BMPT "Terminator"

The Object 781 is in many ways superior in firepower and overall design to the BMPT designed by UKBTM, which is basically the present day BMPT.  It is really an impressive machine at the core.

The BMPT version that has recently been adopted in limited numbers simply does not match it in terms of raw firepower at least.
Protection wise, i would like to see some more internal footage of the current BMPT before passing judgment. Since it is likely to be featured in the next Victory Parade, hopefully we will get some in depth footage soon.

Like GarryB, my main beef with the current version is that they went with dual 2A42's, even tho they offer 0 surplus value compared to a single 2A42 with dual feed capability. As far as i have been able to figure out (and i really hope somebody can correct me on this, i really do), the 2A42's are currently both single fed, and use different types of ammo by default. At range, it is not practical to fire both weapons at the same target, as the different ammo types will have differing ballistics. So you can really only use one weapon for one target, unless you use the same ammo in both guns. But then you may not have the right round for the right target available when it counts...

The double 2A42 to me is basically an expensive publicity stunt to make the vehicle look more badass, unless somebody can give me some references that show both guns are actually capable of dual feeding.
Even if that is possible, the fact remains that currently the BMPT can only engage 2 sectors simultaneously. Has the battlefield changed that much since Chechnya, that this is no longer an issue?

These are problems that did not exist for Object 781, which additionally could engage 2 separate targets simultaneously with its 30mm's , with select feed capability (!!!)...

That is correct the 2A42 gun on the current BMPT is actually single feeding and 2 guns fire in turn instead fire simultaneously. 2 guns with single feeding in reality are as powerfull as 1 gun with dual feeding.

I think they should consider to replace 2a42 guns by 2a72 guns that is smaller and mor compact to reserve more space for 2 belted ammunitions of dual feeding being set up. The ROF of 2 2A72 gun are totally 660-900 rpm and little bit faster than 1 2A42 gun does (550-800 rpm) while better gun's survivability. 2 gun firing at the same time also cause no spinning on the turret so the firing accuracy is improved.

The rear PKT 7.62mm gun turret of BMPT object 781
https://topwar.ru/120167-v-rossii-vosstanovyat-dlya-muzeya-obekt-787-gadyuku.html

PS: I wonder why they have not recovered the BMPT object 782 and displayed it in house like they do with the object 781?

Hi Garry,

Looking at this photo, I suspect the seating layout should be in 4 layers. The driver seats on the first, 2 AGL/PKT gunners and commander seat on the second, 2 2A72 gunners seat on the third and the rear PKT machine gunner seats on the last.

GarryB wrote:

commonality and reliability and cost.

That is probably the best description of the BMPT i have read so far.

I cant help but wonder what could be, if they looked at some of the cannons in use with the Air Force. IMHO there is much potential there for such a type of vehicle  :

- compact weapons = easier to integrate multiple weapons = engage more threats simultaneously. More suitable for engaging at higher elevations also due to smaller dimensions.
- high volume of fire = longer combat endurance, better suppression against infantry, more effective against air targets such as UAV's or loitering munitions.

It can be noted that high rate of fire weapons, though typically fired in bursts, are probably more prone to malfunctions during prolonged usage....

IMHO : If they are going to build many BMPT's, than the vehicle as it is now makes perfect sense. If they are going to use only limited numbers, i feel they could have gone a different path.
On the other hand, with the Armata family around the corner, i don't see that much future for the current BMPT, and it probably does not make much sense to spend a lot of money or complicate logistics on a limited number of vehicles
either.

Looking at the image below, it would be logical to develop armement modules which are placed at the location of the ATGM launchers. Probably we will see Kornet Anti tank modules instead of ATAKA

The Army rejects Air Force weapons, because they are more complex. The YakB-12,7 was quiet unreliabale in Afghanistan. That´s why the Mi-28 and Ka-52 use Army weapons.

Seems approx. 5 BMPT armored fighting vehicles were loaded onto flatcars and dispatched for transfer to the Russian MoD yesterday (28.03.18)

https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/979309165536522241

BMPT during Alabino rehearsal:Most prob.from 28.3.18 dispatched batch,now w/ add-on armour & 4x Ataka T(9M120)

BMPT Tank Support Vehicles at the rehearsal of the Victory Day Parade in Alabino

April 6, 2018 in the Moscow region near Alabino training military parade of Victory, which will be held May 9, 2018 on Red Square in Moscow. Among other things, the first military equipment for the BMPT tanks supported by the Russian Ministry of Defense took part in the training.



It should be reminded that on August 24, 2017, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the Scientific Production Corporation Uralvagonzavod JSC signed a contract for the delivery of 12 BMPT vehicles during the Third International Military Technical Forum "Army-2017" in 2018. The first manufactured under this contract The BMPT was demonstrated by NPK Uralvagonzavod in March 2018.





https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3150619.html

FFS; will they stop bringing new systems out on the basis of legacy platforms such as the T-72 chassis?

flamming_python wrote:FFS; will they stop bringing new systems out on the basis of legacy platforms such as the T-72 chassis?

