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IsosThere're some big issues with mortars
BMPT "Terminator"
Isos- Posts : 7413
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There're some big issues with mortars
GarryB- Posts : 28986
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There're some big issues with mortars
More often than not the problem is not the mortar, but the ammo...
And BMPT would have an unmanned turret, so the risk to the crew would be tiny.
Mortars are very very effective weapons.
It will be interesting to see what sort of mortar carrier they have with the Armata division... perhaps such a heavy unit might warrant a 160mm or even 240mm mortar, or perhaps they will stick with 120mm mortars with guided shells and go for precision and ammo capacity rather than sheer weight. (like they did in WWII where they had 152mm and 203mm guns and not much any bigger than that...)
d_taddei2- Posts : 1809
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GarryB wrote:There're some big issues with mortars
More often than not the problem is not the mortar, but the ammo...
And BMPT would have an unmanned turret, so the risk to the crew would be tiny.
Mortars are very very effective weapons.
It will be interesting to see what sort of mortar carrier they have with the Armata division... perhaps such a heavy unit might warrant a 160mm or even 240mm mortar, or perhaps they will stick with 120mm mortars with guided shells and go for precision and ammo capacity rather than sheer weight. (like they did in WWII where they had 152mm and 203mm guns and not much any bigger than that...)
they could have a double barrelled 120mm a like Finlands AMOS for rapid firing, probably be better with double barrelled 160mm for extra hitting power or like you say a single 240mm self loading would be nice
George1- Posts : 16083
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The third "Terminator" is created as a variant of modernization of tanks T-72 and T-90
Earlier, some media reported that the new Russian tank support combat vehicle "Terminator 3" based on heavy tracked platform "Armata" will be created
MOSCOW, June 2nd. / TASS /. New Combat Vehicle Fire Support (BMOP), "Terminator 3" is created primarily as a variant of modernization of tanks T-72 and T-90, a modification to the "Armata" platform is considered on its own initiative. This was announced by Deputy Director General of TASS "Uralvagonzavod" by Vyacheslav Halitov special equipment.
Earlier, some media reported that the new tank support combat vehicle "Terminator 3" based on heavy tracked platform "Armata" will be created in Russia.
"Terminator 3" involves not only the platform "Armata". This platform primarily tank T-72 and T-90. Because the idea was to put combat units on tank chassis, which are a large number of our foreign customers. "Terminator 3" is more suitable to adapt it to the tank T-72 or T-90, which are available for some of our foreign customers ", - said Halitov.
According to him, the possibility of installing a new machine different combat units, including guns caliber 30 or 57 millimeters.
They will use BMOP against the medium and heavy targets and against the light engineering, as well as low-flying helicopters and drones, said the deputy head of "Uralvagonzavod".
Speaking about the decision to create a fighting vehicle fire support platform "Armata" Halitov explained that all depends on the willingness of the customer. "We will do everything we tell We own initiative on the platform." Armata "worked out very large type series We have been working on a series of types on the platform." Armata ", in which, inter alia, is BMOP" - he said the agency.
He also noted that "Uralvagonzavod" has refused the definition of "tank support combat vehicle" for the representatives of the series "Terminator". According Khalitova, this definition was incorrect, and "so the machine did not find the proper application and did not cause so much interest." "After all, why we would need a tank, if with it still need to buy some kind of support for the car?" - Said the deputy head of "Uralvagonzavod".
Подробнее на ТАСС:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3332924&usg=ALkJrhgW-ntpfO2mbuv6x8jEyoay6105CA
Earlier, some media reported that the new Russian tank support combat vehicle "Terminator 3" based on heavy tracked platform "Armata" will be created
MOSCOW, June 2nd. / TASS /. New Combat Vehicle Fire Support (BMOP), "Terminator 3" is created primarily as a variant of modernization of tanks T-72 and T-90, a modification to the "Armata" platform is considered on its own initiative. This was announced by Deputy Director General of TASS "Uralvagonzavod" by Vyacheslav Halitov special equipment.
Earlier, some media reported that the new tank support combat vehicle "Terminator 3" based on heavy tracked platform "Armata" will be created in Russia.
"Terminator 3" involves not only the platform "Armata". This platform primarily tank T-72 and T-90. Because the idea was to put combat units on tank chassis, which are a large number of our foreign customers. "Terminator 3" is more suitable to adapt it to the tank T-72 or T-90, which are available for some of our foreign customers ", - said Halitov.
According to him, the possibility of installing a new machine different combat units, including guns caliber 30 or 57 millimeters.
They will use BMOP against the medium and heavy targets and against the light engineering, as well as low-flying helicopters and drones, said the deputy head of "Uralvagonzavod".
Speaking about the decision to create a fighting vehicle fire support platform "Armata" Halitov explained that all depends on the willingness of the customer. "We will do everything we tell We own initiative on the platform." Armata "worked out very large type series We have been working on a series of types on the platform." Armata ", in which, inter alia, is BMOP" - he said the agency.
He also noted that "Uralvagonzavod" has refused the definition of "tank support combat vehicle" for the representatives of the series "Terminator". According Khalitova, this definition was incorrect, and "so the machine did not find the proper application and did not cause so much interest." "After all, why we would need a tank, if with it still need to buy some kind of support for the car?" - Said the deputy head of "Uralvagonzavod".
Подробнее на ТАСС:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3332924&usg=ALkJrhgW-ntpfO2mbuv6x8jEyoay6105CA
Cyrus the great- Posts : 290
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Werewolf
How did you infer that the T-15 has weaker frontal armour than the T-14 Armata? I'm quite certain that the T-15 will eventually have comparable armour if it doesn't already have that level of protection.
Isos- Posts : 7413
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What's the diference bewtween t-15 and kurg-25 ? They have the same plateform, same turrets, and same interior space. Why not only make T-15 which have just a beter armor ( at least on the front, on the other sides they are the same).
