Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

eridan wrote:http://tass.com/defense/974464

So official statement was 19 battalions of pantsir-s handed over in last five years. How many batteries is that? Or does battalion here equals a battery? How many vehicles per battery? 38 batteries? 160 vehicles?

From memory each Divizion (Batalion) has 2 batteries of 3 vehicles ...so 6 in total...x19 = 114

Several prototypes of the "Pantsir -SM" i are already manufactured

Experimental design work on the prospective anti-aircraft missile and gun system "Pantsir-SM" will be completed in 2019, several prototypes have already been manufactured and tested.

"We are running out of development work, if I'm not mistaken, in 2019. Already several samples of the "Pantsir-SM" complex have been manufactured, and tests are underway, "said Alexander Denisov, general director of Holding High-Precision Complexes.

The head of "High-Precision Complexes" made his statement at the Dubai Airshow-2017 airshow, which takes place in the UAE.

Earlier, the portal iz.ru reported, during the international air show in Dubai, the head of the holding "Russian Helicopters" Andrei Boginsky reported that in early 2018, Russia and India will sign an agreement for the delivery of 200 Ka-226 helicopters.

Just a quick question which units/systems is pantsir replacing? I presume Sa-9 first then onto Sa-13 and Zsu 23-4.

d_taddei2 wrote:Just a quick question which units/systems is pantsir replacing?  I presume Sa-9 first then onto Sa-13 and Zsu 23-4.

SA-9 is gone and the Sosna will replace the SA-13. https://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_missile_system_vehicle_uk/sosna_short-range_air_defense_missile_system_technical_data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video_11312155.html

The Pantsir doesn't replace anything directly. It is a point defense system for the Air Defense forces. At some point a version mounted on a tank platform will replace the 2S6M and the few ZSU 23-4 that are still active in the ground forces.

franco wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:Just a quick question which units/systems is pantsir replacing?  I presume Sa-9 first then onto Sa-13 and Zsu 23-4.

SA-9 is gone and the Sosna will replace the SA-13.  https://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_missile_system_vehicle_uk/sosna_short-range_air_defense_missile_system_technical_data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video_11312155.html

The Pantsir doesn't replace anything directly. It is a point defense system for the Air Defense forces. At some point a version mounted on a tank platform will replace the 2S6M and the few ZSU 23-4 that are still active in the ground forces.  

Has any Sonsa been purchased?  Morfrei will replace? As I thought Morfrei was replacing some Sa-13 and sa-8. Wouldn't it make sense that when 2s6 is being replaced that the 2S6M replace the Sa-9/Sa-13/Sa-8?? It's a sonsa with added guns

d_taddei2 wrote:
Has any Sonsa been purchased?  Morfrei will replace? As I thought Morfrei was replacing some Sa-13 and sa-8. Wouldn't it make sense that when 2s6 is being replaced that the 2S6M replace the Sa-9/Sa-13/Sa-8?? It's a sonsa with added guns

Pantsir is a great mystery to me too Currently is to protest mechanized units like Tunguska and protect AAd systems (S-400/S-300) ir stationary targets. Whether Pantasir-SM is already a different class...

I always thought that the zsu 23-4 upgraded with manpads was still a capable piece of equipment I suppose it was the platform, light turret armour and radar that puts it down. But easily fixed. An improved turret and radar and mounting on T-72, Bmp, MT-LB, BTR,  or Typhoon (6x6 /8x8) and problem solved of course it's unlikely Russia would do it for its own forces but export maybe. Even the upgraded zu -23-2 with manpad and radar could be mounted on BMD,  tigr, volk,  Bpm -97, bulat, vodnik, Typhoon 4x4, or truck. But then you could mount on same platforms strelets and Sonsa(larger platforms)

1. Sosna has not been purchased yet. Just finishing testing & development. Sosna is a forward Air Defense system designed to go onto the battlefield.
2. Tor is replacing the SA-8 and again is a forward AD system.
3. Morfrei like the Pantsir is a rear point air defense system. Neither are designed to operate on the battlefield.

franco wrote:1. Sosna has not been purchased yet. Just finishing testing & development. Sosna is a forward Air Defense system designed to go onto the battlefield.
2. Tor is replacing the SA-8 and again is a forward AD system.
3. Morfrei like the Pantsir is a rear point air defense system. Neither are designed to operate on the battlefield.

But isn't a sonsa basically a Tungkuska without the guns??? So going back to my point just replace sa-13 with 2s6 when pantsir replaces 2s6

This is a Russian Air Force threatd and Pantsir is an Air Force/ADF system.

