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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:10 pm

    medo wrote:
    Hole wrote:Only Tor-M2 (16) hast more missiles than Pantsir.

    The 35mm guns of Gepard lack a lot compared to the 57mm gun the russians brought back.

    No, arctic Pantsir-SA have 18 missiles.

    If a brigade consists of 6 pantsir then they can switch 1 or 2 for the artic version. They don't all need guns specially if they include the 57mm bmp3 based AA in the group. In this case none would need gun and they could have 6 artic pantsirs with 6 57mm bmp3 thus having more systems and greater engagement capability in time and in space as they can cover more space.
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    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:01 pm

    IDEX 2019: Russia unveils upgraded Pantsyr-S1M

    https://www.janes.com/article/86749/idex-2019-russia-unveils-upgraded-pantsyr-s1m

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 36 P1720710

    The new 57E6M-E missile for the Pantsyr-S1 and SM1 air defence systems (right) is seen next to the standard 57E6-E at IDEX 2019. (Nikolai Novichkov)



    Russia unveiled an upgraded variant of the Pantsyr-S1 air defence system at the IDEX show held in Abu Dhabi on 17–21 February.

    A source from the Instrument Design Bureau (KBP) told Jane’s that the Pantsir-S1M can use the new 57E6M-E surface-to-air missile (SAM), which can intercept targets flying at speeds of up to 1,000 m/s. It can engage targets at altitudes of 15–18,000 m and has a slant range of 1,200–30,000 m compared to the 57E6-E missile’s 15–15,000 m altitude and 1,200–20,000 m range.

    The reduction in the length of the missile has enabled a larger booster to be fitted that increases its speed from 1,300 m/s to 1,700 m/s. Nevertheless, the weight of the warhead, which is designed to destroy a target using fragmentation rods and missile debris, has grown from 20 kg to 25 kg. The overall weight of the new SAM has increased from 98 kg to 115 kg.

    The upgraded Pantsir-S1M has a multifunctional fire-control radar and an upgraded search radar, both fitted with phased antenna arrays. The L-band search radar detects and tracks up to 40 targets simultaneously, while the EHF fire-control radar can engage four targets simultaneously.
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    Post  dino00 on Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:07 pm

    Good post.
    30km range for a short Sam...
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    Post  hoom on Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:40 am

    L band?! Shocked Surely its S or X Suspect

    Bigger booster, thinner shorter terminal stage but with a bigger warhead, fascinating trade-off.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:13 am

    Normally it would be X band or Ku band search for accuracy and range, but they have been working hard on L band because it reveals very small targets and stealthy targets much better than the higher frequencies do... it is less effected (negatively) by the shape of the object.

    As it is a search radar it just needs to detect targets and threats rather than highly precisely track them, so it is generally better... as long as it is accurate enough to get sharper vision systems pointed at the target (ie tracking radar or EOs).

    So heavier warhead and better range... at 115kgs it is still a fairly light missile... it is only slightly heavier than the R-73 AAM.

    Edit... note the tracking radar is described as being EHF, which is basically MMW frequency radar, which has issues with moisture in the atmosphere but is a very short wavelength that should allow accurate tracking of even very small targets accurately... it is useful because it can track outgoing cannon shells and adjust fire in real time, but can also track missiles ingoing and outgoing to allow command signals to steer the missile to hit the threat accurately....
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    Post  marcellogo on Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:25 am

    GarryB wrote:Normally it would be X band or Ku band search for accuracy and range, but they have been working hard on L band because it reveals very small targets and stealthy targets much better than the higher frequencies do... it is less effected (negatively) by the shape of the object.

    As it is a search radar it just needs to detect targets and threats rather than highly precisely track them, so it is generally better... as long as it is accurate enough to get sharper vision systems pointed at the target (ie tracking radar or EOs).

    So heavier warhead and better range... at 115kgs it is still a fairly light missile... it is only slightly heavier than the R-73 AAM.

    Edit... note the tracking radar is described as being EHF, which is basically MMW frequency radar, which has issues with moisture in the atmosphere but is a very short wavelength that should allow accurate tracking of even very small targets accurately... it is useful because it can track outgoing cannon shells and adjust fire in real time, but can also track missiles ingoing and outgoing to allow command signals to steer the missile to hit the threat accurately....

    Surely is a great advancement, not just greater range and altitude but advanced radars specifically intended to deal with actual and perspective stand off ammunition and stealth targets.
    And this with still a light and cheap command guided missile, let's add that there are other TWO missiles in advanced state of development- a small one to fit a quad-pack into actual tubes-for dealing with mini-drones- and an autonomously guided one - more costly but able to directly engage stealth planes at a viable stand-off distance- so to eagerly see how the Pantsir is destined to become an ever greater asset of what actually is, obviously coupled with all the other AD systems actually deployed or -like the S-350- ready to production.

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:22 am


    Surely is a great advancement, not just greater range and altitude but advanced radars specifically intended to deal with actual and perspective stand off ammunition and stealth targets.

    And it is important to recognise ammunition can be stealthy as well.

    It is confirmation... that that two face search radar is an AESA and is L band... which clearly acts like a full two dimensional array of detection elements... compared with the L band AESA arrays seen previously in the leading edge of wings on fighter aircraft.