Cyrus the great- Posts : 290
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Isos wrote:What's the diference bewtween t-15 and kurg-25 ? They have the same plateform, same turrets, and same interior space. Why not only make T-15 which have just a beter armor ( at least on the front, on the other sides they are the same).
Russia requires the Kurganets-25 because it can traverse rivers and lakes without the need of a bridge. The T-15 is far too heavy for this purpose.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 4961
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GarryB wrote:
But why to replace? to deal with you have 57mm gun. Max mass of HE in 120mm rouns is about 5kg in Kornet is 10kg so what has bigger punch?
120mm rounds are closer to 16kgs and Kornet wont fit down the barrel of a gun.
not really, Kitolov-2 carries rougle half he carried by Kornet.
source: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%D0%A131
120mm Vena guided rounds characteristics
Index shot Round HE Max range, km
kg kg
guided:
riffled
" Kitolov-2 " 28 5.5 12.0
smoothbore
" Fringe " 27 5.1 9.0
" Beta " 16 5.0 7.0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M133_Kornet
9M133 Kornet-EM
HEAT 7 kg 8.0
Thermobaric 10 kg 10.0
GarryB wrote:
As for armata variant - the one presented as green little mockup had secondary armament 30mm gun and 4 barrel Gatling ... the only one in Russia so far was Yakushev-Borzov YakB-12.7mm. Interesting if this concept will be followed up.
there is a reason the Hind has dropped the 12.7mm gatling for a twin barrel 23mm cannon.. and a 12.7mm and a 30mm 2A42 on the same vehicle is a little redundant with a 120mm.
this reason might be for example no 57mm gun on top of 12,7mm gun?
GarryB wrote:
A grenade launcher like the 57mm or 40mm plus a cannon like a 23mm weapon make rather more sense and compliment the 120mm better.
I would say both concepts have similar abilities to fight infantry/bunkers/ifv ...except effective AA.
57mm gun can have guided projectiles with roughy 76mm weight and be immediately ready to shoot any chopper/drone in pretty nice radius
Cyrus the great- Posts : 290
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Why would a BMP-T require a round more powerful than a 120mm mortar round when it only has to defend armour and ground troops from enemy infantrymen in urban engagements? I can understand notching up the firepower to 160mm, but 240mm? How many 160mm rounds could the T-14 Armata hold inside the hull if they did decide to integrate the 160mm mortar on to its chassis?
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 4961
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57mm is back didnt I tell ya lads?
http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3332924
+ASTANA, 2 Jun – RIA Novosti. The first prototype of a promising self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery complex "Derivation-defense" will be ready by 2017, told reporters on Thursday the General Director of the Central research Institute "Petrel" (part of "Uralvagonzavod") George Zakamennykh.
"We are conducting developmental work "Derivation-defense" on the creation of anti-aircraft artillery system caliber 57 mm in the interest of military defense. The readiness of a prototype expected next year, the work is performed under the state defense order", — he said during the exhibition of armament KADEX-2016.
РИА Новости http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160602/1441890314.html#ixzz4AS7sN7ic
"Terminator 3" involves not only the platform "Armata". This platform primarily tank T-72 and T-90. Because the idea was to put combat units on tank chassis, which are a large number of our foreign customers. "Terminator 3" is more suitable to adapt it to the tank T-72 or T-90, which are available for some of our foreign customers ", - said Halitov.
According to him, the possibility of installing a new machine different combat units, including guns caliber 30 or 57 millimeters.
They will use BMOP against the medium and heavy targets and against the light engineering, as well as low-flying helicopters and drones, said the deputy head of "Uralvagonzavod".
http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3332924
GarryB- Posts : 28986
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they could have a double barrelled 120mm a like Finlands AMOS for rapid firing, probably be better with double barrelled 160mm for extra hitting power or like you say a single 240mm self loading would be nice
Double barrel guns sound good but in practical terms the only practical area where multiple barrels are useful is rocket artillery and anti aircraft artillery.
I would suggest even in 120mm calibre that a single gun with an auto loading system and more ammo make more sense than two barrels... and the difference is even greater in larger calibres.
An Armata based 240mm mortar would be interesting... getting 130kgs lighter with every shot... well more than that if you include propellant.
How did you infer that the T-15 has weaker frontal armour than the T-14 Armata? I'm quite certain that the T-15 will eventually have comparable armour if it doesn't already have that level of protection.
the whole purpose of the Armata platform is to have a family of vehicles with the same level of armour and mobility. T-15 and T-14 should have a comparable level of frontal armour.
What's the diference bewtween t-15 and kurg-25 ? They have the same plateform, same turrets, and same interior space. Why not only make T-15 which have just a beter armor ( at least on the front, on the other sides they are the same).
Different weight classes and different divisions.... there will be armata divisions with armata MBTs and IFVs and APCs and air defence vehicles and artillery vehicles and engineer vehicles and recon vehicles etc etc and there will be Kurganets divisions with Kurganets MBTs, IFVs, APCs, SPAAGs, artillery, command, recon, transport, ambulance, engineering etc etc vehicles...
not really, Kitolov-2 carries rougle half he carried by Kornet.
No. Kornet has a thermobaric warhead equivalent to 10kg of HE warhead, its actual warhead is about the same at about 5kg, with Kitolov having a 5.3kg warhead and Gran having the same warhead size, but the kitolov travelling 12km with a diving top attack trajectory, while Gran can travel 9km, also with a diving top attack profile.
the 120mm shells fired by gun mortars include a standard HE round with a 19.8kg warhead and a rocket assisted model with a 13km range and a similar weight warhead.
The standard 120mm mortar round has a 16.8kg warhead and a range to 7km.
Lets just say that the BMP carrier of Kornet missiles carries about 12 missiles onboard... VENA, which is based on a similar vehicle carries 70 rounds onboard...
this reason might be for example no 57mm gun on top of 12,7mm gun?
A 57mm grenade launcher does not compete with a 12.7mm HMG. The HE capacity of a 12.7mm HMG is tiny... it is a kinetic round like a rifle calibre MG... it just has better range and punch against lightly armoured targets.
