Air Defence of VDV units

The chassis is the GM-352. It is much larger and heavier than BMD-4 and is definitely not air-droppable.

My mistake, but this:

The crawler-mounted system, codenamed Ptitselov (Fowler), is a hybrid of the well-known Pantsir-S2 cannon-missile system mounted on an air-droppable BMD-4M armored vehicle.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160507/1039232708/russia-missiles-defense.html#ixzz488uUI3dQ

Clearly says they are developing a tracked system called Fowler that is a hybrid of Pantsir-S2 and BMD-4M.

Well I guess we have to live with this until facts are no revealed. For me Sosna makes not really difference since is no tmuch lighter and by order og magnitude worse solution.

Actually as it is supposed to be replacing the SA-13, which in turn replaced the ZU-23 it is actually an enormous step up in performance... double the range with a time of flight to 10km of about 12 seconds... able to engage PGMs as well as aircraft and cruise missiles...

Note the Navy is also adopting the SOSNA in smaller vessels and Pantsir-S in larger vessels.

Besides 20km range to take down is real advantage for troops in area or concentration after drop.

Only if you can detect enemy aircraft at that range...

that is a lot of extra infrastructure they will have to carry around...

IMHO 57mm module with 200/300 ammo can make bette real than Sosna. Longer range and ceiling.

Not going to happen... even in a vehicle the size of the PT-76 they could barely get 80 rounds in that.. . a BMD-4M is much much smaller.

Sosna is far lighter than Pantsir. Simply count. Pantsir have two big radars, search and tracking radar with missile guiding radio transmitter. Two radars also mean more computers and processors, etc. Than you have to count additional power supply unit, that the complex could work. Tracked Pantsir is placed on GM-355, which is also used for Tor and Buk complexes and have enough space for all needed components. Buy the way, Tor is weighting 34 tons and tracked Pantsir for sure have similar weight as Tor. GM chassis weight 24 tons, so the rest of the complex weight 10 tons. Placing Pantsir in BMD-4M is the same as placing Tor-M2 in it.

I agree, but I think they have probably decided that a reduced Pantsir would allow engagement of aircraft before they fire their missiles, so overall would use fewer weapons than the shorter range SOSNA that would just have to deal with all the incoming PGMs.

SOSNA is very much like a two stage Kornet... in fact it is only about 10kgs heavier in terms of missile size...

Other problem is, that for now no one knows, how radars and their electronics will survive air dropping. It is not designed for such shocks as they are with landing after air drops. Weak points are electronic cards, waveguides, hydraulics, etc. Any breaks in them mean, that the system will not work. For air dropping they will need to increase strength of construction, what mean increasing weight.

You just need to look up US experience in this... the Mauler I think it was called.

GarryB wrote:
Note the Navy is also adopting the SOSNA in smaller vessels and Pantsir-S in larger vessels.

They definitely should on Buyans and Co instead of Gibka

GarryB wrote:

Besides 20km range to take down is real advantage for troops in area or concentration after drop.

Only if you can detect enemy aircraft at that range...
that is a lot of extra infrastructure they will have to carry around...

With technology progressing I would not be surprised if they mange to solve this problem. Eventually one machine with longer range radars and each TELAR with shorter range as backup mode but normally data is fed to it from radar machine.

GarryB wrote:

IMHO 57mm module with 200/300 ammo can make bette real than Sosna. Longer range and ceiling.

Not going to happen... even in a vehicle the size of the PT-76 they could barely get 80 rounds in that.. . a BMD-4M is much much smaller.

You are such a pessimist Garry, 80 rounds were in drum module ready to shoot in total 200 for Baikal 220M module. they managed to put it on BMP 3 so i presume with some restrictions why not on BMD4? 100mm gund they without many problems did manage.

GarryB wrote:

Sosna is far lighter than Pantsir. Simply count. Pantsir have two big radars, search and tracking radar with missile guiding radio transmitter. Two radars also mean more computers and processors, etc. Than you have to count additional power supply unit, that the complex could work. Tracked Pantsir is placed on GM-355, which is also used for Tor and Buk complexes and have enough space for all needed components. Buy the way, Tor is weighting 34 tons and tracked Pantsir for sure have similar weight as Tor. GM chassis weight 24 tons, so the rest of the complex weight 10 tons. Placing Pantsir in BMD-4M is the same as placing Tor-M2 in it.