    MMW radar is excellent for high definition detail and precision, but not great for long range due to the fact that it is effected by moisture and atmospheric conditions... but L band radar should cut straight through all of that...

    And this with still a light and cheap command guided missile, let's add that there are other TWO missiles in advanced state of development- a small one to fit a quad-pack into actual tubes-for dealing with mini-drones- and an autonomously guided one

    Plus the drone model they were working on that could be used for recon or for target practise...

    The Hermes system of ground to ground and air to ground missiles is related directly to these missiles and could be used to further expand capabilities... where needed. Terminally guided missiles they include MMW radar guided, IIR/TV/Laser homing, as well as GLONASS and INS guided and presumably anti radiation models as well.

    There was a model of a Hermes launcher shown that looked like a Grad.... with 40 launch tubes ready to fire... even just with command guided missiles would be an excellent solution to a swarm attack... with four missiles per tube that is 160 missiles per vehicle... use three or four of them to cover the TEL vehicles while they are reloading their missiles...
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    Post  Hole on Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:35 am

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    24.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:28 pm

    Hole wrote:
    24.

    This thing could destroy 24 tanks from 30 km away. It can back t-90 which will be in def position and fix the enemy tanks while this thing destroys them.

    Only need laser guidance on the hermes and one or two Orlan-10 with a laser designator.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:08 pm

    There are also rumours about a radar or IIR in the missile which would make it fully fire and forget.

    Also the russian army wants to unify its anti-tank systems = network it just like air defence. This would mean stand-off systems like Hermes and vehicles with Krizanthema and Kornet, ATGM teams and maybe drones and robots with ATGM´s structured into a layered defence.

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 36 030610
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:40 am

    There are also rumours about a radar or IIR in the missile which would make it fully fire and forget.

    Two separate but related systems... Pantsir uses two stage missiles with a solid rocket booster and a command guided unpowered second stage that is directed by the launcher to hit the target.

    Hermes is also a two stage missile with a solid rocket booster but its second stage has terminal guidance and is primarily intended for ground targets but with options including MMW radar and IIR seekers could also be used against aerial targets... but because there is a terminal seeker it would be rather more expensive per missile than standard Pantsir which is a simple cheap command guided weapon.

    24.

    That is very much like the drawing I saw, but it had a full forty missile tubes ready to fire...
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    Post  Isos on Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:28 am


    That is very much like the drawing I saw, but it had a full forty missile tubes ready to fire...

    If it has a seperate radar truck line on the picture posted by Hole, then you can convert bm-21 grad system to carry the missiles. They have thousand not used for that in reserve.

    1 radar for 3 truck with 40 missiles each (120 missile in all) with 1 normal pantsir protecting the radar. And as it is seperated you can use biger and more powerfull radar so that you can guide your missiles from longer range and send the trucks with missile 20km away and create a big no fly zone.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:00 am

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:41 pm

    Some time ago there were info about Hermes-K/Hermes with 100km range. This nicely eliminates need to 152mm+ guns on ships BTW.
    It was on website of Tula KBP but disappeared... i wonder if this is under construction now.

    http://otvaga2004.ru/atrina/atrina-ships/korabelnyj-kompleks-germes-k/
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-49.html

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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:28 pm

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 36 000135
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    Still more expensive then a simple 152mm grenade.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:29 pm

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 36 000232
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:27 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Some time ago there were info about Hermes-K/Hermes  with 100km range. This nicely eliminates need to 152mm+ guns on ships BTW.
    It was on website of Tula KBP but disappeared... i wonder if this is under construction now.

    http://otvaga2004.ru/atrina/atrina-ships/korabelnyj-kompleks-germes-k/
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-49.html

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    Except that the 152mm gun would switch between artillery bombardment and air-defense on the fly. Back in the 1960's 'experts' claimed that missiles would completely eliminate the need for guns......as you could see that never happened.
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    Post  marcellogo on Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:16 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Some time ago there were info about Hermes-K/Hermes  with 100km range. This nicely eliminates need to 152mm+ guns on ships BTW.
    It was on website of Tula KBP but disappeared... i wonder if this is under construction now.

    http://otvaga2004.ru/atrina/atrina-ships/korabelnyj-kompleks-germes-k/
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-49.html

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    Except that the 152mm gun would switch between artillery bombardment and air-defense on the fly. Back in the 1960's 'experts' claimed that missiles would completely eliminate the need for guns......as you could see that never happened.

    And already exist ammo for standard naval guns that can reach same distances, the best use for Hermes would probably be the opposite one: coastal defence against enemy ships trying to support an amphibious landing.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:28 pm

    Hermes will have its niche. Pin-point strikes against valuable coastal targets. But for shore bombardement the good old grenade is still No. 1.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:01 am

    Some time ago there were info about Hermes-K/Hermes with 100km range. This nicely eliminates need to 152mm+ guns on ships BTW.
    It was on website of Tula KBP but disappeared... i wonder if this is under construction now.

    Yeah, that is just Hermes with its terminal guidance... except lofted on a ballistic path towards the target area.