In comparison a 57mm grenade launcher... or any grenade launcher has much more HE punch and a low enough muzzle velocity to be able to lob rounds over cover at targets with good frontal protection but not good top cover.
I would say both concepts have similar abilities to fight infantry/bunkers/ifv ...except effective AA.
57mm gun can have guided projectiles with roughy 76mm weight and be immediately ready to shoot any chopper/drone in pretty nice radius
Guided 120mm shells could easily be used against any aircraft...
Against heavy bunkers and buildings the 120mm rounds will be much more effective than 57mm guns.
Also keep in mind if you need 57mm to defend from air attack there will be IFVs with 57mm guns and also likely SPAAGs with 57mm guns too.
Equally of course the tanks will have 125mm guns, but with BMPTs with 120mm guns then the need to carry so much HE rounds will be greatly reduced... and of course supporting artillery will include both 120mm mortar carriers and 152mm guns.
Why would a BMP-T require a round more powerful than a 120mm mortar round when it only has to defend armour and ground troops from enemy infantrymen in urban engagements? I can understand notching up the firepower to 160mm, but 240mm? How many 160mm rounds could the T-14 Armata hold inside the hull if they did decide to integrate the 160mm mortar on to its chassis?
Not suggesting BMPT has larger calibre guns than 120mm... just speculating whether seeing as how the Kurganets and boomerang and even typhoon units will likely have 120mm mortar carriers operating with them whether the Armata units should have more powerful mortar carriers operating with them.
I rather suspect the 240mm mortars will be kept in reserve for special purposes and that the 160mm mortars will be used for dedicated mountain units only if at all.
Of course the 40kg 160mm rounds and 130kg 240mm rounds would be devastating even with one shot with guided rounds.
George1- Posts : 16083
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Meet Russia’s Tank 2.0, Machine Able to Defend Itself Against Anti-Tank Missiles
Russia could be reviewing the possibility of ditching the traditional tank in favor of a machine “that is much more capable of defending itself against missile-equipped infantry and engaging other vehicles at stand-off ranges with anti-tank missiles,” according to Russian expert on defense policy Ruslan Pukhov.
"We discovered that no matter how skillful the crew, the tank would get up to ten hits,” Pukhov, the Director of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) told the Washington-based Center for the National Interest, US foreign policy think tank, on Tuesday.
“Even if you have perfect armor — active, passive. In one case it will save you from one hit, in another case from two hits, but you’ll still get five hits and you’re done. That’s why now you’re supposed to have some kind of Tank 2.0,” said the Russian expert.
Russia’s Tank 2.0 is not the state-of-the-art T-14 Armata, as some might think, but, as Pukhov put it, "what Russians call among themselves — Boyevaya Mashina Podderzhki Tankov [Tank Support Fighting Machine].”
In fact it’s not a tank support machine but an entirely new type of tank in its own right, a machine which can protect itself.
“So there is a serious debate about it,” the expert explained.
Pukhov further explained to the defense editor of The National Interest magazine, published by the think tank, that in previous eras tanks were more or less protected against weapons like rocket propelled grenades and anti-tank missiles, the latest generation of those weapons however can punch through even the toughest armor.
“That’s why we have the concept of the Tank 2.0,” the magazine quotes the Russian expert as saying.
“We have a prototype of this machine that’s called the fighting vehicle to support tank attack — Terminator.”
Appropriately nicknamed “the Terminator,” these fearsome vehicles sport a turret with two 30-millimeter 2A42 automatic cannons and four Ataka missile launchers. Further, the BMPT has a 7.62-millimeter machine gun next to the main guns and two AG-17D automatic grenade launchers in the hull.
There have been two versions of the Terminator concept that have been developed thus far on the chassis of the T-72 main battle tank.
However earlier in April, Oleg Sienko, a senior manager with the manufacturer, Uralvagonzavod Corporation, told RIA Novosti that Russia also plans to develop its tank support fighting vehicle dubbed the Terminator-3 based on the country’s latest Armata tanks.
The vehicle was designed based on combat experience gained during the Soviet war in Afghanistan and the First Chechen War.
The Russian military then realized that its earlier-model BMP fighting vehicles suffered from thin armor and too few weapons.
During those wars, Russia’s foes hid in mountains or in the upper floors of buildings. As the armored vehicles passed, rebels would shoot down and blow them up – and the vehicles couldn’t aim high enough to shoot back.
In 2005, the Russian military began testing out a small number of Terminators. They could shoot at high angles. Plus, the vehicles had heavier armored derived from the T-72 tank.
As of late 2013, the only operator of the BMPT was Kazakhstan.
Reports suggested that Russia appears to have foregone procurement of the BMPT in favor of the T-15 IFV based on the Armata Universal Combat Platform to fill the role.
If and when the Terminator is ultimately fielded, the vehicle would be able to engage large groups of massed infantry in built-up areas with a combination of missiles and automatic cannon fire.
“We need it badly. Believe it or not, we’re not going to project force, we need to protect our territory,” Pukhov stated.
http://sputniknews.com/military/20160730/1043784253/russia-new-tank.html
Russia could be reviewing the possibility of ditching the traditional tank in favor of a machine “that is much more capable of defending itself against missile-equipped infantry and engaging other vehicles at stand-off ranges with anti-tank missiles,” according to Russian expert on defense policy Ruslan Pukhov.
"We discovered that no matter how skillful the crew, the tank would get up to ten hits,” Pukhov, the Director of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) told the Washington-based Center for the National Interest, US foreign policy think tank, on Tuesday.
“Even if you have perfect armor — active, passive. In one case it will save you from one hit, in another case from two hits, but you’ll still get five hits and you’re done. That’s why now you’re supposed to have some kind of Tank 2.0,” said the Russian expert.
Russia’s Tank 2.0 is not the state-of-the-art T-14 Armata, as some might think, but, as Pukhov put it, "what Russians call among themselves — Boyevaya Mashina Podderzhki Tankov [Tank Support Fighting Machine].”