The Army has two types of air defence vehicles in a Division.... missile and gun/missile combined systems.

In the 1970s the air defence missile vehicle was the SA-8, and the missile and gun platforms were the SA-9 that was replaced by the SA-13 and the Shilka.

The TOR system replaced the OSA in the role of missile defence, while the Tunguska combined the missiles and guns to replace the SA-13 and the ZSU-23-4.

TOR is very expensive but totally better than OSA in every regard except price.

A Tunguska vehicle is expensive too but is cheaper than an SA-13 AND a ZSU-23-4 system on two different chassis.

The Pantsir is a shelterised version of the Tunguska for the Air Forces.

Pantsir and TOR will protect larger SAMs on land and likely at sea but in the Army the AD force looks like this:

Verba/Igla-S for MANPADS, Tunguska, TOR, BUK, S-300V4.

The Air Force is different in that it has MANPADS too, but no Tunguska....
they will be:

Verba/Igla-S, Pantsir, TOR, S-350, S-400, soon S-500.

Pantsir-SM would fit between the latest model TOR and S-350...

SOSNA is a low cost rather capable missile... it is a two stage missile like the Pantsir and Tunguska missile but is a laser beam rider like a Kornet missile and has a range of 10km.

Pantsir on the other hand has potentially much greater range and is command guided...

GarryB wrote:This is a Russian Air Force threatd and Pantsir is an Air Force/ADF system.

The Army has two types of air defence vehicles in a Division.... missile and gun/missile combined systems.

In the 1970s the air defence missile vehicle was the SA-8, and the missile and gun platforms were the SA-9 that was replaced by the SA-13 and the Shilka.

The TOR system replaced the OSA in the role of missile defence, while the Tunguska combined the missiles and guns to replace the SA-13 and the ZSU-23-4.

TOR is very expensive but totally better than OSA in every regard except price.

A Tunguska vehicle is expensive too but is cheaper than an SA-13 AND a ZSU-23-4 system on two different chassis.

The Pantsir is a shelterised version of the Tunguska for the Air Forces.

Pantsir and TOR will protect larger SAMs on land and likely at sea but in the Army the AD force looks like this:

Verba/Igla-S for MANPADS, Tunguska, TOR, BUK, S-300V4.

The Air Force is different in that it has MANPADS too, but no Tunguska....
they will be:

Verba/Igla-S, Pantsir, TOR, S-350, S-400, soon S-500.

Pantsir-SM would fit between the latest model TOR and S-350...

SOSNA is a low cost rather capable missile... it is a two stage missile like the Pantsir and Tunguska missile but is a laser beam rider like a Kornet missile and has a range of 10km.

Pantsir on the other hand has potentially much greater range and is command guided...

Thanks the info and breakdown. So as for morfrei??? As it seems Tor and buk will be around for sometime. Will Morfrei replace what's left of sa-13?

Sosna is SA-13 Strela-10 replacement. It is VSHORAD system and is bewtween MANPAD and SHORAD. It have a little longer range than MANPAD and heavier warhead.

medo wrote:Sosna is SA-13 Strela-10 replacement. It is VSHORAD system and is bewtween MANPAD and SHORAD. It have a little longer range than MANPAD and heavier warhead.

So what's morfrei replacing? And range some sources say 5km and some 10km

Nothing, Morphei is a new C-RAM complex.

d_taddei2 wrote:

medo wrote:Sosna is SA-13 Strela-10 replacement. It is VSHORAD system and is bewtween MANPAD and SHORAD. It have a little longer range than MANPAD and heavier warhead.

So what's morfrei replacing? And range some sources say 5km and some 10km

Nothing, it's a new system. Point defense for strategic areas to shoot down cruise missiles, etc before they hit.

It seems to be a short range fast reaction IIR guided missile with lock on after launch capability.

This capability should enable it to be carried inside weapons bays on fighters and bombers and be launched in a specific direction to look for its target.

I speculate that Pantsyr SM antenna might be a "hybrid" between AESA and PESA. With following architecture

Interesting theory
I like it: Fits the available evidence of being claimed as an AESA yet having an external horn, provides useful extra capability.

The simple explanation would be that its just a PESA, cheaper than an AESA for the needed power to reach 40km range & AESA claim was a misunderstanding/mistranslation.


The other day Syrian (export) Pantsir/s are reported to have intercepted 4 out of 6 Israeli missiles launched at a base near Damascus.

hoom wrote:

I speculate that Pantsyr SM antenna might be a "hybrid" between AESA and PESA. With following architecture

Interesting theory  
I like it: Fits the available evidence of being claimed as an AESA yet having an external horn, provides useful extra capability.