Yes, they should use the T-90 chassis, ......wait.

The german Keiler (mine clearance vehicle) uses the chassis of the M48!
They had a lot of Leo 1´s standind around but they choose an even older chassis. Because it´s cheaper.

Russia’s top brass accepts Terminator tank support combat vehicles for service

The vehicle is armed with two 30mm guns, a large-caliber machine-gun and the Ataka-T anti-tank system

MOSCOW, April 13. /TASS/. Russia’s Defense Ministry has accepted Terminator tank support combat vehicles for service and started their serial deliveries to the troops, Uralvagonzavod defense manufacturer reported on Friday.

"The tank support combat vehicle dubbed the Terminator has been accepted for service and is being serially delivered to the Russian army. The first batch of vehicles has already been handed over to the military," the company said.

The contract on the delivery of Terminator tank support combat vehicles to the troops was signed by Russia’s Defense Ministry and Uralvagonzavod at the Army-2017 arms exhibition. As a source in the Russian defense sector told TASS, ten such vehicles have already been delivered to the troops and they will take part in the Victory Parade on Moscow’s Red Square on May 9.

Uralvagonzavod has demonstrated the Terminator at the Defexpo India 2018 arms show, which runs in India’s Chennai. India’s Defense Minister Nirmala Sitharaman viewed the tank support combat vehicle on Uralvagonzavod’s stand at the exhibition.

The Terminator is armed with two 30mm guns, a large-caliber machine-gun and the Ataka-T anti-tank system. The vehicle is designed to provide fire support for the armor in an offensive, in particular, to neutralize an enemy’s manpower armed with mobile anti-tank systems.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/999576

Terminator-3 Tank Support Vehicle Will Be Able to Take Down Drones – Developer

The BMPT-72 Terminator tank support combat vehicle has recently proven its worth in the Syrian conflict, and began to be introduced into the Russian Army in April.

Uralvagonzavod is in the process of creating a new third generation of its Terminator series of tank support vehicles, Rostec Armament cluster industrial director Sergei Abramov has told Sputnik.

"Taking into account the experience of the combat use of the Terminator, we are now working on the shape of a new modification of this machine," Abramov said.

"The improvement of its tactical and technical characteristics, and the modernization of its chassis are being discussed. The new vehicle will be able to operate against all types of targets: air, ground, enemy troops and material targets," the official added.

Noting that the existing Terminator-2 has proven "very successful," Abramov said that there were still multiple ways it could be improved over the long term. For instance, whereas the current version of the vehicle has a crew of five, a three-man version has also become available. The latter is made possible through increased automation of the vehicle and its weapons, the official explained.

Other innovations include ground-to-air projectiles with an adjustable trajectory, which will allow the Terminator-3 to bring down unmanned aerial vehicles, as well as burst projectiles and larger-caliber main guns, a defense industry source told Sputnik.

Noting that it's too early to officially name the next-gen tank support vehicle, Abramov said it could be dubbed Terminator-3, pending defense ministry approval.

Terminator developer Uralvagonzavod created the first version of its combat support vehicle in the late 1990s based on the experiences of the Soviet Afghan and Chechen wars. The Terminator made its first public appearance in 2000. Equipped with twin 30mm autocannons, two grenade launchers, four ATAKA anti-tank guided missiles and a 7.62mm PKTM machine gun, the system is built on the chassis of a T-72 main battle tank. Current Terminator-2 operators include Russia and Kazakhstan, with Algeria set to receive several hundred starting in 2018, and other countries, including Azerbaijan, Peru, and Syria showing interest.

Last year, the Terminator-2 was spotted at the Hmeymim airbase in Syria, where it was examined by President Bashar Assad.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201806091065270875-terminator-3-new-capabilities/

So after all the Terminator 3 will indeed use bigger cannons, makes much sense. According to Sputnik BR one "50" mm cannon (57 in all probability) will substitute the twin 30 mm ones.

https://br.sputniknews.com/defesa/2018060811418235-terminator-exterminador-veiculo-blindado-russia/

Bigger cannons make sense for a support vehicle. Especially in urban areas where the 30mm cannons will find it difficult to cause a lot of structural damage.
I realize the Ataka has a thermobaric version, but you can only fire 4 of them before you have to reload - and I doubt they are a lot more effective than a 125mm HE round.
Main battle tanks certainly have proven their worth in the fighting in Syria's cities.

I suppose the niche of the current BMPT-72 is in open terrain.

The Bmpt concept was to fill two roles to support tanks against infantry and ATGW teams and secondly as a multi role fire support vehicle. In built up areas it would be useful for both tanks and bmpt to work in conjunction.

