Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+79
marcellogo
BenVaserlan
Hole
ALAMO
Mir
lyle6
william.boutros
TMA1
sepheronx
higurashihougi
kvs
PhSt
The-thing-next-door
limb
Arrow
Kiko
Begome
RTN
Podlodka77
diabetus
lancelot
caveat emptor
Sujoy
11E
Broski
Russian_Patriot_
The_Observer
kopyo-21
xeno
calripson
Interlinked
Makarov420
0nillie0
Peŕrier
Azi
SeigSoloyvov
AlfaT8
Isos
hoom
galicije83
T-47
JohninMK
Project Canada
Tingsay
Benya
PapaDragon
KiloGolf
KoTeMoRe
Big_Gazza
VladimirSahin
airstrike
magnumcromagnon
Viktor
miketheterrible
MMBR
Book.
franco
cracker
Cyberspec
eehnie
OminousSpudd
Kyo
Werewolf
im42
Mike E
GuyFromSerbia
Asf
KomissarBojanchev
d_taddei2
runaway
a89
collegeboy16
Regular
Stealthflanker
medo
flamming_python
TR1
George1
GarryB
83 posters

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39437
    Points : 39935
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:04 am

    Sending T-80UD from the storage means one thing only - they will refurbish them, too.
    As a whole fleet of 80UD left in Russia was about 200 pcs, I hardly believe they would worry about such a homeopathic number. But that would mean that they are taking seriously the 6TD-1 restoration, and that is only a step from increasing the potential to rebuild ... T-64.
    This decision would increase the reserves of tanks to be produced ... by some 30%. We talk a few thousand pieces.

    In the link Arrow posted they mentioned the T-80UD being sent for upgrades, but as you mention they didn't get a lot of those, which suggests either they are going to put gas turbines in them or they have perhaps developed a diesel engine for replacement of the engine in the T-80UD, which has implications.

    If they have a new diesel engine for upgrades they can put into T-80UDs then perhaps they can also put those engines in older model vehicles to replace the gas turbines.

    Equally new production aircraft turbines the Russians have made have been better than the engines they received from Ukraine which suggests better quality materials and improved designs to improve performance and power and efficiency.

    So will these vehicles get GTs or improved Russian made diesels?

    BenVaserlan likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39437
    Points : 39935
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:08 am

    are the same, just as the small parts that need
    replacement the most, like all those screws and bolts that keep the tanks together.

    Are you guys suggesting they created their own unique bolts and screws and nuts for this tank?

    Really?

    How stupid of them.

    Considering they used cheap truck engines to power their BTRs and went to the trouble of using two in the BTR-60 to give it enough power, creating unique fasteners sounds a bit out of character.

    They would be metric so I would understand western bolts and screws not being compatible at the time...

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2775
    Points : 2773
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  lancelot Sat Sep 16, 2023 6:47 am

    The Msta artillery uses a hybrid chassis. It uses the T-72 powertrain including engine, but the torsion bar suspension and the road wheels are the same as in the T-80. However the hull has the same layout as in the T-72. I assume there would be issues trying to fit a T-72 diesel engine into the engine compartment of a real T-80.

    BenVaserlan likes this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6975
    Points : 7067
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  ALAMO Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:21 am

    GarryB wrote:
    In the link Arrow posted they mentioned the T-80UD being sent for upgrades, but as you mention they didn't get a lot of those, which suggests either they are going to put gas turbines in them or they have perhaps developed a diesel engine for replacement of the engine in the T-80UD, which has implications.
    If they have a new diesel engine for upgrades they can put into T-80UDs then perhaps they can also put those engines in older model vehicles to replace the gas turbines.
    Equally new production aircraft turbines the Russians have made have been better than the engines they received from Ukraine which suggests better quality materials and improved designs to improve performance and power and efficiency.
    So will these vehicles get GTs or improved Russian made diesels?

    Modernization of 80UD can be extended to 80U, which is in storage/in line in much more decent numbers, but we are still not talking about thousands but some 1k of both.
    Yet it is a very big reservoir anyway.
    Russkie reestablished production for GTD turbines, that is why a whole story of T-80 happened.
    But I won't dare to guess if they are to replace the engines for turbines, diesel or refurbish existing 6TD. Every option has pros and cons scratch
    The end effect should be applicable to T-64 fleet, that would make sense.

    GarryB, flamming_python, BenVaserlan and Broski like this post

    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 2247
    Points : 2241
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  lyle6 Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:09 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    Do you see my conclusions? They will end up with existing production lines, that will have to be kept alive for the next 30 years. Those newly refurbished tanks will stay in ranks till the 2050s.
    That's perfectly fine. NATO's armored forces will have to rely on modernized late cold war models until the 2050s as well.

    Unfortunately for them, they don't have anything like the T-14 Armata that can serve as the tip of the spear - much like how the German Tigers were for the weaker Panzers, and inflict outsized damage that way despite their relative scarcity.