I agree, but I think they have probably decided that a reduced Pantsir would allow engagement of aircraft before they fire their missiles, so overall would use fewer weapons than the shorter range SOSNA that would just have to deal with all the incoming PGMs.

SOSNA is very much like a two stage Kornet... in fact it is only about 10kgs heavier in terms of missile size...

We need to see what hybrid is summoned ot live but reducing radar part, removing guns/ammo and leaving 8 launch tubes might give interesting result to keep ckear huge envelope free over VDV guys...


BTW Pantsir´s missile is also kind of Hermes cousin right?

Russian airborne divisions get advanced portable air defense systems

The new short-range air defense missile systems need a smaller number of missiles for striking a target while the temperature range of its use has been expanded to minus 50 degrees Celsius

PATRIOT PARK (Moscow Region), July 27. /TASS/. All the Russian airborne and air assault divisions have been rearmed with Verba new man-portable air defense missile systems, Airborne Force Commander Colonel-General Andrei Serdyukov said on Thursday.

"We are currently completing the delivery of the fourth-generation Verba man-portable air defense missile systems to the Airborne Force. As of today, all airborne divisions have been supplied with these systems and now efforts are under way to deliver them to separate airborne assault brigades in a planned manner," the commander said on the eve of the 87th anniversary of establishing the Russian Airborne Force.

The Verba man-portable air defense missile systems are capable of striking tactical aviation planes, attack helicopters, cruise missiles and remotely controlled aircraft in oncoming and catch-up courses in daytime and at night in the conditions of the target’s visual visibility, including amid background and artificial interference.

The new systems are capable of hitting targets with low infrared emissions in a head-on engagement at the far boundary of the destruction zone at extremely low altitudes, the commander said.

As compared to their predecessors, the new short-range air defense missile systems feature expanded combat capabilities and destroy targets highly effectively, despite powerful optical counter-measures, the commander said.

As compared to the previous man-portable air defense missile systems, the Verba complex has its area of engaging targets with low emissions increased several times and its protection against powerful pyrotechnical interference boosted several dozen times.

While the procedure of using the new man-portable air defense missile system in combat is similar to the procedure of employing its predecessors, the Verba system needs a smaller number of missiles for striking a target while the temperature range of its use has been expanded to minus 50 degrees Celsius, the commander said.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/957965

Russia’s Airborne Force to get mobile air defense system by 2020

It was reported earlier that Russia was creating the world’s first air-droppable anti-aircraft missile system on the basis of the BMD-4M armored vehicle

MOSCOW, August 2. /TASS/. The most advanced air-droppable short-range air defense missile system code-named Ptitselov (Fowler) will become operational in Russia’s Airborne Force in 2020, a source in the Russian defense sector told TASS on Wednesday.

"The development of the Ptitselov is currently at the stage of experimental design work, which is expected to be completed by the end of 2019 and from 2020 this short-range complex based on the BMD-4M combat vehicle is set to become operational in the Airborne Force’s air defense missile units," the source said.

"By its combat capabilities, including by the altitude and the range of target engagement, the Ptitselov will surpass the air defense systems currently operational in the Airborne Force by two times," the source added.

The source did not give the Ptitselov’s major characteristics but noted that it was both aircraft transportable and air-droppable from military transport planes.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/958706

The vehicle that will replace the STRELA-10 (SA-13) in airborne units (VDV) will be the PTITSELOV.

It is based on the SOSNA system mounted on a BMD-4 chassis.

Excellent...

For those not familiar with the SA-13 and this new system, the advantages and disadvantages are as follows:

SA-13
Advantages:

Light
Mobile
Relatively cheap
No radar emissions except ranging radar (probably not much used... if the IR sensor can detect the target it is probably in range... so if you get a lock you can probably fire).
Fire and forget.

Disadvantages:

Lacks range... 5km is less than some new ATGMs on helos.
IR seeker got better with age but still not ideal guidance.
6 ready to fire missiles (Tunguska = 8 )
Replaced in land forces by Tunguska which has more missiles with better range and also guns and better sensors... Tunguska is more expensive than SA-13, but cheaper and better performing than the SA-13 and the Shilka in all areas.
Mounted on an MTLB chassis which is not air droppable AFAIK.