In fact it’s not a tank support machine but an entirely new type of tank in its own right, a machine which can protect itself.
“So there is a serious debate about it,” the expert explained.
Pukhov further explained to the defense editor of The National Interest magazine, published by the think tank, that in previous eras tanks were more or less protected against weapons like rocket propelled grenades and anti-tank missiles, the latest generation of those weapons however can punch through even the toughest armor.
“That’s why we have the concept of the Tank 2.0,” the magazine quotes the Russian expert as saying.
“We have a prototype of this machine that’s called the fighting vehicle to support tank attack — Terminator.”
Appropriately nicknamed “the Terminator,” these fearsome vehicles sport a turret with two 30-millimeter 2A42 automatic cannons and four Ataka missile launchers. Further, the BMPT has a 7.62-millimeter machine gun next to the main guns and two AG-17D automatic grenade launchers in the hull.
There have been two versions of the Terminator concept that have been developed thus far on the chassis of the T-72 main battle tank.
However earlier in April, Oleg Sienko, a senior manager with the manufacturer, Uralvagonzavod Corporation, told RIA Novosti that Russia also plans to develop its tank support fighting vehicle dubbed the Terminator-3 based on the country’s latest Armata tanks.
The vehicle was designed based on combat experience gained during the Soviet war in Afghanistan and the First Chechen War.
The Russian military then realized that its earlier-model BMP fighting vehicles suffered from thin armor and too few weapons.
During those wars, Russia’s foes hid in mountains or in the upper floors of buildings. As the armored vehicles passed, rebels would shoot down and blow them up – and the vehicles couldn’t aim high enough to shoot back.
In 2005, the Russian military began testing out a small number of Terminators. They could shoot at high angles. Plus, the vehicles had heavier armored derived from the T-72 tank.
As of late 2013, the only operator of the BMPT was Kazakhstan.
Reports suggested that Russia appears to have foregone procurement of the BMPT in favor of the T-15 IFV based on the Armata Universal Combat Platform to fill the role.
If and when the Terminator is ultimately fielded, the vehicle would be able to engage large groups of massed infantry in built-up areas with a combination of missiles and automatic cannon fire.
“We need it badly. Believe it or not, we’re not going to project force, we need to protect our territory,” Pukhov stated.
http://sputniknews.com/military/20160730/1043784253/russia-new-tank.html
GarryB- Posts : 28986
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Join date : 2010-03-30
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The issue is however that the BMPT makes sense with standard military units where only the tank is heavily armoured.
The issue was teams of enemy troops with MGs and sniper rifles and lots of anti tank weapons from RPGs to ATGMs who could immobilise the front and rear vehicle in a column and then pick off soldiers if they left their vehicles or destroy all the vehicles in the column one by one.
The vehicles with the heaviest armour were still vulnerable to attacks from above and the vehicles with the most fire power(tanks) lacked elevation to hit awkward targets while the vehicles best able to defeat such threats (IFVs) had relatively thin armour and could be taken out fairly quickly.
The solution was a vehicle largely equipped to deal with infantry and light armoured vehicles (ie IFV armament and/or SPAAG armament) in a heavily armoured vehicle like a tank.
Armata based IFVs or gun based SPAAGs would fill the same role.
It should be pointed out that the Russians and Soviets have a long tradition of using SPAAGs in the ground to ground role already.
With the armata concept where every vehicle has tank level armour and mobility and the different types have different levels of fire power suggests that a standard armata IFV with the troop compartment replaced with a double or triple ammo load could already substitute for a dedicated BMPT...
It is interesting to see the hull mounted 30mm grenade launchers have been restored to the design, but I think mini turrets with much wider fields of fire and better elevation capability make rather more sense while being more expensive.
Matching the rather slim Balkan 40mm grenade launcher with a PKM MG in each hull mounted turret would make them rather powerful and rather more independent of the main turret allowing more targets to be engaged separately at one time.
The issue was teams of enemy troops with MGs and sniper rifles and lots of anti tank weapons from RPGs to ATGMs who could immobilise the front and rear vehicle in a column and then pick off soldiers if they left their vehicles or destroy all the vehicles in the column one by one.
The vehicles with the heaviest armour were still vulnerable to attacks from above and the vehicles with the most fire power(tanks) lacked elevation to hit awkward targets while the vehicles best able to defeat such threats (IFVs) had relatively thin armour and could be taken out fairly quickly.
The solution was a vehicle largely equipped to deal with infantry and light armoured vehicles (ie IFV armament and/or SPAAG armament) in a heavily armoured vehicle like a tank.
Armata based IFVs or gun based SPAAGs would fill the same role.
It should be pointed out that the Russians and Soviets have a long tradition of using SPAAGs in the ground to ground role already.
With the armata concept where every vehicle has tank level armour and mobility and the different types have different levels of fire power suggests that a standard armata IFV with the troop compartment replaced with a double or triple ammo load could already substitute for a dedicated BMPT...
It is interesting to see the hull mounted 30mm grenade launchers have been restored to the design, but I think mini turrets with much wider fields of fire and better elevation capability make rather more sense while being more expensive.
Matching the rather slim Balkan 40mm grenade launcher with a PKM MG in each hull mounted turret would make them rather powerful and rather more independent of the main turret allowing more targets to be engaged separately at one time.
Benya- Posts : 526
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Analysis: Fire support vehicles BMP-T and BMPT-72 of Russian defense industry.
Russian defense industry has developed and manufactured fire support vehicle BMPT and BMPT-72 based on the chassis of T-72 main battle tanks to increase fire power and combat capabilities of dismounted troops. This type of vehicle is armed with automatic cannon and anti-tank guided missiles able to destroy a wide range of modern military threats on the battlefield.
Russian-made BMPT-72 Terminator 2 fire support vehicle
The Russian defense industry under the umbrella of Rosoboronexport, Russia's state-run arms exporter company promotes fire support vehicles, BMP- T Terminator 1 and BMPT-72 Terminator 2 for the international military market.