    Realistically NATO will take until the 40s until they can get an MBT comparable to the T-14 Armata - that's if they don't collapse along the way. Razz

    GarryB, zardof, Hole, BenVaserlan and Broski like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6975
    Points : 7067
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  ALAMO Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:16 pm

    Yes, I know it is perfectly fine - I was rather addressing the fact that they will need to keep those few thousand tanks running for the next 30 years. If so, there is no technical problems with making new tanks from scratch. It is only a matter of decision, nothing else.

    GarryB likes this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 10953
    Points : 10933
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Hole Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:15 pm

    Are you guys suggesting they created their own unique bolts and screws and nuts for this tank?
    The exact opposite (the full 360° -  lol1).
    I pointed out that most issues with maintenance and logistics have to do with the small stuff
    and that they are (mostly) the same on all russian tank models.

    GarryB and flamming_python like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6975
    Points : 7067
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  ALAMO Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:21 pm

    Hole wrote:
    The exact opposite (the full 360° -  lol1).

    Good job bro!
    You are qualified as the next German MFA!
    Laughing Laughing

    GarryB likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39437
    Points : 39935
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:30 pm

    The full Europe politician 720 degree turn?

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15317
    Points : 15454
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  kvs Sat Sep 16, 2023 5:32 pm

    So there is basically no reason to make new T-80s. If they want the gas turbine engine, then modify the T-90.

    Something does not add up in this story. Rebuilding the park of existing T-80s makes sense, but all new production does not.
    As for logistics, servicing more than one type of tank is not such a big deal. They have to haul them to the rear anyway.
    A war with NATzO will escalate to nuclear really fast, so worrying about field replacement of parts is a misguided. I do not
    think Russia is planning on operating T-80s and T-90s in western U-rope.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, Mir, Broski and jon_deluxe like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39437
    Points : 39935
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:01 am

    So there is basically no reason to make new T-80s. If they want the gas turbine engine, then modify the T-90.

    We might be missing something though.... and I would think if they do want a gas turbine engine tank for the future then a T-14 version makes more sense... I would expect rather more room for a GT.

    On the T-14 thread the video that was posted recently that mentioned minor problems with the engine that have now been sorted out, also mentioned 8 forward gears and 8 reverse gears so going backwards shouldn't be a huge problem... of course going backwards fast is not easy or very safe but the internet trolls have moaned and complained so it has become a thing.

    kvs, BenVaserlan and jon_deluxe like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6975
    Points : 7067
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  ALAMO Sun Sep 24, 2023 9:23 am

    New episode of Combat Approved.
    About GTD turbines of T-80.
    This hype must have a second meaning.



    Long story short, they reopened production line for brand new turbines. Just as I thought.

    By 2025, a new GTD-1500 with 1500HP should be ready.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, Hole, BenVaserlan, lyle6, lancelot and Mir like this post

    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 2247
    Points : 2241
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  lyle6 Sun Sep 24, 2023 12:16 pm

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 3209vz

    BenVaserlan likes this post

    George1
    George1


    Posts : 18372
    Points : 18869
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  George1 Tue Sep 26, 2023 1:31 pm

    ALAMO, Hole and BenVaserlan like this post

    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door


    Posts : 1317
    Points : 1373
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Uranus

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:31 pm

    I wonder it the new T-80s will have the T-14's gun and a bustle autoloader for the APFSDS rounds like the proposed T-80 upgrade with the 152mm.
    galicije83
    galicije83


    Posts : 207
    Points : 209
    Join date : 2015-04-30
    Age : 44
    Location : Serbia

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  galicije83 Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:08 pm

    This pictures are from this year so maybe t80 will get burlak turretThe T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Burlak%20Tank
    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 FtxZN_sXsAM0wemThe T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 FtxZN_uWYAMrgB7

    This will be right direction for modernized and uograded T80tank for 21st century...similar to the t90m...

    The-thing-next-door and BenVaserlan like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39437
    Points : 39935
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:40 am

    Except the Burlak (T-72/90) and the Black Eagle(T-80) turrets were rejected because the ammo was too exposed to enemy fire and would be too vulnerable to being taken out.

    The turret bustle is exposed to three sides while the heavy armour only protects the direction the gun is pointed in.

    I had long chats on another Blog about this... if they updated the ammo so that the bustle could be used for long rod penetrator rounds in sabots and no extra propellant, and the propellant could be in liquid form preferably binary or ternary and only mixed in the chamber just before being perhaps microwaved as a catalyst and then fired then you could store one component in the turret rear and one component in the hull and not mix them till they are in the chamber ready to fire, which means any enemy fire hitting the ammo in the bustle or underfloor loader will not ignite propellant...