SOSNA-R

Advantages:

Very high speed missiles, so 8 second engagement time to 10km range.
10km Range.
No radar emissions.
Compact lightweight two stage missiles with 12 ready to fire.
Laser beam riding missiles with no optics facing the target that can be dazzled by DIRCMs or effected by flares or smoke.
Relatively cheap guidance should make the missiles very cheap to use in numbers... which is important for SAMs and ATGMs where there will be plenty of targets to use them against... you don't want a very expensive system like Javelin that is so expensive you get limited numbers of missiles because they cost too much... a soldier in the field does not care how much they cost when it comes to killing the enemy and keeping themselves safe... and cheap weapons make that acceptable...
BMD-4 vehicle chassis... fully air droppable.
Depending upon the warhead could possibly be used against light ground armour and light fortifications.
In theory right up to impact the engagement could be aborted if the operator wanted to... something you can't do with IR guidance.

Disadvantages:

Not in service yet.
Might be some bugs to be ironed out yet, but these are small, light, fast, and should not be expensive.
Not fire and forget, but flight speed means about 8 seconds flight time to 10km range targets, and I would suspect auto target tracking so the operator jsut launches the missile and does not need to manually track the target to impact.

Hole wrote:Ptsilov is Sosna for the VDV. A good first step, but they need something like Buk-M3 or S-350, a smaller brother of the S-300V. The lengthened Chassis of the BTR-MDM should be able to carry 4 9M96 missiles.

PS: a smaller brother of the Iskander would also be useful.

No, any of those medium or long range SAMs are too heavy to be air dropable. If VDV secure enough big are, that Il-76 could land, than they could bring regular Buks or S-300V.

As mentioned... too heavy and not mobile...

They want something they can air drop and that can fire while moving cross country so it does not hold up the rest of the force.

If they need something heavier air cover could be used to support their operations and protect from air attack too... but their best defence will be their mobility and surprise.

I would say Sonsa, verba in a dhijit and strelets configuration would be enough maybe even a
zu-23-2ZOM1 using verba would also be good.

GarryB on another thread mentioned a trailer mount with Sonsa and a single 30mm gun if they put this on a BMD I think if great and ideal.

Another possibility but the system would be lighter version of TOR giving the capability to fire on the move but number of missiles would be reduced for sure. Another downside is VDV often work behind enemy lines so you might not want to risk such a sophisticated system falling into the hands of the enemy.

But as I've said Sonsa with a 30mm gun system would be ideal and the 30mm would also offer the vehicle some offensive capabilityin ground attack role if needed.

The whole point of the VDV is air drop vehicles and surprise and speed.

As stated by others medium to long range will be provided but other forces.

New means of air defense in the 106th Guards airborne division of Tula

As reported on December 20, 2018, the Information Support Group of the Airborne Forces of the Russian Federation, units of the air defense forces of the Airborne Forces are mastering the latest military equipment to combat high-speed airborne targets.



Fighting vehicle of the Strela-10MN anti-aircraft missile system from the 1st Guards anti-aircraft missile regiment of the 106th Guards airborne assault Tula Red Banner Order of the Kutuzov division of the Airborne Forces of the Russian Federation, December 2018 (c) Russian Ministry of Defense

The newest anti-aircraft missile systems (ZRK) and air reconnaissance equipment began to develop the paratroopers of the units of military air defense of the airborne formation of the Airborne Forces (Naro-Fominsk) [the 1st Guards anti-aircraft missile regiment of the 106th Guards - landing Tula Red Banner Order of the Kutuzov Division. - bmpd].

In addition to the development of new MANPADS and air defense missile systems with increased firing capabilities, range, all-weather capability and use, regardless of the time of day, unique guidance tools, as well as the Verba and Strela-10MN training complexes, the airborne air defense units learn how to use the low-altitude radar target detectors and modern automated intelligence tools.

New weapons and military equipment, made on the basis of the BTR-MDM "Shell" in the air defense units of the Airborne Forces comes under contracts concluded in accordance with the State Defense Order.







https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3467368.html

Saw a video some years ago with these vehicle shown... anyone seen these before?

Both seem to be recon or air defence sensor based vehicles... one IR and one radar based.