The BMPT-72 vehicle was developed to support tank and motorized riflemen units. It is based on the chassis of the T-72 main battle tank (MBT) and features protection that is similar to the one of MBTs. BMPT-72 has an armament suite that provides detecting and eliminating of small-sized camouflaged targets. Modern target search-and-detection systems, an automatized fire control system, a powerful multichannel automatic weapons suite, and all-aspect protection of the crew allows BMPT-72 to accomplish fire support missions in all types of combat environment and in complex geographical areas, by day and night, against any enemy.
BMPT-72 is produced using phased-out-of-service T-72 MBTs. Obsolete T-72 tanks that are not supposed to be upgraded due to the economic ineffectiveness of such a modernization can be rebuilt into BMPT-72 vehicles. The rebuilding process comprises the replacement of tank turret by the BMPT combat module with remote controlled weapons (automatic cannons, a machinegun, and guided missiles) located in a separate structure, as well as the repairing and upgrade (at customer`s request) of the chassis. The works to rebuild T-72s into BMPT-72s can be performed at customer`s production facilities.
The main armament of the BMPT-72 consists of two 30 mm 2A42 automatic cannons that fire high-explosive and armour-piercing rounds. The guided weapon system incorporates two launchers with four ready-to-launch guided missiles armed with high-explosive anti-tank or thermobaric warheads. The vehicle can fire the missiles on the move by day and night. It also carries a coaxial 7.62 mm machinegun.
The uses of tank chassis provides BMPT-72 an high level of the vehicle`s protection and allows it to accomplish missions in tank formations under enemy`s fire. The protection suite of BMPT-72 incorporates basic armour, integrated explosive reactive armour, an automated smoke screening system, additional bar-slat armour, a camouflage painting, and a low visual signature
Russian-made BMP-T Terminator 1 fire support vehicle first version.
The BMP-T Terminator 1 fire support vehicle is designed to provide fire support to tank and motorized riflemen units and to detect and eliminate low-observable and scattered targets (primarily, enemy`s manpower equipped with small arms and anti-tank weapons) on the battlefield. It features an armament suite that allows destructing of heavy-protected platforms (tanks and tank-based vehicles), fortifications, and aerial targets. However, the detection of low-observable targets and their well-timed elimination are the primary tasks set before the BMPT fire support vehicle.
The BMP-T Terminator 1 can be used in tank formations or separately. A tank unit equipped with BMPTs features advanced efficiency, as enemy`s well-protected vehicles and fortifications are destroyed by MBTs, while manpower, anti-tank-systems, and soft-skin vehicles by BMPTs. The separate usage of fire support vehicles envisages dismounted troops combat efficiency boosting, conveys securing and escorting, and eliminating of terrorists.
The armament of the BMP-T Terminator 1 includes two 30 mm 2A42 dual-axis stabilized automatic cannons with an ammunition load of 850 rounds, a 7.62 mm PKT machinegun with an ammunition load of 2,000 rounds, four anti-tank laser-guided missiles, and two 30 mm automatic grenade launchers with an ammunition load of 600 grenades.
The BMP-T Terminator 1features advanced protection suite that shield the crew from anti-tank munitions. BMPT has tank-level basic armour. Its front part is not weakened by a firing port intended for tank gun. The sides of the vehicle are additionally protected by explosive reactive armour. The BMPT`s protection suite actually exceeds the tank`s one. The rear part of the vehicle features bar-slat armour.
Source:
http://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/analysis_fire_support_vehicles_bmp-t_and_bmpt-72_of_russian_defense_industry_tass_10302173.html
I'm curious about how the Army will incorporate the BMPTs into its tank units. Maybe they will assign a BMPT company to each tank battalion of an armored brigade/division, or they do it on a much more organic manner. A few months ago I have posted an interesting article in the Armata thread (also from Army Recognition), and I'm sure that with the introduction of the "Terminator 3" based on the Armata platform it will be incorporated into the Armata brigades/divisions in an organic way.
The link to the article I mentioned: http://www.armyrecognition.com/armies_in_the_world_analysis_focus/tactics_of_russian_motor_rifle_brigades_will_change_with_introduction_of_armata_tracked_platform_tass_12407161.html
Speaking about the Terminator 3, it could also receive some kind of APS (most likely "Afghanit"), and "Shtora" passive electronic defense system, plus the "Nakidka" radar absorbent camouflage paint, or a more modern alternative of these two systems. Plus its automated turret with dual 57mm autocannons could also be mounted onto a T-90/T-90MS chassis, which would make a great export potential for it.
Russian defense industry has developed and manufactured fire support vehicle BMPT and BMPT-72 based on the chassis of T-72 main battle tanks to increase fire power and combat capabilities of dismounted troops. This type of vehicle is armed with automatic cannon and anti-tank guided missiles able to destroy a wide range of modern military threats on the battlefield.
Russian-made BMPT-72 Terminator 2 fire support vehicle
The Russian defense industry under the umbrella of Rosoboronexport, Russia's state-run arms exporter company promotes fire support vehicles, BMP- T Terminator 1 and BMPT-72 Terminator 2 for the international military market.
The BMPT-72 vehicle was developed to support tank and motorized riflemen units. It is based on the chassis of the T-72 main battle tank (MBT) and features protection that is similar to the one of MBTs. BMPT-72 has an armament suite that provides detecting and eliminating of small-sized camouflaged targets. Modern target search-and-detection systems, an automatized fire control system, a powerful multichannel automatic weapons suite, and all-aspect protection of the crew allows BMPT-72 to accomplish fire support missions in all types of combat environment and in complex geographical areas, by day and night, against any enemy.
BMPT-72 is produced using phased-out-of-service T-72 MBTs. Obsolete T-72 tanks that are not supposed to be upgraded due to the economic ineffectiveness of such a modernization can be rebuilt into BMPT-72 vehicles. The rebuilding process comprises the replacement of tank turret by the BMPT combat module with remote controlled weapons (automatic cannons, a machinegun, and guided missiles) located in a separate structure, as well as the repairing and upgrade (at customer`s request) of the chassis. The works to rebuild T-72s into BMPT-72s can be performed at customer`s production facilities.
