered them scrapped. From the documentary interview
    it comes out that the 4th N-1 launch failed because of foreign objects and the first stage worked. This is basically evidence of
    sabotage. The program was being sabotaged at ground level and by higher management. Four failures was hardly reason to
    erase the project (instead of going for a redesign). The R7 also failed 4 times. The one party system is what destroyed
    the USSR since the public had no way to clean house as the nomkenlatura decided that capitalist decadence was the way for them.
    But the USSR never got a chance to develop a pluralistic system because it was always under foreign attack and siege.

    Glushko was a royal piece of shit. He was the clown who wanted to destroy the legacy of the N-1 including the NK-33 masterpiece
    because it wasn't his personal project. This Ukr worm was already acting like a good little capitalist. Sad how people were shot
    for nothing during the 1930s and how fat maggots like Glushko could do whatever they wanted at great cost to the country later.
    Some kulak family sent to Siberia was never the sort of "threat" that scum like Glushko were. The reason this worm did not
    oversee the N-1 design was because he insisted on using hypergolic fuels which were toxic and a large rocket failure would
    seriously contaminate the whole cosmodrome. Kuznetsov was the reason that the USSR had a Moon rocket program at all
    as he was the only one brave enough to use kerosene and liquid oxygen as the fuel-oxidizer for the engines.

    The NK-33 was the direct tech precursor of the RD-170. The legacy of Kuznetsov in terms of turbo-prop, jet and rocket engines
    is singular. The vast majority of engine innovations of the post war USSR both civilian and military were tied to Kuznetsov. And he
    managed to achieve this with a relatively small design team.




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    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts - Page 3 Empty total number of Mig-23M/ML/MLD in service

    Post  nastle77 on Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:12 am

    I was trying to find out what was the total number of Mig-23M/ML/MLD in service with VVS and PVO by mid 1980s like 1985-1987 period

    please any suggestions are welcome

    thank you
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    Post  George1 on Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:51 am

    nastle77 wrote:I was trying to find out what was the total number of Mig-23M/ML/MLD in service with VVS and PVO by mid 1980s like 1985-1987 period

    please any suggestions are welcome

    thank you

    Look on post No65 of this topic

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