    The turret bustle would be ideal for long rod penetrators and the odd missile round and straight rammed into the chamber would be a fast uncomplicated loading procedure, while HE rounds and HEAT rounds can be shorter and loaded in an autoloader under the crew compartment.

    The propellant is split into two components so it does not burn very readily and needs to be mixed and microwaved before it will function as propellant... making storage safe.

    BenVaserlan and jon_deluxe like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6975
    Points : 7067
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  ALAMO Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:11 am

    ... and that issue gets more and more important, as we see a changing tide on the battlefield. Now it is a small FPV drone that is the main threat to the heavy armor. Such a big ammo rack can't be properly secured, and creates a huge target from FOUR directions.
    It is quite obvious that it won't be the direction of development, considering the situation.

    GarryB, flamming_python, kvs, Hole, BenVaserlan, lyle6, Broski and jon_deluxe like this post

    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 2247
    Points : 2241
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  lyle6 Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:46 am

    The bustle ammo stowage will not survive a battlefield filled with swarms of FPV drones, loitering munitions, laser guided shells, cluster AT munitions and other top attack regulars. Let it go.

    And yes, NATO went all in on this particular design element and yes, their tanks are fucked. Razz

    GarryB, flamming_python, kvs, Hole, Broski and jon_deluxe like this post

    BenVaserlan dislikes this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6975
    Points : 7067
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  ALAMO Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:02 am

    Currently, only T-14 construction provides some degree of safety against this type of threat. Yet it need to be supplemented with additional coverage and active jammers assisting hard kill kit anyway.
    Even Leclerce and eastern tanks like Korean and Japanese will suffer the same disadvantages made of exposing weak parts.

    flamming_python and jon_deluxe like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2775
    Points : 2773
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  lancelot Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:54 am

    If the whole deal about the T-80 is the gas turbine being more suitable for the Arctic, why not just make a 1500hp gas turbine and put it in T-14 variants for the Arctic?

    BenVaserlan likes this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6975
    Points : 7067
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  ALAMO Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:12 pm

    They will make a 1500hp turbine in around a year.
    Still, I guess that the storage is an answer, and the only one.
    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 2247
    Points : 2241
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  lyle6 Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:33 pm

    ALAMO wrote:Currently, only T-14 construction provides some degree of safety against this type of threat. Yet it need to be supplemented with additional coverage and active jammers assisting hard kill kit anyway.
    The robotic turret is also the only practical way you can physically keep up with the ever increasing ballistic requirements against horizontal threats posed by subcaliber shells and shaped charge missiles represented by the 3BM69/70 and 9M133M-2 respectively. The level of overmatch is simply insurmountable with no more room left for further add-ons without saying kaput to logistics.

    A hardkill APS is not a substitute for a complex multilayer armor either, as it can be bypassed or outright destroyed with concentrated fire. And if you're going to rely on an APS anyway a robotic turret has all the prime real estate you need to integrate a higher density of sensors and effectors.

    ALAMO wrote:
    Even Leclerce and eastern tanks like Korean and Japanese will suffer the same disadvantages made of exposing weak parts.
    These are all the same picture.

    lancelot wrote:If the whole deal about the T-80 is the gas turbine being more suitable for the Arctic, why not just make a 1500hp gas turbine and put it in T-14 variants for the Arctic?
    What makes you say they aren't?

    kvs, Hole, BenVaserlan and jon_deluxe like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39437
    Points : 39935
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:05 pm

    If the whole deal about the T-80 is the gas turbine being more suitable for the Arctic, why not just make a 1500hp gas turbine and put it in T-14 variants for the Arctic?

    The more powerful the engine the more fuel it burns.

    Fuel consumption is based on horse power so a 1,500hp engine running at full power burns double the fuel of a 750hp engine with the same fuel burn rate.

    The T-14 already has a 1,500hp diesel engine that will probably be running at 1,800hp pretty soon.

    The T-14 is intended for urban warfare or against enemies with excellent anti armour systems so urban areas and heavily wooded areas would be the places they would be used the most so Kurganets and the DT-30 type vehicle families would be the vehicles used in the arctic the most.

    BenVaserlan likes this post

    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door


    Posts : 1317
    Points : 1373
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Uranus

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  The-thing-next-door Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:14 pm

    What I was suggesting is a small, secondary autoloader in the bustle for kinetic rounds only.

    Need I remind everyone that the T-90M has bustle stowage often depicted as having HE and HEAT rounds stowed in it.

    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Scale_1200

    The Burlak is no worse than this, it is infact superior as it's bustle stowage is part of the autoloader.

    If they are going to produce a new T-80, they must consider that it will need to be able to keep up with firepower requirements and that means it needs to be able to accommodate longer projectiles. Unfortunately the only way to do this outside of a complete redesign of the hull is with a bustle autoloader.

    BenVaserlan likes this post


    Sponsored content


    The T-80s future in the Russian Army - Page 20 Empty Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Jun 24, 2024 7:42 am