The main armament of the BMPT-72 consists of two 30 mm 2A42 automatic cannons that fire high-explosive and armour-piercing rounds. The guided weapon system incorporates two launchers with four ready-to-launch guided missiles armed with high-explosive anti-tank or thermobaric warheads. The vehicle can fire the missiles on the move by day and night. It also carries a coaxial 7.62 mm machinegun.
The uses of tank chassis provides BMPT-72 an high level of the vehicle`s protection and allows it to accomplish missions in tank formations under enemy`s fire. The protection suite of BMPT-72 incorporates basic armour, integrated explosive reactive armour, an automated smoke screening system, additional bar-slat armour, a camouflage painting, and a low visual signature
Russian-made BMP-T Terminator 1 fire support vehicle first version.
The BMP-T Terminator 1 fire support vehicle is designed to provide fire support to tank and motorized riflemen units and to detect and eliminate low-observable and scattered targets (primarily, enemy`s manpower equipped with small arms and anti-tank weapons) on the battlefield. It features an armament suite that allows destructing of heavy-protected platforms (tanks and tank-based vehicles), fortifications, and aerial targets. However, the detection of low-observable targets and their well-timed elimination are the primary tasks set before the BMPT fire support vehicle.
The BMP-T Terminator 1 can be used in tank formations or separately. A tank unit equipped with BMPTs features advanced efficiency, as enemy`s well-protected vehicles and fortifications are destroyed by MBTs, while manpower, anti-tank-systems, and soft-skin vehicles by BMPTs. The separate usage of fire support vehicles envisages dismounted troops combat efficiency boosting, conveys securing and escorting, and eliminating of terrorists.
The armament of the BMP-T Terminator 1 includes two 30 mm 2A42 dual-axis stabilized automatic cannons with an ammunition load of 850 rounds, a 7.62 mm PKT machinegun with an ammunition load of 2,000 rounds, four anti-tank laser-guided missiles, and two 30 mm automatic grenade launchers with an ammunition load of 600 grenades.
The BMP-T Terminator 1features advanced protection suite that shield the crew from anti-tank munitions. BMPT has tank-level basic armour. Its front part is not weakened by a firing port intended for tank gun. The sides of the vehicle are additionally protected by explosive reactive armour. The BMPT`s protection suite actually exceeds the tank`s one. The rear part of the vehicle features bar-slat armour.
Source:
http://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/analysis_fire_support_vehicles_bmp-t_and_bmpt-72_of_russian_defense_industry_tass_10302173.htmlI'm curious about how the Army will incorporate the BMPTs into its tank units. Maybe they will assign a BMPT company to each tank battalion of an armored brigade/division, or they do it on a much more organic manner. A few months ago I have posted an interesting article in the Armata thread (also from Army Recognition), and I'm sure that with the introduction of the "Terminator 3" based on the Armata platform it will be incorporated into the Armata brigades/divisions in an organic way.
The link to the article I mentioned:
http://www.armyrecognition.com/armies_in_the_world_analysis_focus/tactics_of_russian_motor_rifle_brigades_will_change_with_introduction_of_armata_tracked_platform_tass_12407161.htmlSpeaking about the Terminator 3, it could also receive some kind of APS (most likely "Afghanit"), and "Shtora" passive electronic defense system, plus the "Nakidka" radar absorbent camouflage paint, or a more modern alternative of these two systems. Plus its automated turret with dual 57mm autocannons could also be mounted onto a T-90/T-90MS chassis, which would make a great export potential for it.
Cplnew83- Posts : 16
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kopyo-21 wrote:
It looked like what Ukraine do with ZTM-1 (Ukrainian 2A72 gun) on BTR-3E.
Is that a vehicle sold to Thailand ? The sight is a SAFRAN Electronic Défense MPS
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4213
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Cplnew83 wrote:kopyo-21 wrote:
It looked like what Ukraine do with ZTM-1 (Ukrainian 2A72 gun) on BTR-3E.
Is that a vehicle sold to Thailand ? The sight is a SAFRAN Electronic Défense MPS
Yes it is and yes it is the demonstrator that the RTA picked up.
MonkeymodelBananaRepublic- Posts : 57
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Why not use bmpt in syria to demonstrate combat effectiveness as they did for t 90? It would be good for sales/advertising and be able to see how effective the tank designed for urban combat really is
0nillie0- Posts : 163
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MonkeymodelBananaRepublic wrote:Why not use bmpt in syria to demonstrate combat effectiveness as they did for t 90? It would be good for sales/advertising and be able to see how effective the tank designed for urban combat really is
Well there are a few problems here :
Firstly, UralVagonZavod would have to produce additional BMPT's from its own pocket, which would also need to be slightly adjusted for the conditions in the field there, which means additional research and development costs.
This could be considered a risky investment, as this may very well backfire if an incompetent crew drives the vehicle into an ambush on camera.
Secondly, as has been common practice in Syria, ground vehicles will be operated by indigenous personnel, rather than Russian crews.
Who is going to train these Syrian/Iranian crews? The vehicle is only in limited service in Kazakhstan. No Russian military personnel is trained for operating this vehicle as far as i know.
I am sure UVZ personnel would rather show off the vehicle capabilities in controlled environment at expo's. Will be hard to find a volunteer for such a PR mission.
The T-90 so far has made a good showing. But these where T-90's from storage that where already built. It is a different story from non-existent BMPT's and crews.
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New Gas-Turbine Engine Trial Fall 2017: Arctic IFV Rytsar
Here: http://mil.today/2017/Arctic1/
Next gen Arctic BMP?