The simple explanation would be that its just a PESA, cheaper than an AESA for the needed power to reach 40km range & AESA claim was a misunderstanding/mistranslation.


The other day Syrian (export) Pantsir/s are reported to have intercepted 4 out of 6 Israeli missiles launched at a base near Damascus.

Its actually an AESA radar regardless what you may think. This was confirmed even in various documents seen during the MAKS and what not.

Hi, I want to ask about the firing accuracy of 2A38M gun. It is twin barrel gun and 2 barrels are very closed so when firing, do the ballistic of projectiles be effected by shock waves from the other side barrel? Thank you.

For the complex "Pantsir" will develop hypersonic rockets

http://www.interfax.ru/russia/602882

Moscow. March 8. INTERFAX.RU - The range of the Pantsir anti-aircraft missile system can increase to 60 km thanks to the use of hypersonic missiles, a source in the defense industry complex told Interfax.

"At the moment, work is underway to create hypersonic missiles for" Shell ", it is planned to bring the range of the complex to 50-60 kilometers," the source said.

The general director of holding "High-Precision Complexes" Alexander Denisov in 2013 reported that the holding "works, including hypersound." "( Works - IF ) are quite successful," - he said.

At the moment the range of the complex is about 20 km. According to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, since 2018 the upgraded version of the complex, "Pantsir-SM", should begin to enter the troops. Thanks to the new sighting locator, the range of detection and guidance of missiles is 40 km.

Austin wrote:For the complex "Pantsir" will develop hypersonic rockets

http://www.interfax.ru/russia/602882

Moscow. March 8. INTERFAX.RU - The range of the Pantsir anti-aircraft missile system can increase to 60 km thanks to the use of hypersonic missiles, a source in the defense industry complex told Interfax.

"At the moment, work is underway to create hypersonic missiles for" Shell ", it is planned to bring the range of the complex to 50-60 kilometers," the source said.

Wow that's whoopong, I wonder if for navalized Pantsir this would work too.

Looks like Russias short range SAMs are begining to outrange western mid range missiles the us army will be.... oh wait they have no mid range SAMs nor do they have any close range ones

Anyway it seems the Pantsir will be quite the nightmare for nato pilots.

I wonder if they will use this new tech on the S-400 and S-500.

The-thing-next-door wrote:Looks like Russias short range SAMs are begining to outrange western mid range missiles the us army will be.... oh wait they have no mid range SAMs nor do they have any close range ones

Anyway it seems the Pantsir will be quite the nightmare for nato pilots.

I wonder if they will use this new tech on the S-400 and S-500.

150 pantsirs every where in a small country backed by long range radars and some s-400 would deny any attack.

Hi, I want to ask about the firing accuracy of 2A38M gun. It is twin barrel gun and 2 barrels are very closed so when firing, do the ballistic of projectiles be effected by shock waves from the other side barrel? Thank you.

First of all each twin barrel gun does not fire both barrels at the same time... the firing of one ejects the empty shell and loads a fresh round in the other barrel and then the round is fired to cycle the other barrel...

The accuracy required is not as high as you actually might think.

A rifle is not used for small fast moving targets... for such targets a shotgun is generally used because between the time you fire the shot and when the projectiles impact the target area the target could have sped up, or slowed down, or turned left or right etc etc.

That means it is actually better to have a scatter of projectiles around the point of aim so that if the target performs a manouver after the rounds are fired (when changes to the aim are meaningless) and when the rounds arrive on target.

The main reason they are looking at 57mm shells is because even with a fairly large number of shots fired a small target can still fly through the rounds at range.

Airburst round that explode when they get to the distance to the target on the other hand greatly increase the chance of hits and with small targets being rather more fragile those hits will be more effective than total misses.

Looks like Russias short range SAMs are begining to outrange western mid range missiles the us army will be.... oh wait they have no mid range SAMs nor do they have any close range ones

The US Army has Stingers and Chapparal (ground launched sidewinders) and relies totally on its air force or navy for air support.

Hypersonic missiles with 60km range would be pretty interesting... even just with command guidance that would be interesting but with the new HERMES range of missiles having terminal guidance I would think a few with ARH and another few with ARM guidance and of course the IIR guided ones the Russian ground forces and air defence units will be very potently armed.

I don't see why upgrades to the missiles and systems could not be applied to Army units vehicles and naval forces... especially the latter with the 4 warhead anti drone missiles... they would be useful against a mass attack of subsonic anti ship missiles...