We quite forget for air defense in VDV and miss this one. Typhoon-PVO is made from Typhoon-VDV, similar as Drok 82 mm mortar. Considering, that VDV units are arming with new Verba MANPADS, those vehicles will for sure go to VDV MANPAD teams. Prototype have usual Kord machine gun on the roof for protection. Serial one could also get RWS with 12,7 mm machine gun for self protection. MANPAD could be launched from the roof opening, when driving. Two prototypes were also tested in Clear sky competition in China. This MRAP vehicle give quite a lot of space and good protection to MANPAD teams.

Not to mention excellent speed and mobility behind enemy lines even if the roads are ordinary... speed is important... and wheeled vehicles can get up to some very decent speeds and travel long distances without problems... tracked vehicles are good for short movements over difficult terrain but not so great for very long moves... and motorway quality roads don't allow them to go much faster than cross country...

I'm guessing the tracked and wheeled vehicles for the VDV will go to different batallions

The wheeled are more for rapid-deployment and in friendly or neutral territory. But can be airdropped if needed.

While the tracked vehicles are more for airdrops or where infastructure is just very bad.

Actions of anti-aircraft missile batteries of the Airborne Forces

The Ptitselov amphibious air defense system will enter service with the Airborne Forces in 2024.

The Ptitselov (Eng: Bird catcher) amphibious anti-aircraft missile system (SAM) will enter service with the Airborne Forces in 2024. This was announced on Tuesday by the commander of the Airborne Forces, Colonel-General Andrey Serdyukov.

"The Ptitselov air defense system will enter service with the Airborne Forces in 2024. It is currently undergoing testing" – he said on the sidelines of the Army-2021 International Military-Technical Forum.

According to him, deliveries of air defense systems will be carried out side-by-side. "We will buy as many air defense systems as we need to equip our four anti - aircraft missile regiments" – Serdyukov added.

Source: 

They were talking about extending its range up to 20km and that is why it is being delayed because presumably they are using a bigger more powerful booster rocket motor stage.

This would be a serious improvement but not increase costs by too much.

No radar so enemy air power would have a hard time finding this vehicle, while it will be using optical sensors as well as shared air defence network information to find enemy aircraft to passively shoot them down.

It should also be excellent for shooting down all kinds of drones in a cost effective way.

https://vpk.name/news/576600_zenitnye_kompleksy_pticelov_nachnut_postupat_v_voiska_cherez_god.html

В следующем году на вооружение воздушно-десантных и десантно-штурмовых дивизий Российской армии начнут поступать мобильные комплексы противовоздушной обороны "Птицелов". Об этом сообщается в материале И.Боровкова "ПВО для "крылатой пехоты", опубликованном в февральском номере журнала Министерства обороны Российской Федерации "Армейский сборник".

Планируется, что этими средствами ближнего действия будут оснащены батареи зенитных ракетных полков соединений.

Как и большинство современной техники отечественных ВДВ, новинка создается на платформе боевой машины десанта БМД-4М "Садовница". Ее боевая масса - 13600 кг, максимальная скорость по шоссе - 70 км/ч, на плаву - 10 км/ч.

На ней будет установлен модуль перспективного комплекса "Сосна". Ранее на проходящих в Подмосковье международных военно-технических форумах "Армия" это изделие уже демонстрировалось на легкобронированном транспортере МТ-ЛБ, боевой машине пехоты БМП-3 и бронетранспортере БТР-82А.

Next year, the airborne and airborne assault divisions of the Russian Army will begin to receive Ptitselov mobile air defense systems. This is reported in the material by I. Borovkov "Air defense for" winged infantry", published in the February issue of the magazine of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation "Army Collection".

It is planned that batteries of anti-aircraft missile regiments of formations will be equipped with these short-range weapons.

Like most of the modern equipment of the domestic airborne forces, the novelty is being created on the platform of the BMD-4M "Gardener" airborne combat vehicle. Its combat weight is 13,600 kg, the maximum speed on the highway is 70 km / h, afloat - 10 km / h.

It will be equipped with a module of the promising Sosna complex. Earlier, at the Army international military-technical forums in the Moscow region, this product was already demonstrated on the MT-LB lightly armored transporter, the BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicle and the BTR-82A armored personnel carrier.

Next year VDV air defense units will start receiving Pticelov air defense complex (Sosna placed on BMD-4M vehicle) in their AD batteries.