20+ ton IFV
GTD 400 HP
Here: http://mil.today/2017/Arctic1/
Development of advanced infantry fighting vehicle (IFV) Rytsar equipped with gas-turbine engine and electric transmission is under way; trials of the combat vehicle are scheduled in the falls, an insider in the Concern Tractor Plants told Mil.Today.
According to the interviewee, the Rytsar IFV is being created by JSC Special Machine Building Design Bureau, virtually, on its own initiative. Currently, the project is at the "payment stage", the vehicle components are being designed. Moreover, creation of the new IFV coincides with the concern’s reorganization process, the spokesman added
The Russian Defense Ministry plans to deploy the perspective vehicle in the Arctic where the gas turbine powerplant will operate better than the diesel one. The military wants the Rytsar IFVs to be supplied to Arctic-based motorized infantry brigades. The new combat vehicle must be powered with 400-hp engine, and its weight will exceed 20 tons, which is heavier than BMP-3.
The engine for Rytsar IFV has been already designed and is being tested now, but so far this powerplant develops only 380 hp, a source in the Kaluga-based experimental design bureau of motor building told Mil.Today. To increase power, the new turbine needs another supercharger and additional funding. The work on the new generator continues as well. According to the interviewee, the engine will pass from the test-bed trials to the field ones by the coming fall
Next gen Arctic BMP?
20+ ton IFV
GTD 400 HP
GarryB- Posts : 28986
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Hope they are sensible and put a small gas turbine APU on board so when the vehicle is just sitting and not moving around the smaller more fuel efficient GT can provide warmth and power to the vehicle.
Has been found with MBTs that running the main engine creates a big IR signature and burns a lot of fuel but is necessary in cold climates to keep the heater and electronics operating.
Command model MBTs have auxiliary APUs to power the extra radios and equipment and can be used when stationary for long periods meaning the main engine can be shut down greatly reducing the fuel burn and the IR signature of the vehicle.
Has been found with MBTs that running the main engine creates a big IR signature and burns a lot of fuel but is necessary in cold climates to keep the heater and electronics operating.
Command model MBTs have auxiliary APUs to power the extra radios and equipment and can be used when stationary for long periods meaning the main engine can be shut down greatly reducing the fuel burn and the IR signature of the vehicle.
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The Russian Ministry of Defense will purchase a batch of BMPT
As reported in his blog, Alexei Khlopotov (Gur Khan), Nizhny Tagil Uralvagonzavod is preparing to deploy a serial production of combat vehicles for the BMPT fire support, also known as the "Terminator." At present, about a dozen servicemen have arrived at the enterprise to learn how to operate these new machines. Within two weeks the sergeants passed a theoretical course on the design of the BMPT, and now they are studying the material part of the machine directly in the design bureau.
It is expected that purchases will begin in 2018. Currently, the number of purchased machines is not yet known, but, apparently, will amount to no less than 10 pieces.
The BMPT package will match the one in which these machines have already been supplied to Kazakhstan.
Crew BMPT - 5 people. Weapons: 4 Ataka-T missiles (Sturm-SM), 2 automatic 30 mm 2A42 cannons, 7.62mm PKT machine gun and 2 automatic 30mm AG-17D grenade launchers on the super-ground regiments.
The choice of this option is due to the fact that in this form the BMPT passed state tests and all necessary design documentation with the appropriate letter was properly drawn up for it, unlike the more modern and cheaper BMPT-72 "Terminator-2", which is not yet ready for serial production Production. At the same time, the BMPT can be upgraded by installing a commander's panorama with a thermal imaging channel.
The development of the BMPT was started in 1998-99 as a result of the generalization of the experience of fighting in Chechnya. In 2006, the BMPT completed state tests and was recommended for series production, which was to begin in 2010. For the tests, two copies of the BMPT were built, one of which was tested by real shelling, explosions on mines and landmines, proving high survivability. In anticipation of state orders, the first three serial corps were laid at Uralvagonzavod, however, according to Minister A.Serdyukov's decision, the program was closed. One of the motivations for this decision was the apparent obsolescence of the base machine - the T-90A tank, proclaimed by the first deputy defense minister V. Popovkin. Three pawned cars in 2010-2012 were completed for the Armed Forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan, where during the exercises they showed high efficiency.
Currently, the only existing prototype of the BMPT is dismantled for major repairs during which it will be brought to the appearance of the production car. At the same time it is planned that servicemen who arrived at the UVZ will participate in its assembly in order to better study the design. Upon returning to their unit, they will have to reproduce the experience gained.
The decision to adopt the BMPT into the armament of the Russian Army is conditioned by the analysis of the "Syrian" experience. The fighting in Syria has shown an urgent need for a specialized machine, "sharpened" for counter-terrorist operations. Unfortunately, the short-sighted decisions of the Ministry of Defense officials delayed the start of equipping the Russian Army with a BMPT for at least 8 years!
Probably, the first serial copies of the BMPT will go into service with the Taman Division and if not in 2018, then in 2019 they will pass a parade in Red Square, and then they will appear on the base of Khmeimim.
Gur Khan: BMPT "Terminator" (circa. 1999), developed during the Raman-99 R & D, was once severely criticized. Some experts considered the equipping of the BMPT with course grenade launchers, each of which was ruled by an irrational decision, which greatly complicated and increased the cost of the car. The installation and equipping of the BMPT with obsolete and inaccurate 30mm 2A42 guns was also criticized. However, we still do not have anything better. BMPT-72, certainly better than BMPT in the sense that it removed the "extra" AG and, respectively, two "extra" crew members. However, this machine was created in an initiative order and the Ministry of Defense was not tested, therefore, for the RF Ministry of Defense it does not exist, as it were. Nevertheless, in November of last year, in 2016, your humble servant literally belittled one of the deputies of the general director of NPK Uralvagonzavod to "punch" the shipment to Syria of BMPT or BMPT-72 at least with factory crews and "light" their participation in the Syrian war Videos on YouTube. This "advertising" move could radically stimulate the purchase of new-class combat vehicles, both the Russian Army and foreign customers. And now, at last, it seems, it has come to pass!