    In terms of volume and area a Hermes missile at 110kgs will be rather bigger and take up more space than a 40kg 152mm guided shell and perhaps 20-30kgs of propellent to send it 60-70km.

    I would think they could make room for both systems as the Hermes could be used as a very long range CIWS to shoot down enemy anti ship missiles at extended ranges as well as hit ground targets.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:44 am

    Hole wrote:Hermes will have its niche. Pin-point strikes against valuable coastal targets. But for shore bombardement the good old grenade is still No. 1.

    unless we are talking about 30km shore bombardment.   70km ammo is not really cheaper then Hermes missile.







    GarryB wrote:
    Some time ago there were info about Hermes-K/Hermes with 100km range. This nicely eliminates need to 152mm+ guns on ships BTW.
    It was on website of Tula KBP but disappeared... i wonder if this is under construction now.

    Yeah, that is just Hermes with its terminal guidance... except lofted on a ballistic path towards the target area.

    In terms of volume and area a Hermes missile at 110kgs will be rather bigger and take up more space than a 40kg 152mm guided shell and perhaps 20-30kgs of propellent to send it 60-70km.

    I would think they could make room for both systems as the Hermes could be used as a very long range CIWS to shoot down enemy anti ship missiles at extended ranges as well as hit ground targets.



    i wouldnt bet on that.  Hermes =/= Pantsir AAM.   True Hermes missile will be definitely bigger then 152mm projectile (they wrote 3500mm) yet definitely smaller with launcher then then 152mm gun installation.

    Price? Ramjet 152km wont be cheap either same class Id say. Just Hermes is 2x range.  Last but not least it c an also work in salvos but 152mm cannot.


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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 36 Scale_1200
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:48 am

    I think it's totally relevant to post this here. Nit-wit-yahoo fanboys and the Likud-nik-poops were so overjoyed and circle-jerking themselves in to Nirvana about how they killed a non-operating Pantsir, they talk about how David's Sling can kill Iskander-M with high efficiency even though they never tested the system against it (comparable high efficiency to SPICE-2000 pgm Wink ). They also talk about how effective using $100k missiles on $200 rockets, but it seems like Iron Dome struggles against unguided rockets that miss 3/4ths of the time:

    The effectiveness of the "Iron Dome" of Israel questioned

    On March 25, three children and four adults were wounded in Israel as a result of a rocket attack on the village of Mishmeret located 34 km north of Tel Aviv. Early in the morning, an air-raid siren sounded in A-Sharon, but the Iron Dome missile defense system did not intercept the launched missile. A direct hit destroyed a residential building and damaged several cars.

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 36 1553532738_77

    According to preliminary data from the Israeli military, the rocket was fired by Hamas representatives from the Rafah region, located in the south of the Gaza Strip. What exactly was a rocket and for what reasons it calmly overcame more than 100 km over Israeli territory, is not specified.

    In connection with the rocket fire, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is on a visit to the United States, will fly to Israel ahead of schedule.

    This is the second shelling of Tel Aviv in the last month. Earlier, on March 14, two rockets were fired from Gaza in the direction of Tel Aviv. The “Iron Dome” also failed to intercept targets.

    There is a question about the effectiveness of the “Iron Dome” missile defense system .(Iron Dome): why did she not intercept these missiles? Although Israel has always stated that the situation is completely controlled by the air defense system.

    The main weapon of Hamas were Qassam rockets , which were unguided rockets. They were made in an artisanal way and had a primitive design in the form of a simple pipe with a warhead and engine. Start was made from the simplest launchers almost "by eye". About three-quarters of these missiles are not able to accurately hit even a very large target.

    The air defense system, when capturing a target, calculates the trajectory of the missile’s flight and intercepts it (now, as it turns out, does not intercept) only if it threatens populated areas. Therefore, a significant part of the missiles was simply accompanied, and the effectiveness of the “Iron Dome” system under such conditions was very high.

    But recent events show that the missile potentials of various resistance movements have expanded significantly, and even with their primitive shelling they question the capabilities of the Iron Dome.. This is a bad messenger for the defense of Israel in the event of a serious military conflict. It also calls into question the entire Israeli air defense system, which in recent years has been declared multistage and very effective. But Hamas missiles have become the “tool” that is already calling into question this effectiveness. A separate question is on the percentage of interception systems Iron Dome.

    By the way:

    It is worth adding that just a few minutes ago, a message came from the United States that Donald Trump recognized the Golan Heights as part of Israel. At the time of signing the document was attended by the head of the Israeli Cabinet Benjamin Netanyahu.

    https://topwar.ru/155969-izrailskij-zheleznyj-kupol-snova-ne-srabotal.html
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    Post  Hole on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:49 am

    So this system isn´t even usefull against rockets fired in pairs. Now imagine a battery of Tornado-G´s firing a volley... Surprised
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:35 pm

    Well, we learned Israeli guided munitions suck, their EW systems didn't work, and iron done sucks.

    They can wave their dicks around all they want but a kill against a stationary Pantsir not in use, isn't something to be proud of tbh.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:32 am

    DAT blue throne-room and dumpster - epic lol1 lol1 lol1

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