The beauty of bmpt concept is that it could be tailored to your needs -- threat faced ---- budget --- what equipment you already own etc. I am surprised that we haven't seen other countries trying to produce there own versions in various quality from crude to high quality. When you think about all you really need is an armoured chassis (tank preferred) any AA gun in storage and any ATGW you have in storage put it all together add any optics ranger finger fcs etc you want maybe add armour and/or caged armour and you have vehicle which basically does the job and it can be crude as u want or good quality and obviously effectiveness will depend on what weapons you use vs your threat. As I've mentioned before something like a zpu-4 mounted on armour chassis could be useful as VBIED killer. The SAA was pictured with a T -55 chassis with zpu-4 although it didn't specify it they used it in such role.

Something as basic as the btr-t could have been useful in syria and I am surprised SAA never made there own crude version. A T-55 chassis with caged armour and two m1939 37mm guns (sitting in storage) along with konkurs or AT-6 and have a fairly reasonable similar vehicle. I know that zsu-57-2 in the past has had a roof welded on top of turret and used as fire support vehicle and to honest it could have potential if u revised turret made it unmanned auto feed for the guns and add ATGW along with era or added armour, and we all know that zsu-23-4 has been used in ground support yet another vehicle that could get same treatment although turret armour would need additional armour bejng weak. Obviously these mentions would be what other countries could do not Russia. The west I believe don't have such type of vehicles. I actually like it when you see forces modify and bastardise vehicles into something more useful. I remember hez were seen with large calibre AA guns 85mm / 100mm mounted on armoured vehicles and used as fire support not bad considering these guns in there current state would no longer be useful in there designed role of anti air system. Other useful guns you could use s-60 57mm,  GSh-6-23, GSh-6-30 or any other gun sitting on an rotting aircraft.

U am actually surprised that Serbia or Belarus hasn't developed anything like this they both like to tinker with vehicles and make prototypes.
Serbia could use M-84 or T-72 chassis along with the guns off a praga twin 30mm oor a double or single bofors 40mm along with cheap sagger 2T5 a radio guided ATGW the sagger slower speed wouldn't be a huge problem as it would likely be targeting stationary vehicles or buildings.

As for Belarus the developed the 2T stalker a heavy armoured recce vehicle based on the T-72. Although a recce vehicle it could still cover the same roles of bmpt as fire support and dealing with infantry etc supporting tanks, having a single 30mm gun, 7.62 mm, AGS-17, 2x AT-6 it's got the equipment and additionally it would also provide limited air defence as it's also equipped with 2x sa-18.

To be honest I think a mix of all three vehicles would be ideal in a unit. You would have your MBT, BMPT and 2T stalker heavy armoured recce vehicle
(Inc limited air defence). Although I would replace some of the weapons on 2T replace 30mm with 57mm gun, AGS -17 with AGS-30 or AGS-40, AT-6 with either kornet EM or Khrizantema-S and finally the sa-18 with verba. You now have a unit that is versatile and fit for all situations and be highly lethal.

So the Chinese created a BMPT of their own:





Looks like the armament is 30mm/7.62 main & coaxial, with 4 atgms, and 20 rockets.

China isn't very original.

magnumcromagnon wrote:So the Chinese created a BMPT of their own

It really seems very lightly armored ...

Article about the history of Soviet/Russian BMPTs.

https://aw.my.com/us/road-bmpt?fbclid=IwAR2zR6RK36hjM3RTfVpXAcilqvAwSb-UBqHwATIeN4Gf_phUXsBW3W8YcCc#

I couldn't find the original 57mm grenade launcher thread, so I'll have to place it here:

In Rostec create a new missile complex "Bulat"

In the corporation "Rostec" is developing a new complex of guided missile weapons "Bulat", according to RIA Novosti , the director of the cluster of conventional weapons, ammunition and special chemistry company Sergey Abramov.



Recently, information about preparations for the testing of the Bulat missile complex has appeared in the public domain. The correspondent asked Abramov to tell more about this weapon.

"Yes, indeed, there is such work. But nothing more, unfortunately, I can not say. We keep this information secret," he answered.

Earlier it was reported that the new system will be installed on advanced armored vehicles.

According to sources, the promising armored personnel carrier “Boomerang” with the “Epoch” combat module was presented at the international forum “Army-2017”. This module is generously supplied with various weapons , including those still unknown to the general public.

The armament complex is represented by the PKTM machine gun, the Kornet ATGM, as well as the 57-mm low-ballistic LSH-57 automatic cannon and small Bulat guided missiles designed to destroy manpower and unprotected enemy equipment.

Launcher of the new complex on 8 missiles mounted on the roof of the module. Apparently, the “Bulatov” cassette is made retractable, that is, in the transport position it retracts inside the tower. Shooting from the complex is in the front hemisphere. For his guidance requires the rotation of the entire tower.

https://topwar.ru/151840-v-rostehe-sozdajut-novyj-raketnyj-kompleks-bulat.html