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2678157.html
As reported in his blog, Alexei Khlopotov (Gur Khan), Nizhny Tagil Uralvagonzavod is preparing to deploy a serial production of combat vehicles for the BMPT fire support, also known as the "Terminator." At present, about a dozen servicemen have arrived at the enterprise to learn how to operate these new machines. Within two weeks the sergeants passed a theoretical course on the design of the BMPT, and now they are studying the material part of the machine directly in the design bureau.
It is expected that purchases will begin in 2018. Currently, the number of purchased machines is not yet known, but, apparently, will amount to no less than 10 pieces.
The BMPT package will match the one in which these machines have already been supplied to Kazakhstan.
Crew BMPT - 5 people. Weapons: 4 Ataka-T missiles (Sturm-SM), 2 automatic 30 mm 2A42 cannons, 7.62mm PKT machine gun and 2 automatic 30mm AG-17D grenade launchers on the super-ground regiments.
The choice of this option is due to the fact that in this form the BMPT passed state tests and all necessary design documentation with the appropriate letter was properly drawn up for it, unlike the more modern and cheaper BMPT-72 "Terminator-2", which is not yet ready for serial production Production. At the same time, the BMPT can be upgraded by installing a commander's panorama with a thermal imaging channel.
The development of the BMPT was started in 1998-99 as a result of the generalization of the experience of fighting in Chechnya. In 2006, the BMPT completed state tests and was recommended for series production, which was to begin in 2010. For the tests, two copies of the BMPT were built, one of which was tested by real shelling, explosions on mines and landmines, proving high survivability. In anticipation of state orders, the first three serial corps were laid at Uralvagonzavod, however, according to Minister A.Serdyukov's decision, the program was closed. One of the motivations for this decision was the apparent obsolescence of the base machine - the T-90A tank, proclaimed by the first deputy defense minister V. Popovkin. Three pawned cars in 2010-2012 were completed for the Armed Forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan, where during the exercises they showed high efficiency.
Currently, the only existing prototype of the BMPT is dismantled for major repairs during which it will be brought to the appearance of the production car. At the same time it is planned that servicemen who arrived at the UVZ will participate in its assembly in order to better study the design. Upon returning to their unit, they will have to reproduce the experience gained.
The decision to adopt the BMPT into the armament of the Russian Army is conditioned by the analysis of the "Syrian" experience. The fighting in Syria has shown an urgent need for a specialized machine, "sharpened" for counter-terrorist operations. Unfortunately, the short-sighted decisions of the Ministry of Defense officials delayed the start of equipping the Russian Army with a BMPT for at least 8 years!
Probably, the first serial copies of the BMPT will go into service with the Taman Division and if not in 2018, then in 2019 they will pass a parade in Red Square, and then they will appear on the base of Khmeimim.
Gur Khan: BMPT "Terminator" (circa. 1999), developed during the Raman-99 R & D, was once severely criticized. Some experts considered the equipping of the BMPT with course grenade launchers, each of which was ruled by an irrational decision, which greatly complicated and increased the cost of the car. The installation and equipping of the BMPT with obsolete and inaccurate 30mm 2A42 guns was also criticized. However, we still do not have anything better. BMPT-72, certainly better than BMPT in the sense that it removed the "extra" AG and, respectively, two "extra" crew members. However, this machine was created in an initiative order and the Ministry of Defense was not tested, therefore, for the RF Ministry of Defense it does not exist, as it were. Nevertheless, in November of last year, in 2016, your humble servant literally belittled one of the deputies of the general director of NPK Uralvagonzavod to "punch" the shipment to Syria of BMPT or BMPT-72 at least with factory crews and "light" their participation in the Syrian war Videos on YouTube. This "advertising" move could radically stimulate the purchase of new-class combat vehicles, both the Russian Army and foreign customers. And now, at last, it seems, it has come to pass!
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2678157.html
0nillie0- Posts : 163
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George1 wrote:The Russian Ministry of Defense will purchase a batch of BMPT
As reported in his blog, Alexei Khlopotov (Gur Khan), Nizhny Tagil Uralvagonzavod is preparing to deploy a serial production of combat vehicles for the BMPT fire support, also known as the "Terminator." At present, about a dozen servicemen have arrived at the enterprise to learn how to operate these new machines. Within two weeks the sergeants passed a theoretical course on the design of the BMPT, and now they are studying the material part of the machine directly in the design bureau.
I hope that we will see in 2018 a variant fitted with the new grenade launcher, once this has passed state tests. Hopefully it will be remotely operated and combined with the commanders panoramic sight, which should come as part of the default configuration. I am not a big fan of the front mounted AGS-17 grenade launchers, and the position of the crew members needed to operate them. I feel like omitting them all together would be the best choice, and i don't think it would be in conflict with the earlier state test results. As for the integration of the newest grenade launcher coupled with a panoramic sight, this would off course be a new hurdle to overcome.
This is rather interesting move to be honest. it looks like we will see the BMPT in combat in the years to come. I do hope that, should they be deployed to Syria, that Russian personnel will be used to train local crews rather than operate the vehicles themselves.
GarryB- Posts : 28986
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I quite like the positioning of the 30mm grenade launchers on the upgraded BMP-2s where it is positioned rear centre of the turret with ammo stored either side and able to elevate independently but pointed by aiming the main gun.
Simple, sensible, practical.
Simple, sensible, practical.
0nillie0- Posts : 163
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For those who missed it in the Middle Eastern Military section : BMPT @ Hmeimim Air Base, Syria
Judging from the camouflage scheme (which is hardly visible tbh) it could be the very same demonstrator vehicle seen at RAE 2015. Note the Ataka launchers have been replaced with the slightlty better protected version found on the BMPT-72.
Judging from the camouflage scheme (which is hardly visible tbh) it could be the very same demonstrator vehicle seen at RAE 2015. Note the Ataka launchers have been replaced with the slightlty better protected version found on the BMPT-72.
George1- Posts : 16083
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http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2691139.html